How did the early churches operate?

[kross]

When the angel salutes Mary, he calls Her "kecheritomene," that is, "full of grace" or "perfected by grace."

Perfected by grace would mean she wasn't perfect until she was perfected. Grace being unmerritted favor, it would indicate that this means she was made perfect by GOD's grace, not by any sinless life she may have lead.

If she were sinless, than she would be perfected by her works. Since it is of grace, it is not of works. You assume this grace to have been from birth, yet you have showed us a scripture that would indicated GOD had perfected her by grace and not "kept her perfect" by grace.

[Smalcald]

What's wrong with that? Why do you think that there is any need whatsoever for man to come up with something "better"?

Oh no doubt we cannot come up with anything better. But there is a need for knowing what we DO believe ABOUT scripture, simply saying what we believe is all the Christian statements of faith are, that is it and they are based only on scripture.

God appointed apostles for a reason, God told those apostles to appoint teachers and leaders and told Christians to follow those leaders for a reason. Now the Creeds have indeed proved themselves as great tools against heresy. Most heretics claim that they ONLY believe in scripture. For example the modern heretics who refuse to accept the Trinity for example claim that they only use the bible, how do we say, well no Christians don't believe that, we believe this. It is why Worthy has a statement of faith, which by the way is largely based on the Creeds.

You put ten people in a room who have never read the bible with no instruction, no creeds no teaching by Christians; you will get ten different faiths.

Or the HOLY SPIRIT will be there and you will get one

That would be nice.

[nebula]

When the angel salutes Mary, he calls Her "kecheritomene," that is, "full of grace" or "perfected by grace."

Perfected by grace would mean she wasn't perfect until she was perfected. Grace being unmerritted favor, it would indicate that this means she was made perfect by GOD's grace, not by any sinless life she may have lead.

If she were sinless, than she would be perfected by her works. Since it is of grace, it is not of works. You assume this grace to have been from birth, yet you have showed us a scripture that would indicated GOD had perfected her by grace and not "kept her perfect" by grace.

Thank-you, kross!

[leoxiii]

The disciples who specifically went ahead into the villages Jesus was preparing to come to Lk 10:16, were told that they were the representatives and mouth-pieces of Jesus Himself when they said and did what He instructed them to say and do....In that sense what they said was infallible, but again they were not infallible people.

What about when a person interprets the words of Scripture?

Do you really think that Jesus left His Church with no way to know if the words of Scripture were being interpreted properly or not?

Do you really think that Jesus founded a Church in which contradictory teachings could not be resolved?

Listen to the words of Jesus:

Matthew 18:17 And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.

Does He really mean that we can search around until we find a church that does not treat us as a heathen or a publican?

HE left us the HOLY SPIRIT

HE left us prophets, teachers and preachers. Men will always reject HIS teachings, HIS people will not.

HOw they view themselves and what they do is not addressed in this passage, only the actions of the church are addressed. If one church kicks them out, they may go to another church. That is not for anyone but them to deal with (and the other church)

How many churches did Jesus found?

You keep telling me that all believers have the Holy Spirit guiding them in discerning doctrine. But I never seen evidence of that.

All I see, to quote Martin Luther, is that there are as many different doctrines as there are heads out there.

One church kicks them out as heretics, and another welcomes them with open arms as true believers.

You cannot seriously ask me to believe the Holy Spirit is enlightening and guiding in both cases.

[leoxiii]

3). a third Apostle named James must be invented.

No not really, but what you are failing to understand is that James, the brother of Jesus, was not one of Jesus disciples. He is the one who wrote the book of James. So yes, there was a third person, a man named James who was the brother of Jesus.

The thing that is so disturbing is that Catholics defend the perpetual virginity of Mary myth in order to protect the integrity of the roman catholic "church," and not because it is really biblically true. This has nothing to do with actual truth, but with protecting an institution that has deluded itself into thinking that it cannot be challenged nor be wrong on any point.

It is biblically true. Otherwise I would not defend it.

Paul clearly calls this James an Apostle.

You want to do some sleight of hand and say he is only a disciple.

It is not I, my friend, who am ignoring a biblical truth here.

[kross]

The disciples who specifically went ahead into the villages Jesus was preparing to come to Lk 10:16, were told that they were the representatives and mouth-pieces of Jesus Himself when they said and did what He instructed them to say and do....In that sense what they said was infallible, but again they were not infallible people.

What about when a person interprets the words of Scripture?

Do you really think that Jesus left His Church with no way to know if the words of Scripture were being interpreted properly or not?

Do you really think that Jesus founded a Church in which contradictory teachings could not be resolved?

Listen to the words of Jesus:

Matthew 18:17 And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.

Does He really mean that we can search around until we find a church that does not treat us as a heathen or a publican?

HE left us the HOLY SPIRIT

HE left us prophets, teachers and preachers. Men will always reject HIS teachings, HIS people will not.

HOw they view themselves and what they do is not addressed in this passage, only the actions of the church are addressed. If one church kicks them out, they may go to another church. That is not for anyone but them to deal with (and the other church)

How many churches did Jesus found?

You keep telling me that all believers have the Holy Spirit guiding them in discerning doctrine. But I never seen evidence of that.

All I see, to quote Martin Luther, is that there are as many different doctrines as there are heads out there.

One church kicks them out as heretics, and another welcomes them with open arms as true believers.

You cannot seriously ask me to believe the Holy Spirit is enlightening and guiding in both cases.

no, I would not have you believe that. I do believe that GOD sends out prophets and teachers who teach the truth. I also believe there are those who take the position of teachers who teach lies. Most Christians do not open the Bible to find out what is truth and what is lies. So, many of them follow the lies. These are not necessarily unsaved people, as most of the false doctrins do not relate to salvation.

Still, there are those who teach doctrins that relate to salvation that are not true. Yet, even these doctrins are more an add on to what is necessary than taking away from it.

Through it all, GOD knows those who are HIS and HE is able to keep them and present them blameless before the throne.

It still comes down to determining who to believe and who not to. You have made you choice in that regard, as have most.

There with stands the difference between having a religion about JESUS CHRIST and having a relationship with HIM. The relationship is eternal, the religion is temporary. The relationship is wrought by GOD and is GOD reaching down to man. The religion is wrought by man and is an attempt to reach up and grasp GOD. In the end, men can not grasp GOD, but GOD can grasp and hold men.

[kross]

3). a third Apostle named James must be invented.

No not really, but what you are failing to understand is that James, the brother of Jesus, was not one of Jesus disciples. He is the one who wrote the book of James. So yes, there was a third person, a man named James who was the brother of Jesus.

The thing that is so disturbing is that Catholics defend the perpetual virginity of Mary myth in order to protect the integrity of the roman catholic "church," and not because it is really biblically true. This has nothing to do with actual truth, but with protecting an institution that has deluded itself into thinking that it cannot be challenged nor be wrong on any point.

It is biblically true. Otherwise I would not defend it.

Paul clearly calls this James an Apostle.

You want to do some sleight of hand and say he is only a disciple.

It is not I, my friend, who am ignoring a biblical truth here.

You know there is an apostle called James and one of JESUS' brothers was named James, right?

[Guest shiloh357]

3). a third Apostle named James must be invented.

No not really, but what you are failing to understand is that James, the brother of Jesus, was not one of Jesus disciples. He is the one who wrote the book of James. So yes, there was a third person, a man named James who was the brother of Jesus.

The thing that is so disturbing is that Catholics defend the perpetual virginity of Mary myth in order to protect the integrity of the roman catholic "church," and not because it is really biblically true. This has nothing to do with actual truth, but with protecting an institution that has deluded itself into thinking that it cannot be challenged nor be wrong on any point.

It is biblically true. Otherwise I would not defend it.

Paul clearly calls this James an Apostle.

You want to do some sleight of hand and say he is only a disciple.

It is not I, my friend, who am ignoring a biblical truth here.

I did not say he was a disciple. I simply pointed out that there is another James other than the two you mentioned who played a prominent role in the Church and who was not an apostle. Facts is facts.

[Botz]

The disciples who specifically went ahead into the villages Jesus was preparing to come to Lk 10:16, were told that they were the representatives and mouth-pieces of Jesus Himself when they said and did what He instructed them to say and do....In that sense what they said was infallible, but again they were not infallible people.

What about when a person interprets the words of Scripture?

Do you really think that Jesus left His Church with no way to know if the words of Scripture were being interpreted properly or not?

Do you really think that Jesus founded a Church in which contradictory teachings could not be resolved?

Listen to the words of Jesus:

Matthew 18:17 And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.

Does He really mean that we can search around until we find a church that does not treat us as a heathen or a publican?

I'm afraid you are losing me completely...nevertheless I will try and stay with you, and reply as best I can.

1. Q. What about when a person interprets the words of Scripture? A. Not sure what you mean...who interprets Scripture? Scripture means what it says...it is a question of understanding what is said...some parts are not easy, and there are different schools of thought on certain passages...nevertheless Scripture itself means exactly what it says. The Holy Spirit helps us in our understanding of what has been written as it requires spiritual perception.

2. Q. Do you really think that Jesus left His Church with no way to know if the words of Scripture were being interpreted properly or not?

A. Again He did not leave us without a Helper...the Holy Spirit of Truth....but if you mean is there a body of Believers with the special anointing to declare the revelation of the Scriptures, I would say no, I do not believe there is one group of people these days that has been given this function, or carries on the tradition of the early Church...where people like Peter and Paul, not only taught Scripture, but wrote it under the guidence of the Holy Spirit...that has stopped.

3. Q. Do you really think that Jesus founded a Church in which contradictory teachings could not be resolved?

A. I have always found that the 'Church' is comprised of people...and they are not perfect...therefore sometimes there is controversy within the Church over certain teachings....it's not that what is written in Scripture isn't perfect, but G-d entrusted it to imperfect people...nevertheless, in spite of our natural weaknesses, G-d works in us and through us.

4. Q. Listen to the words of Jesus:

Matthew 18:17 And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.

Does He really mean that we can search around until we find a church that does not treat us as a heathen or a publican?

A. I think you are trying to use this as a proof text that there can only be the One True Church....but Pauls letters were sent all over the place to the Church in Corinth, and the Church in Ephesus, and the Church in Galatia etc...and what he was establishing was a precedent for the authority of the leaders in these Churches in the way they admonished sinners.

There is no reason at all why this should be ignored now in the worldwide Church...but an unrepentant sinner can go to another area where he isn't known, and start over....and I daresay even in Pauls time this was still possible and probably went on, but there isn't a great deal that can be done about that.

[Guest shiloh357]

What about when a person interprets the words of Scripture?

Do you really think that Jesus left His Church with no way to know if the words of Scripture were being interpreted properly or not?

That question demonstrates a flawed understanding concerning the nature of "interpretation." Interpretation is an objective activity where one attempts to understand the intent of the author. Interpretation is not a personal or subjective action. Interpretation by nature, cannot be legislated to one person or one group. That makes the text servant to the whims of one group.

Before the Bible was available to all people, the church maintained that it alone had the right to tell people what the Bible said and what it meant. It was read in the pulpit in Latin, a language the common man did not know. The common man had no way of determining if what he was being told was correct.

This left the RCC free to claim the Bible said anything they wanted to say to keep the people under their thumb and any rejection of church teaching was punishable up to and including death.

Do you really think that Jesus founded a Church in which contradictory teachings could not be resolved?

Listen to the words of Jesus:

Matthew 18:17 And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.

Does He really mean that we can search around until we find a church that does not treat us as a heathen or a publican?

You are missapplying that passage. Jesus is talking about what to do if someone sins against you. He is not talking about how to resolve doctrinal disputes.