Were the Twelve and the Seventy Unique ?

[OneLight]

Let's take a closer look at the sending of the 12 and the sending of the seventy. Pay close attention to the differences in scripture.

Luke 9:1-6

Sending Out the Twelve

Then He called His twelve disciples together and gave them power and authority over all demons, and to cure diseases. He sent them to preach the kingdom of God and to heal the sick. And He said to them,

[KC02]

I'm sorry but I do not see any major difference. You are trying to show the apostles had special miracles?

In both cases the purpose was to preach the gospel and heal the sick.

Lk 10:19 shows the 70 had the same power as the 12. In Mk 9:38 we find other people the disciples didn't even know casting out devils.

Let's take a closer look at the sending of the 12 and the sending of the seventy. Pay close attention to the differences in scripture.

Luke 9:1-6

Sending Out the Twelve

Then He called His twelve disciples together and gave them power and authority over all demons, and to cure diseases. He sent them to preach the kingdom of God and to heal the sick. And He said to them, "Take nothing for the journey, neither staffs nor bag nor bread nor money; and do not have two tunics apiece.

"Whatever house you enter, stay there, and from there depart. And whoever will not receive you, when you go out of that city, shake off the very dust from your feet as a testimony against them."

So they departed and went through the towns, preaching the gospel and healing everywhere.

This happened between the time the Apostles were sent and the seventy were sent.

1. Herod Seeks to See Jesus
   
2. Feeding the Five Thousand (after the Apostles returned)
   
3. Peter Confesses Jesus as the Christ
   
4. Jesus Predicts His Death and Resurrection
   
5. Take Up the Cross and Follow Him
   
6. Jesus Transfigured on the Mount
   
7. A Boy Is Healed
   
8. Jesus Again Predicts His Death
   
9. Who Is the Greatest?
   
10. Jesus Forbids Sectarianism
    
11. A Samaritan Village Rejects the Savior
    
12. The Cost of Discipleship
    

Luke 10:1-12

The Seventy Sent Out

After these things the Lord appointed seventy others also, and sent them two by two before His face into every city and place where He Himself was about to go. Then He said to them, "The harvest truly is great, but the laborers are few; therefore pray the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into His harvest. Go your way; behold, I send you out as lambs among wolves. Carry neither money bag, knapsack, nor sandals; and greet no one along the road. But whatever house you enter, first say, 'Peace to this house.' And if a son of peace is there, your peace will rest on it; if not, it will return to you. And remain in the same house, eating and drinking such things as they give, for the laborer is worthy of his wages. Do not go from house to house. Whatever city you enter, and they receive you, eat such things as are set before you. And heal the sick there, and say to them, 'The kingdom of God has come near to you.' But whatever city you enter, and they do not receive you, go out into its streets and say, 'The very dust of your city which clings to us we wipe off against you. Nevertheless know this, that the kingdom of God has come near you.' But I say to you that it will be more tolerable in that Day for Sodom than for that city.

Now, what differences do you see?

[OneLight]

Then you did not compare them well enough. The very first sentence of Luke 9:1 states that Jesus gave them power and authority over all demons and to cure all diseases. You will not find this anywhere in Luke 10:1-12 when Jesus sent out the seventy.

You mention Luke 10-19, let's look.

Luke:10:17-20

The Seventy Return with Joy

Then the seventy returned with joy, saying,

[Guest shiloh357]

QUOTE (shiloh357 @ Oct 25 2009, 11:41 PM)

No Jesus did not make any such promise that all believers would see the signs of the apostle evident in their lives. John 14:12 has nothing to do with that.

Apparently you believe there are two different sets of signs -- one for the apostles and one for the rest of us. Jesus never taught any such thing. To me, a miracle is a miracle. What is more miraculous than a miracle?

Did the 70 have less miracles manifested than the apostles?

The problem is that we have a demonstration of the differences in Scripture. For instance, where is raising the dead mentioned as a gift of the spirit promised to all believers for all time??

QUOTE

And tell me this, in what sense did Jesus use the term "greater?" In terms of quality, what kind of miracles greater than raising the dead should we be seeing?

I don't care what one believes about the term "greater."

Which is why your theology is so sloppy. It is very important to understand what Jesus meant. How can we correctly ascertain how to live if we don't bother to understand what the author/speaker is trying to convey. What you care about is promoting a meaning that bolsters your assertions. You don't care about the intent of the author/speaker, and that is a weakness in your approach.

We can't even agree on the meaning of "He that believeth on me," although we could ask any elementary school child and they would know immediately.

It is pretty straight forward, I think. The problem is that you still have not supplied one Scripture that refers to us ALL as apostles, nor have you supplied one scripture that states that the signs of an apostle are for all believers.

Nowhere does the Bible say that God reserved the best miracles for the "apostolic age."

Who said anything about signs of the apostles being the "best miracles?" I said they were "unique." "Unique" does not mean "better."

To the contrary, Jesus talked about greater works. Whatever you think about "greater" I might could go along with. I suppose that ANY miracle today is greater in the sense that it proves that Jesus rose from the dead.

Well, that is your subjective view. It is pretty clear that "greater" does not refer to types or quality, as Jesus raised people from the dead. The only sense that fits the context is that greater refers to the fact that miracles would occur within a greater scope of humanity.

[OneLight]

Let's also look at the scripture where you are debating the meaning of "greater".

(John 14:12 [KJV])

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

What was Jesus referring to? Works. These works Jesus mention do not directly point to miracles, but works in Him. There are many many works we do in Christ. Why would they be greater? Because He was going to the Father in order to send the Helper, the Holy Spirit. Before, they did not have the Holy Spirit to teach, guide, correct them when they were doing works for Jesus, but they soon would. Jesus gave them authority, not the full baptism of the Holy Spirit.

[KC02]

I don't care what one believes about the term "greater."

Which is why your theology is so sloppy. It is very important to understand what Jesus meant. How can we correctly ascertain how to live if we don't bother to understand what the author/speaker is trying to convey. What you care about is promoting a meaning that bolsters your assertions. You don't care about the intent of the author/speaker, and that is a weakness in your approach.

I simply did not want to get sidetracked over a red herring. I agree that it is probably an increase in scope (worldwide). Although nothing is stopping God from doing some great things right now. He is still sovereign despite small religious ideas of how He must do everything.

We can't even agree on the meaning of "He that believeth on me," although we could ask any elementary school child and they would know immediately.

It is pretty straight forward, I think. The problem is that you still have not supplied one Scripture that refers to us ALL as apostles, nor have you supplied one scripture that states that the signs of an apostle are for all believers.

I never said we were all apostles. That's silly. I'm not even sure what you are arguing about. Are you saying that only the apostles could raise the dead? Is that suppose to the hardest of all miracles? Excuse me, most unique of all?

St. Augustine wrote about blind eyes being opened and the dead being raised in the 4 or 5 century. There were no apostles in his day. In any case, the gift of miracles definitely includes raising the dead. It wasn't exclusive to the apostles but for all "believers at large."

[EricH]

What is the teaching of most of you here regarding the disciples that were sent out by Jesus ?

Were they gifted with powers and insight that no believer since then has been given?

Were they "set apart" different from all other believers?

It would be more accurate to say that the original disciples/apostles were/are unique in terms of their experience, calling and ministry. It would make sense that the gifts that accompany them would be unique (such as people getting healed under Peter's shadow).

That is not to say that God does not operate supernaturally through believers today, but no one today possesses the unique ministry that they had.

I would agree

[lekh l'kha]

Funny how the subject popped up here just when I'd placed it up on the net showing the results of the study i did, and put a link in my signature:

THE BIBLICAL RECORD

The records of (and references to) signs, wonders and miracles etc, from the book of Acts through to the book of Jude:-

1. Total number of records of signs, wonders and miracles performed by the disciples of Jesus (from Acts through to Revelation):

Ten:-

Act.2: 43; Act.5: 12; Act.6: 8; Act.8: 6, 13; Act.14: 3; Act.15: 12; Rom. 15: 19; 2Co.12: 12; Heb.2: 4.

Nine of the above ten are records of (or references to) signs, wonders and miracles which were performed at the hand of the apostles:-

Act.2: 43 (the apostles); Act.5: 12 (the apostles); Act.8: 6, 13 (the apostle Philip); Act.14: 3 and Act.15: 12 (the apostle Paul and his traveling companion, Barnabas); Rom.15: 19 and 2Cor.12: 12 (the apostle Paul); Heb.2: 4 (the apostles

[Franky67]

"Has Jesus personally come to you and chosen you, as He did the original 12 and Paul? I agree that we are apostles, as the Greek meaning means "one sent". The question is who has sends us? The church we attend? Was it a personal invitation given to you, by a personal appearance of Christ? There is a difference. People who believe that the offices are the same today, especially Apostleship, having the exact same authority as those who were personally sent by Christ, are the reason for so much false teachings coming from false apostles."

In order to accomplish what Jesus instructed them to do , all "sent ones" must perform the exact same tasks, nothing the 12 did can be omitted today. We can just do more in quantity than they did.

Has Jesus personally come to me ? Yes He has. The new birth is a supernatural event where I accepted His call, by His Holy Spirit, who is just as real as Jesus Himself, He said that, when He told the disciples that He must leave them, but that He would send the Comforter.

Jesus did not even hint that the work of the Comforter would be any different than His.

Who sends us ? How could one ask such a question ? The Lord God sends us. It's the Trinity.

In a face to face discussion recently on this subject, I was asked the question, "Could you write a book in the new testament, as the true apostle Matthew did.?

My answer was yes, The Holy Spirit can write through me the same as He did Matthew.

Luke wrote a book, and he was not listed among the twelve.

The reason this topic has drawn so much fire is that it is the root belief that created cessationism , which has divided the body of Christ for centuries, and still does today.

The unanswered question today is,

"Why do followers of Christ today require less power and delegated authority now, than they did at first."

[KC02]

So it is your belief that God will heal the sick and raise them up after they are dead?

Isn't that like asking God for rent money and God saying, "Sure! But only after you are dead." We will not need healing when we die. We need it now.

It isn't our job to make excuses for God.

Funny how the subject popped up here just when I'd placed it up on the net showing the results of the study i did, and put a link in my signature:

THE BIBLICAL RECORD

The records of (and references to) signs, wonders and miracles etc, from the book of Acts through to the book of Jude:-

1. Total number of records of signs, wonders and miracles performed by the disciples of Jesus (from Acts through to Revelation):

Ten:-

Act.2: 43; Act.5: 12; Act.6: 8; Act.8: 6, 13; Act.14: 3; Act.15: 12; Rom. 15: 19; 2Co.12: 12; Heb.2: 4.

Nine of the above ten are records of (or references to) signs, wonders and miracles which were performed at the hand of the apostles:-

Act.2: 43 (the apostles); Act.5: 12 (the apostles); Act.8: 6, 13 (the apostle Philip); Act.14: 3 and Act.15: 12 (the apostle Paul and his traveling companion, Barnabas); Rom.15: 19 and 2Cor.12: 12 (the apostle Paul); Heb.2: 4 (the apostles