Guest yod Posted October 30, 2009 Share Posted October 30, 2009 Then the Holy Spirit moved upon the Disciples and the 70. We, on the other hand, have the Holy Spirit indwelling us. The reason that great healing is not occurring today is because we do not have the faith of a mustard seed. We have faith, but there is also doubt; this doubt prevents the Holy Spirit from doing all He can do through us. God is moving supernaturally today. I can't imagine anyone thinking He is not. The problem is that we get presumptuous in our assumption that because God did something through the apostles, that He should do the same thing through us. God is not obligated to us for that. It is very dangerous to take stories of the apostles and make doctrines out of them. amen! The biggest difference today from the original faith community is their connection to Israel, imo. Please don't misunderstand...I'm not saying that Israel is some kind of lucky charm but rather that the context of the biblical narrative about a few fishermen on the Galilee has been lost over centuries of looking at it through greco-roman lenses. The "church" threw off the spirit of the sons of Zion since the second century and replaced it with a greek spirit. There is more humanism in our churches than we realize, just like someone with bad breath doesn't know it like the people around them would. These were very simple people and that is why Yeshua chose them. If being a simple person of faith is unique, then yes, they were very unique. I believe there are many unique (simple) saints still today and they are in every denomination and culture. They mostly go un-noticed because they don't demand attention for their works. However, for most christians, our understanding is still formed by a greco-roman historical church and this causes us to make things much more complicated (and overly religious) than they need to be. Yeshua didn't have to "unteach" these 12 fishermen/tax collectors/sinners what the religious people of that day thought they knew. As Sam Nadler says, "you can be too big for God but you can never be too small" and that was (and still is) the problem. It's one thing to have faith that God will do something through you, and another to presume you can dictate what that is. If we make our plans and then let the Lord direct our steps, we will always go a different path than we would have chosen. It's the difference between human nature and divine predestination. I think there are many issues which prove the Pharisees have been replaced by christian theologians since the early church fathers. Most christians equate "pharisee" with "hypocrite" today but that is not the way I am defining the term. The Pharisees were the conservative christians of their time. (The Saducees and scribes were the liberal christians of their day. Most christians don't realize that after the resurrection, thousands and thousands of Pharisees got saved. I've heard estimates as high as one million jews worldwide who put their faith in Yeshua...yet they were mostly separated from the gentiles who were converting over seconadary issues of works and the torah). The Pharisees began as a movement to oppose the hellenistic (greek humanism) onslaught of what we would call the "civilized world" today. They were striving for religious purity even if they missed the importance of faith over works, just as many christians still do today. But my point is that the Pharisees knew the scriptures better than anyone. Unfortunately they had God all figured out so when He didn't follow the exact path they had presumed He should do, they couldn't see Him. So Yeshua chose humble men who knew they were nothing but were still connected to the heritage God gave them in Israel. They operated in the spirit of the sons of Zion which is a heart-to-heart relationship based on community with each other. All they really "had" was trust in their friend, the rabbi of Kefar Nahum (Capernaum) and that was enough to change the world forever. All that to say this: If we could understand the Word in the context it was given, we would know that His will is being accomplished through us whether we ask for it or not. Each of us have been given a tremendous purpose in the Lord but that purpose isn't always visible through human understanding. Some saints may serve in a way that is more widely known and appears "bigger" than the single mom raising a son who will pastor a small flock faithfully, but even they can do nothing apart from the prayerful support of the Kahal...the community of faith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricH Posted October 30, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 366 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 10,933 Content Per Day: 1.57 Reputation: 212 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/21/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted October 30, 2009 The time of the 12 and 70 was a transitionary period in God's redemptive plan. As the new covenant came into force and new scriptures were being written, there were unique roles that needed to be fulfilled at this time in history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Franky67 Posted October 30, 2009 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 187 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/25/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/12/1925 Author Share Posted October 30, 2009 The time of the 12 and 70 was a transitionary period in God's redemptive plan. As the new covenant came into force and new scriptures were being written, there were unique roles that needed to be fulfilled at this time in history. But do you believe....... Were they gifted with powers and insight that no believer since then has been given? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLight Posted October 30, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.22 Reputation: 9,763 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted October 30, 2009 As stated earlier, I believe that the Holy Spirit is working to day as He was 2000 years ago, but, He gives according to His will, meaning that all the gifts are not given to everyone, as told in 1 Cor 12. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricH Posted October 30, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 366 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 10,933 Content Per Day: 1.57 Reputation: 212 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/21/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted October 30, 2009 The time of the 12 and 70 was a transitionary period in God's redemptive plan. As the new covenant came into force and new scriptures were being written, there were unique roles that needed to be fulfilled at this time in history. But do you believe....... Were they gifted with powers and insight that no believer since then has been given? I believe they had the authority to write inerrant scripture. Something no believer today has. It is probably more a question of roles than specific gifts or insight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massorite Posted October 30, 2009 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 38 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,973 Content Per Day: 0.32 Reputation: 36 Days Won: 2 Joined: 04/26/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/13/1953 Share Posted October 30, 2009 I don't think they were unique from believers today. Jesus taught that the miracles will continue as long as believers are still on the earth. (John 14:12 [KJV]) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. (Acts 2:39 [KJV]) For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, [even] as many as the Lord our God shall call. The only legitimate question is: why aren't we seeing a whole lot more miracles today. I agree KC02. The seventy were given an example of what was to come. Simply put they were slightly ahead of our time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Franky67 Posted October 30, 2009 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 187 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/25/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/12/1925 Author Share Posted October 30, 2009 The time of the 12 and 70 was a transitionary period in God's redemptive plan. As the new covenant came into force and new scriptures were being written, there were unique roles that needed to be fulfilled at this time in history. But do you believe....... Were they gifted with powers and insight that no believer since then has been given? I believe they had the authority to write inerrant scripture. Something no believer today has. It is probably more a question of roles than specific gifts or insight. Point that I am trying to make is that we, today are inheritors of everything that they were, and IF God sees fit to anoint any one of us , He has given us the wherewithall to accomplish His will. What I don't like about believing that the 12 or 70 had special powers, and, or gifts, is that it tends to destroy faith. One today, might say, "How can we lay hands on the sick, and see them recover, that was only for the apostles." And that mindset HAS destroyed faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLight Posted October 31, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.22 Reputation: 9,763 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted October 31, 2009 I agree Franky. I don't believe they had "special" gifts, as you say, but all the gifts at once, at least the Apostles. Today, He still gives out gifts, but individual gifts to individual people. That is why one is a hand, another a foot, another an ear and do forth as we read below: 1 Corinthians 12:12-31 Unity and Diversity in One Body For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ. For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KC02 Posted October 31, 2009 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 447 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 14 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/25/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/26/1971 Share Posted October 31, 2009 Point that I am trying to make is that we, today are inheritors of everything that they were, and IF God sees fit to anoint any one of us , He has given us the wherewithall to accomplish His will. What I don't like about believing that the 12 or 70 had special powers, and, or gifts, is that it tends to destroy faith. One today, might say, "How can we lay hands on the sick, and see them recover, that was only for the apostles." And that mindset HAS destroyed faith. I agree. A central teaching of Christ was to "have faith in God" because all things are possible. How many times did Jesus give this exhortation? What I am reading here is, "Don't believe in miracles since the apostles are no longer with us." It's not that such a teaching only destroys faith, but it tosses out the central teaching of the New Covenant. It also makes God as impotent as Buddha, Mohammad, Zeus and Peter Pan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLight Posted October 31, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.22 Reputation: 9,763 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted October 31, 2009 Point that I am trying to make is that we, today are inheritors of everything that they were, and IF God sees fit to anoint any one of us , He has given us the wherewithall to accomplish His will. What I don't like about believing that the 12 or 70 had special powers, and, or gifts, is that it tends to destroy faith. One today, might say, "How can we lay hands on the sick, and see them recover, that was only for the apostles." And that mindset HAS destroyed faith. I agree. A central teaching of Christ was to "have faith in God" because all things are possible. How many times did Jesus give this exhortation? What I am reading here is, "Don't believe in miracles since the apostles are no longer with us." It's not that such a teaching only destroys faith, but it tosses out the central teaching of the New Covenant. It also makes God as impotent as Buddha, Mohammad, Zeus and Peter Pan. I don't see this at all. What I see is a discussion if the saints today have the same authority as the apostles or the seventy sent by Christ. As quoted more then once, the gifts of the Holy Spirit can and are still given today, but not all gifts are given to every believer as seen in 1 Corinthians 12. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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