"Going to heaven"...a misnomer of sorts

[Openly Curious]

Most Believers say "I want to go to heaven" or 'I'm going to heaven when I die." Is that really true? Yes and no.

Heaven is the abode of God, angels and spirits. The Third Heaven belongs to God. The angels and righteous spirits awaiting the resurrection go to heaven, but our ultimate destination is the New Earth, NOT heaven. Man was never made to dwell in heaven, but on the earth in an Edenic state. God created Earth just for us and on the Last Day the earth will be made new (renewed if you will) and the Church (the Bride, the Holy City) will down out of heaven having met Christ in the air, and we will reoccupy the earth.

I'm not sure where the idea of eternity in heaven comes from, but the Scripture doesn't indicate that to be the ul;timate case. Will you go to heaven as a Believer? In spirit to await the resurrection, absolutely. After the resurrection, no. That is not to say that we will be 'earthbound' so to speak, only that our ultimate home will be the New Earth.

(Before anyone asks, no, I am NOT a Jehovah's Witness. I don't buy a bit of their heresies. That said, a stopped clock is right twice a day.)

'Bold Believer' can you possibly give scripture that follows your train of thought in your OP? It appears that your saying, one thing then it seems to me that you are stating another view than at the beginning.

The Word of God tells us that we will rule and reign with Christ. According to you our final destination "will be" in the "new earth" "alone" and if I am understanding you correctly "we will not inhabit" the "new heaven" which is spoken by you as the third heaven and that is only the abode of God alone and if I am correct here then in a spirit of peace I disagree with you.

OC

[Openly Curious]

Heaven is where Jesus is. Hell is where He is not.

Simple really.

King David said, that if he made his bed in hell that God would be there (Psalms 139:8--If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: "if I make my bed in hell, behold,thou art there.")

For the Spirit of God is every where as the Lord is Omni-Present for he is everywhere at once every nook and craney above, beneath and under the earth he is there. (Hebrews 2:8 & Colossians 1:16 & >>>Philippians 2:10-11<<<)

Ephesians 4:10--He that "descended" is the same also that "ascended," up far "above" all "heavens" that he might fill all things.

JESUS is in our hearts, and has shed his love abroad with in our hearts. Jesus living within our hearts is "heaven"

OC

[Botz]

Well Im going to heaven where the streets are paved with gold and the river of life is lined with 12 fruit trees and I get to travel the universe.

This earth is not going to be renewed but rolled up like a scroll and discarded as trash, God is making a new earth, but I doubt it will be so that we inhabit it in any fashion like here.

We will have glorified bodies that do not need food and can be transported accross the universe at will.

Seriously you think we are coming back here after being raptured? God is going to erase all the sorry and sad memories of such a sorry and sad place.IMO

The streets paved with gold are in the Celestial City (John Bunyan) and the Heavenly Jersualem comes down and G-d dwells among men in the New heavens and the New Earth...the impression I get is that He literally causes His dwelling place to be transferred from Heaven to Earth, and choses to dwell amongst men.

I love reading any articles about space I can find, and looking at pictures of planets, galaxies, nebulas, etc. etc. It scares me a little sometimes what I can understand of its vastness. God is powerful indeed to create all this , in fact I've wondered if the universe with so many gad-zillions of galaxies, etc. is really God's trashcan , ha ha. Did we really need all that stuff for the world to rotate? It so interesting / fascinating to learn about. Having said that, I have to wonder, why would God choose to live on this little planet after he re-creates the earth? After, all he has all that room and that's just what we see. Does this sound crazy? I don't want to live on a new earth without God with me and I believe he will be. I believe in heaven, I wonder if God will move his heavenly realm to earth????

Wonder no longer:- Revelation 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea. 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying,

[Openly Curious]

Well Im going to heaven where the streets are paved with gold and the river of life is lined with 12 fruit trees and I get to travel the universe.

This earth is not going to be renewed but rolled up like a scroll and discarded as trash, God is making a new earth, but I doubt it will be so that we inhabit it in any fashion like here.

We will have glorified bodies that do not need food and can be transported accross the universe at will.

Seriously you think we are coming back here after being raptured? God is going to erase all the sorry and sad memories of such a sorry and sad place.IMO

The streets paved with gold are in the Celestial City (John Bunyan) and the Heavenly Jersualem comes down and G-d dwells among men in the New heavens and the New Earth...the impression I get is that He literally causes His dwelling place to be transferred from Heaven to Earth, and choses to dwell amongst men.

I love reading any articles about space I can find, and looking at pictures of planets, galaxies, nebulas, etc. etc. It scares me a little sometimes what I can understand of its vastness. God is powerful indeed to create all this , in fact I've wondered if the universe with so many gad-zillions of galaxies, etc. is really God's trashcan , ha ha. Did we really need all that stuff for the world to rotate? It so interesting / fascinating to learn about. Having said that, I have to wonder, why would God choose to live on this little planet after he re-creates the earth? After, all he has all that room and that's just what we see. Does this sound crazy? I don't want to live on a new earth without God with me and I believe he will be. I believe in heaven, I wonder if God will move his heavenly realm to earth????

Wonder no longer:- Revelation 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea. 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them, 4 and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.

[kitty1]

Matthew 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

Matthew 7:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Why is it that no one is focused on Jesus setting up government here.

No one is thinking how they can contribute or what position or duties they will have when his kingdom (government) is here.

[Bold Believer]

Kitty...Christ's government has BEEN here since he left. What do you think He meant, when He said "all authority in heaven and earth is given unto me"? The whole idea of a literal earthly kingdom was denounced nearly as soon as Cerinthus the heresiarch spewed it out. Yes. the early church considered the idea of a literal millennium HERESY. (This is a recent find for me, BTW folks, which is why I never mentioned it before. Those who believe in a literal millennium have fallen into a heresy. Since the Church never teaches much about what was ever considered heresy, I am not surprised that I missed it.)

The early Church believed that the millennium was (as I do) not literal and that it was embodied in his people spreading the Gospel and becoming pre-dominant over all the earth, making disciples of all the nations. Why do you think the Devil was bound in the FIRST PLACE? To allow the Church to go out and fulfill the command of Christ without interference. WE REIGN NOW...or that is we DID. The little season is come and Satan is loose. BUT NOT FOR LONG

[Guest shiloh357]

Kitty...Christ's government has BEEN here since he left. What do you think He meant, when He said "all authority in heaven and earth is given unto me"? The whole idea of a literal earthly kingdom was denounced nearly as soon as Cerinthus the heresiarch spewed it out. Yes. the early church considered the idea of a literal millennium HERESY. (This is a recent find for me, BTW folks, which is why I never mentioned it before. Those who believe in a literal millennium have fallen into a heresy. Since the Church never teaches much about what was ever considered heresy, I am not surprised that I missed it.)

The early Church believed that the millennium was (as I do) not literal and that it was embodied in his people spreading the Gospel and becoming pre-dominant over all the earth, making disciples of all the nations. Why do you think the Devil was bound in the FIRST PLACE? To allow the Church to go out and fulfill the command of Christ without interference. WE REIGN NOW...or that is we DID. The little season is come and Satan is loose. BUT NOT FOR LONG

Yeah, if this is the Millennial reign of Christ it is the biggest failure in human history. I can read about the Millennium in Scripture and given how it is described, if the church age is the millennial reign of Christ, the world should be getting better, but ever since 33 AD., the world has been steadily getting worse and worse. The devil has NEVER been bound. Persecution of Christians has been around for nearly 2,000 years and more people died in the wars of the 20th century than in all previous centuries combined.

Furthermore, you are operating from the logical fallacy that "earlier" means more correct. The early church also believed that the Jews are hated of God and reguarly engaged in pogroms and various other persecution of Jews as well. Just because the early Church taught it, doesn't make it right.

And finally, you need to learn something about the word "heresy." Heresies pertain to teachings that contradicts fundamental, established doctrine. The Millennium does not fall under that category. Heresy does not apply to debatable issues like the Millennium, the rapture, speaking in tongues, etc. You need to learn about that word before throwing it around.

[Bold Believer]

Kitty...Christ's government has BEEN here since he left. What do you think He meant, when He said "all authority in heaven and earth is given unto me"? The whole idea of a literal earthly kingdom was denounced nearly as soon as Cerinthus the heresiarch spewed it out. Yes. the early church considered the idea of a literal millennium HERESY. (This is a recent find for me, BTW folks, which is why I never mentioned it before. Those who believe in a literal millennium have fallen into a heresy. Since the Church never teaches much about what was ever considered heresy, I am not surprised that I missed it.)

The early Church believed that the millennium was (as I do) not literal and that it was embodied in his people spreading the Gospel and becoming pre-dominant over all the earth, making disciples of all the nations. Why do you think the Devil was bound in the FIRST PLACE? To allow the Church to go out and fulfill the command of Christ without interference. WE REIGN NOW...or that is we DID. The little season is come and Satan is loose. BUT NOT FOR LONG

Yeah, if this is the Millennial reign of Christ it is the biggest failure in human history. I can read about the Millennium in Scripture and given how it is described, if the church age is the millennial reign of Christ, the world should be getting better, but ever since 33 AD., the world has been steadily getting worse and worse. The devil has NEVER been bound. Persecution of Christians has been around for nearly 2,000 years and more people died in the wars of the 20th century than in all previous centuries combined.

Furthermore, you are operating from the logical fallacy that "earlier" means more correct. The early church also believed that the Jews are hated of God and reguarly engaged in pogroms and various other persecution of Jews as well. Just because the early Church taught it, doesn't make it right.

And finally, you need to learn something about the word "heresy." Heresies pertain to teachings that contradicts fundamental, established doctrine. The Millennium does not fall under that category. Heresy does apply to debatable issues like the Millennium, the rapture, speaking in tongues, etc. You need to learn about that word before throwing it around.

The word heresy means factiious. The concept of a LITERAL EARTHLY millennium with Christ LITERALLY on earth was never in any of the early church creeds. The early church regarded the teachings of Cerinthus as heresy. One of Cerinthus' teachings was a literal millennium. Christ reigns over the earth FROM THE HEAVENS as we write friend. He is STILL in charge, despite the fact that we are in war with Gog and magog. Christ has never abdicated His throne, nor can He be deposed from it, by men OR Satan.

Satan WAS bound in a specific manner: To prevent his deceiving the nations. The 'Church Age' (a convenient term used to get around the fact that the millennium is not literally 1000 years) and the millennium are the SAME THING. The outpouring of the Gospel to the world. The binding of Satan doesn't mean either the absence of evil or the lack of persecution of Believers.

Notice the construction of the sentence even in English in Revelation: ...a thousand years. Not one thousand years. It's a idiomic expression meaning a long period of time. Have you ever told a child or perhaps your pet "I've told you a thousand times not to do that"? Same difference.

Finally: It is Christianity that is largely responsible for many of the great things which we have today. Things have gotten better, thanks to the Christian nations. We ride in cars and fly in planes, not on horses and in wagons. We have electricity and running water. We have medicine and higher education. Freedom and little slavery, except in the backwaters. Everywhere Christianity is taken, THINGS IMPROVE. Getting worse? Except for the fact that recently, Christians are giving ground to magog and being surrounded by godlessness, as the prophecy says would happen, the earth has benefited from Christianity, not gotten worse.

[Guest shiloh357]

The word heresy means factiious.

That is the lexical definition of the word. I am speaking of the use of the word as it applies to doctrinal teaching.

The concept of a LITERAL EARTHLY millennium with Christ LITERALLY on earth was never in any of the early church creeds.

Irrelevant.

Christ reigns over the earth FROM THE HEAVENS as we write friend. He is STILL in charge, despite the fact that we are in war with Gog and magog. Christ has never abdicated His throne, nor can He be deposed from it, by men OR Satan.

Jesus' throne is the throne of David and that is always, without exception, an earthly throne. Jesus is not His throne. Jesus is currently our High Priest. The notion that Jesus is on a throne in heaven at the right hand of the Father is an anthropromorphism, as the Father does not have a right hand seeing that He is a spirit is not corpreal. Jesus will be on His throne until He returns to earth and establishes His Kingdom here and sits on David's throne.

Satan WAS bound in a specific manner: To prevent his deceiving the nations.

Satan has NEVER been bound. That is pure myth. The nations have been being caught in his lies and deception for two thousand years. There is never a time where the gospel went forth that it was not met with contempt and persecution. Wars have never ceased in two thousand years. To claim that Satan has ever been bound is patently absurd.

The 'Church Age' (a convenient term used to get around the fact that the millennium is not literally 1000 years) and the millennium are the SAME THING.

No, they are not the same thing. Given the Bible's description of the millennium, you have to do some pretty fancy theological gymnastics to make the last two thousand years look like the reign of Jesus. Might as well try to make a pig look like Miss America.

The binding of Satan doesn't mean either the absence of evil or the lack of persecution of Believers.

Actually that is precisely what it means. What would be the point of binding Satan if Satan is free to continue persecuting, if wars, poverty and oppression are still free to continue??? Satan's work continues unabated for two thousand years. The nations have continued being deceived and rejecting the gospel for two thousand years.

Notice the construction of the sentence even in English in Revelation: ...a thousand years. Not one thousand years.

That is like saying cutting down a tree and chopping down a tree don't mean the same thing.

That is a futile parsing over words. A thousand years and "one thousand years" bear NO fundamental difference. You are trying to create a problem where none exists.

It's a idiomic expression meaning a long period of time. Have you ever told a child or perhaps your pet "I've told you a thousand times not to do that"? Same difference.

No, it is not idiomatic. The text does NOT indicate any kind of idiomatic usage. Your example does not fit the same type of usage as exists in Rev. 20:4. If it were idomatic, there would be textual indicators. The text of Scripture is completely unambiguous. If you claim it to be idiomatic, the onus is on YOU to provide the textual indicators that demand it be read in that fashion.

Finally: It is Christianity that is largely responsible for many of the great things which we have today. Things have gotten better, thanks to the Christian nations. We ride in cars and fly in planes, not on horses and in wagons. We have electricity and running water. We have medicine and higher education. Freedom and little slavery, except in the backwaters. Everywhere Christianity is taken, THINGS IMPROVE. Getting worse? Except for the fact that recently, Christians are giving ground to magog and being surrounded by godlessness, as the prophecy says would happen, the earth has benefited from Christianity, not gotten worse.

While technology has provided some benefits, you cannot realistically claim the the world is getting better. We can kill more people in a single shot, and with less remorse. Society has become more racist, more bloodthirsty over the last two thousand years. We legalize murder and decide who lives and who dies based on what is convenient for the living. Our advancements have only fueled human pride and created less dependence on God. It has not made us more civilized; it has made us more sophisticated in our brutality. Wars are more rampant than ever before, and more people are dying and going to hell now than at any other time in history. We are far, far worse off now than at any time in history.

[Bold Believer]

After looking at the Scriptures referring to the veil being torn away between the Holy of Holies and the Holy Place, I must say I made a mistake. The veil's tearing away allows us access where there was none before. Apparently, we will be able to go back and forth between the New Heaven and New Earth. I do still contend though that our primary dwellingplace will be the New Earth, because we'll have bodies, not JUST disembodied spirits (which appears to be our intermediate state before the resurrection.