Reconciling election to 'all'

[Bold Believer]

It's a tenet of Calvinism that Christ died ONLY for the elect. While I'm Calvinistic, I'm hardly traditional. I believe that any theological construct must be weighed against the Scripture and where Scripture disagrees with the theological construct, that portion of the construct must be set aside.

The Scripture clearly tells us that the blood of Christ is the propitiation for the sins of the WHOLE world.

1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world.

Kosmos can mean all of the created order, or simply the portion of the world in opposition to Christ and His order. In this case, I can't see it referring to creation in general, therefore I must conclude that it means everyone. Now before my Calvinist brothers have me shot, let me say that this in no way goes against Calvin's understanding that only the elect are saved. Those who respond to the call of God to believe AND REMAIN FAITHFUL TO IT (the 'P' in TULIP) are the elect.

Well then Bold, are you saying that some lose their salvation? Absolutely. WHAT! STONE HIM! HERETIC!

Jhn 3:15-21 "...so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."

All Calvinists will agree that the 'whoever will' is the elect. Likewise, the Calvinist will agree that those who do NOT believe are the vessels of wrath. John agrees also when He says that those who do not believe are condemned ALREADY and that God's judgment on them is that they loved darkness rather than Light...AND HATE THE LIGHT and DO NOT FOLLOW THE LIGHT because they fear their deeds will be exposed (made manifest by the Light for what they are).

But the Gift is for all. MANY are called, FEW are chosen. God says "Come." The elect say eventually: "Here am I." The vessels of wrath say: "Forget you," proving by their continual rejection that they are vessels of wrath.

The Gift is the Blood of Christ shed for sins. IF BELIEVED UPON, IT WILL TAKE AWAY YOUR SINS. Think of the gift like a million dollar check. If you never CASH THE CHECK, IF YOU CONSIDER THE CHECK WORTHLESS, IT IS OF NO VALUE TO YOU. The Gift is only good to the elect. The wicked are guilty of the most heinous sin of them all: REJECTING THE HOLY SPIRIT AND BLASPHEMING HIM.

Hbr 10:26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

The wicked have had the opportunity to receive the one thing which would take away their sins. THE BLOOD HAS BEEN APPLIED TO THE MERCY SEAT ON THEIR BEHALF AND THEY DEEM IT UNHOLY! In this sense, they have lost their salvation by failing to receive it. SO, the elect do not lose their salvation, the wicked lose theirs by rejecting the sacrifice.

Hbr 10:28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on {the testimony of} two or three witnesses.

This is a very important phrase, this 'set aside'. It's the word atheteō, meaning:

1) to do away with, to set aside, disregard

2) to thwart the efficacy of anything, nullify, make void, frustrate

3) to reject, to refuse, to slight

The vessel of wrath DISREGARDS the very thing capable of saving him. Like a drowning man shoving away a life preserver, the vessel of wrath casts away the provision of the Blood.

Hbr 10:29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?

The vessel of wrath regards the blood of the covenant as unclean or common. It sanctified him UP UNTIL THE POINT OF TOTAL REJECTION. Christ died for all, but when called upon to believe in the provision of the covenant, the vessel of wrath proves what he/she is by in effect saying: "Holy Spirit you are a liar. The blood of Christ is just plain old blood, it does nothing to save me. Until called, all men are under common grace. This doesn't mean that if someone who is evil dies before they can hear the Gospel that they are saved. Common grace keeps God from killing them. You're unclean but God is extending you grace. As Romans 9 says:

Rom 9:22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?

Common grace is God putting up with Christ-rejectors until such time as it pleases Him to judge them. He endures them with much patience. His holiness demands their death, His grace gives them a break. Once they reject the Blood of the Covenant, they are living on borrowed time.

All have a sacrifice applicable, not all will accept the sacrifice, only the elect.

[Sir Gareth]

First off let me say i am neither a calvanist nor an aremenist, i am a christian.

I was once very much against the idea of predestination.

I have found something very interesting in scripture though.

Yes salvation is offered to all, but given to the the elect.

Now how exactly does God elect people? He's very just and does not play favorites so how can his righteousness be reconciled to chosing some and rejecting others?

Simply this God knows everything before it happens, these simple verses helped me understand how God elects someone.

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Those he knew would accept him he predestined, not that he chose them but he knew they would choose him.

1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Again election is according to his foreknowlege. therefore we can easily reconcile the doctrine of election with the doctrine of free will.

[Guest shiloh357]

I would disagree with the notion that "whoever will" is a limiting parameter.

But the Gift is for all. MANY are called, FEW are chosen.

You are citing a verse from the teachings of Jesus. When Jesus said "many are called, but few are chosen" He was referencing service, not salvation. You are taking His words out of context and misapplying them.

Likewise, the Calvinist will agree that those who do NOT believe are the vessels of wrath.

There is no such thing as a "vessel of wrath." There are vessels fitted for destruction, vessels of mercy, vessels of honor or dishonor, but there are no vessels of wrath. God never refers to anyone as a vessel of wrath.

Common grace keeps God from killing them.

The Bible never references anything called "common grace."

Common grace is God putting up with Christ-rejectors until such time as it pleases Him to judge them.

Biblicly speaking, that is called "mercy." God extends mercy to unbelievers until judgment.

[Rick-Parker]

First off let me say i am neither a calvanist nor an aremenist, i am a christian.

I was once very much against the idea of predestination.

I have found something very interesting in scripture though.

Yes salvation is offered to all, but given to the the elect.

Now how exactly does God elect people? He's very just and does not play favorites so how can his righteousness be reconciled to chosing some and rejecting others?

Simply this God knows everything before it happens, these simple verses helped me understand how God elects someone.

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Those he knew would accept him he predestined, not that he chose them but he knew they would choose him.

1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Again election is according to his foreknowlege. therefore we can easily reconcile the doctrine of election with the doctrine of free will.

You have it right.

You too, shiloh357.

Edited December 24, 2009 by Parker1