Who are they?

[~candice~]

I was reading this (again) and I realised that I don't properly understand who "they" are. Who are the people being talked about in Ro 1:18-32? I think it is the unrighteous man, in v18, but some parts of the chapter are a bit odd to me...

Rom 1:18-32 MKJV

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from Heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,

19 because

the thing which may be known of God is clearly revealed within them, for God revealed it to them.

20 For the unseen things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being realized by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, for them to be without excuse.

21 Because,

knowing God,

they did not glorify Him as God, neither were thankful. But they became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22 Professing to be wise, they became fools

23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man, and birds, and four-footed animals, and creeping things.

24

Therefore

God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves.

25 For they changed the truth of God into a lie, and they worshiped and served the created thing more than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

26

For this cause, God gave them

up to dishonorable affections. For even their women changed the natural use into that which is against nature.

27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust toward one another; males with males working out shamefulness, and receiving in themselves the recompense which was fitting for their error.

28 And even as they did not think fit to have God in their knowledge,

God gave them over

to a reprobate mind, to do the things not right,

29 being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; being full of envy, murder, quarrels, deceit, evil habits, becoming whisperers,

30 backbiters, haters of God, insolent, proud, braggarts, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

31 undiscerning, perfidious, without natural affection, unforgiving, unmerciful;

32 who,

knowing the righteous order of God,

that those practicing such things are worthy of death, not only do them, but have pleasure in those practicing them.

It appears that these people, in some sense, knew God. The things of God are revealed to them (18), they knew God (21) and knew the righteous order of God (32).

Then, they then appear to be involved (intentionally, purposefully) in idolatry (23, 25).

As a reaction to this, God gave them up (24,26) or gave them over (28).

This doesn't appear to me (at least from my current understanding) to be normal non regenerated people. These people had knowledge that the usual unbeliever doesn't have, they committed purposeful idolatry, and God turned them over as a response to their sins.

We sin, and have a sin nature that we are born with. I am just at a loss to tie this in with my own life pre-salvation. If this passage applies to me pre-salvation, when did God give me over? If this passage doesn't apply to me, who is it about?

These people that the verses refer to, do you think they were aware of the consequences of their idolatry before they committed idolatry?

It was suggested to me by someone else that these people are similar to those who were "seed sown in rocky ground" in the parable of the sower in Matt 13. Any responses to this?

Blessings,

Andy

[~candice~]

I just wanted to add a random thought before it escaped my mind...

Romans 1 is often used as a proof text that the nonbelievers have no excuse... even if they haven't directly heard the gospel, they should see and know things about God because of the creation that they are placed in. Now, reading again, it appears as though these passages were actually about believers who then went on to reject the message. Is that right?

[Guest shiloh357]

I just wanted to add a random thought before it escaped my mind...

Romans 1 is often used as a proof text that the nonbelievers have no excuse... even if they haven't directly heard the gospel, they should see and know things about God because of the creation that they are placed in. Now, reading again, it appears as though these passages were actually about believers who then went on to reject the message. Is that right?

No.

It is referring to unbelievers. Paul's point is that these unbelievers are without excuse because there is enough testimony of God's existence in nature.

[Guest yod]

The greek culture was (and still is) based on humanist philosophy. It was a thought-based culture where reason and intellect were prime. Homosexuality was also normal in greek morality and whenever the Lord spoke about "the world", He was almost always referring to greek culture...which is what we call "civilization" today. He refered to all gentiles who were steeped in the greek ways of Alexander the Great as "greek" (Romans 1:16) even when speaking about Romans or what we would call Turkey today.

I believe this culture is what Paul is speaking to. If they were truly being intellectually logical, then they would be able to see that there is a Creator behind the creation and worship Him. They would see that there is a natural use for the body of each gender without distorting that image.

The greek could logically discern the existence of god and this is evident by how many gods they had in their inventory. Paul's calling was to these gentiles since he had grown up in greek culture being a Roman citizen from Tarsus. He reasoned with the greek often by using the philosophical method to introduce them to God but His ways require a different mindset, a renewed mind, to fully understand.

Just an aside to your question: I believe this humanist greek philosophy infected "the church" by the second century and christian are taught in the greek ways more than in the Lord's ways which were ingrained into hebrew culture since Abraham...maybe going all the way back to Noah or Shem.

[~candice~]

Yod, thanks for your response .

Would it be fair to say that false reason was their god?

[Guest yod]

Yod, thanks for your response .

Would it be fair to say that false reason was their god?

I don't know if I'd say that?

They were setting themselves up as the center of the universe through intellectual knowledge.

So, in a way, they were making themselves to be god.

[~candice~]

Yod, thanks for your response .

Would it be fair to say that false reason was their god?

I don't know if I'd say that?

They were setting themselves up as the center of the universe through intellectual knowledge.

So, in a way, they were making themselves to be god.

Are normal nonbelievers today, the people spoken of in Romans 1?

I know people who are atheists with an agenda, they worship their philosophy and intellect. To me, it is these people that the chapters is speaking of, not the person who has no belief but doesn't really make that the center of their life / thoughts?

[Guest yod]

Are normal nonbelievers today, the people spoken of in Romans 1?

I know people who are atheists with an agenda, they worship their philosophy and intellect. To me, it is these people that the chapters is speaking of,

that is the greek spirit. It never left...

[Guest]

.... Just an aside to your question: I believe this humanist greek philosophy infected "the church" by the second century and christian are taught in the greek ways more than in the Lord's ways which were ingrained into hebrew culture since Abraham...maybe going all the way back to Noah or Shem ....

.... And what do you offer to support your peculiar notions or do you just make it all up on the fly? Maybe you can actually define your term