Botz Posted March 6, 2010 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 76 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,492 Content Per Day: 0.61 Reputation: 191 Days Won: 18 Joined: 03/29/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted March 6, 2010 I wonder who baptised the twelve disciples? (Old Covenant/New Covenant?) The fact is that we are saved through our repentance and faith in Jesus the Messiah. We therefore become disciples. A disciple wants to emulate his Teacher/Master, and do what he is told/commanded. As disciples we are told to be baptised. Every disciple should have no problem with being obedient to this command. Did Jesus need to be baptised? No...but He submitted Himself, and gave us an example. Sometimes people cannot be baptised ...G-d knows their hearts...but if they could they would. The hypothetical people who refuse to be baptised and choose to disdain a clear biblical directive I have never met...not even on these boards...only people who have genuine questions about baptism, and want to do things properly and with understanding that it is an outward expression of an inward change wrought by G-d in their lives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evetsegap Posted March 6, 2010 Group: Members Followers: 1 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 49 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/26/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/29/1956 Share Posted March 6, 2010 (edited) you will understand that yes we have to be baptized, if humanly possible, or we will not be saved. here is what makes your position untenable, the whole "if humanly possible" side of it. This causes two problems for you position. First, it makes your self-contradictory. If something is necessary for salvation, it is necessary for salvation 100% of the time. not just when "possible". So, either baptism is necessary or it is not. It is disingenuous to add qualifiers after the fact. Second, nothing about salvation is "humanly possible", salvation is all about God, not about us. You know, that whole "lest anyone should boast" thing that Paul talked about. Salvation is a gift of God, and if we must perform an action to receive that gift, it is no longer a gift, it is a wage. I was was referring to death bed salvation or as one writer wrote "a soldier getting saved in a foxhole." in those cases converts cannot be baptized, it is not humanly possible. In those types of instances God's mercy and justice will prevail. "if we must perform an action to receive that gift, it is no longer a gift", to get salvation we must repent, make confession, believe, be baptized and endure till the end. Not one of of those things are "works", yet scripture is clear we must do them all. When Paul wrote ""lest anyone should boast" he was writing about circumcision and the Law of Moses. When Paul wrote about the "Law" and "works" he was not writing about things like Baptism or Communion, most often he was referring specifically to Torah or the Talmud. He certainly was not referring to Christians living lives in obedience to the command of Chris that are as pure and holy as possible and as charitable as possible, the believer is expected to strive for those things as hard as possible. (If they fail they are forgiven) Striving for those things is not "works", it's just part of being a Christ follower.(1 Peter 1:15-16, 1 John 3:3) Read the entire thread, this has all been covered. Much the the apathy in the Body of Christ is caused because Christians do not bother to (or want to) distinguish between "works of faith" and "works of the flesh." "Works of faith" are a testimony to our love for Jesus. "Works of the flesh" are arrogance in action, attempts to earn grace and salvation, which only come through faith. True faith of Biblical proportions causes a man to act, and it causes him to run the race all out. (Hebrews 6:12, Hebrews 13:7, Hebrews 11) Edited March 6, 2010 by evetsegap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evetsegap Posted March 6, 2010 Group: Members Followers: 1 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 49 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/26/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/29/1956 Share Posted March 6, 2010 (edited) God is the same the covenant is not. The thief on the cross died under the old covenant, and it does not matter if it was only three days before the start of the old covenant. Peter introduced the new covenant with the words "God has raised this Jesus to life" and "repent and be baptized." Jesus said those who believe and are Baptized will be saved. Jesus told the Apostles to baptize and every convert in the NT was Baptized. So no matter what we want to theorize about a guy who died before the resurrection, Jesus told us to be Baptized as did the apostles who knew Him best. Baptism does not save us, faith does. But, not being Baptized is disobedience that shows we don't love Jesus and only those who love Jesus are saved. Are you calling Jesus a liar??? Luke 23:42-43 42Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom." 43 Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise." There is no room for different interpretations. Jesus said, He will be with HIM... why is this not clear to you? NO, I am not! As I (and many others) interpret the book of Hebrews, all of the old testament saints waited in Paradise for the death and resurrection of Jesus. Only His blood can justify and wash away sin. Hebrews 9:15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant. Hebrews 10:10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. Hebrews 11:39 "These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. 40 God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect." Edited March 6, 2010 by evetsegap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
humbleseeker Posted March 6, 2010 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 519 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 2 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/11/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/28/1980 Author Share Posted March 6, 2010 Well as far as I know baptism was going on well before Christ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evetsegap Posted March 6, 2010 Group: Members Followers: 1 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 49 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/26/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/29/1956 Share Posted March 6, 2010 Well as far as I know baptism was going on well before Christ.I agree. We know John the Baptist was doing it. None of the Jews seemed surprised by it or against it, so it might have been some form of ceremonial cleansing thing even before John. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evetsegap Posted March 6, 2010 Group: Members Followers: 1 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 49 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/26/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/29/1956 Share Posted March 6, 2010 To be honest you are nit picking and you clearly have not read Ephesians. I know what you were referring to, it does not change the fact that either something is required for salvation or it is not. You really can Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evetsegap Posted March 6, 2010 Group: Members Followers: 1 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 49 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/26/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/29/1956 Share Posted March 6, 2010 (edited) I agree with this statement from Nebula, but it does not say what you have been saying. There is no good reason not to be baptized, but that does not make it a requirement for salvation.That's exactly what I've been saying you are just to (whatever) to see. I am going to go there, because the unsaved get baptized all the time. I did it as a youth because everyone else was. So, now that I have gone there, lets break down this verse... Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned What this verse does not say, what Jesus did not say was but whoever does not get baptized will be condemned. You can pretend it does, but that does not make it true. So you got baptized and you did not believe in Jesus? I think not. It's just nonsense to think that somebody who does not believe in Jesus would be baptized in the name of Jesus. Besides that, the verse clearly says "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved", any person who understands English should be able to understand the implication Jesus made by that. If those who believe and are baptized are saved, then those who do not believe or who are not baptized are not saved. You lie and say I add to scripture, while you are taking away from scripture, so you can win an argument. Instead of just trying to win search for the truth in scripture. Jesus talked about guys like you. "The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For out of the overflow of his heart his mouth speaks." none of this makes baptism necessary for salvation, in fact it shows just the opposite Are you a Christian now? Because I see you saying being baptized (which is being obedient to the Lord) is not necessary. No Christian would ever say obedience to the Lord is not necessary for salvation, at least none that I have ever met. YOu sir, are adding to the Word of God, something we are not supposed to do. This is the second time you have made this same lie. First, you lied and said I added circumcision to Ephesians and then made up a far fetched story to cover your lack of knowledge about the entire book of Ephesians and Paul's ministry. And now you lie again, falsely accusing me of adding to the Word. You will be ignored from this post forward. Edited March 6, 2010 by evetsegap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evetsegap Posted March 6, 2010 Group: Members Followers: 1 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 49 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/26/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/29/1956 Share Posted March 6, 2010 (edited) Well I'll eat my words, I just have to. that is cool with me, almost all those coming here teaching false doctrines run away from me, as I wont let them get away with it. You may ignore me, but as long as you promote a false doctrine, I will not ignore you. People ignore you because you are rude, you are a false accuser of the brethren, you have no real understanding of scripture, you read your biases into what others write, you twist scripture to fit whatever fallacy you believe and you are unteachable. Peace in Christ. I don't know if you are a Christian or not but I pray Jesus will forgive you and I forgive you myself. I love you. Edited March 6, 2010 by evetsegap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Botz Posted March 6, 2010 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 76 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,492 Content Per Day: 0.61 Reputation: 191 Days Won: 18 Joined: 03/29/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted March 6, 2010 1Peter 3:8 To sum up, all of you be harmonious, sympathetic, brotherly, kindhearted, and humble in spirit; 9 not returning evil for evil or insult for insult, but giving a blessing instead; for you were called for the very purpose that you might inherit a blessing. 10 For, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick-Parker Posted March 6, 2010 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 200 Topics Per Day: 0.23 Content Count: 4,271 Content Per Day: 4.96 Reputation: 1,855 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/17/2021 Status: Offline Birthday: 06/03/1955 Share Posted March 6, 2010 Are we to believe that the person who accepts Christ as their personal savior but doesn't decide to get baptized until 2 months later is not saved? What if they were to die the day before they were to be baptized? Are they not saved? Or are they saved and baptism an act of obedience to a command of the Lord as an outward demonstration to the world that you are His. We all know that Jesus is just and righteous. If a person has no opportunity to be baptized then He knows their hearts, don't you think? But, you do bring up a good point, "person who accepts Christ as their personal savior but doesn't decide to get baptized until 2 months later is not saved." Only Jesus can know if that person was like the foolish virgins or not. (Matthew 25) I believe that they are saved, baptized or not. That's what I was trying to say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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