Evolution-A wolf in sheeps clothing

[MorningGlory]

Morninglory, I don't think Lurker said God was constrained by anything. You misread his words and jumped that conclusion.

Wrong again; of course he didn't say that God was constrained. That is MY conclusion based on his post. How do you know what he meant? When did you become his spokesman?

Theistic evolutionists take the view that God never intended that modern humans should interpret the Creation story as a literal event.

'Theistic evolutionist' is an oxymoron and they've NO idea what God intended; no more than any of the rest of us.

I once counted myself a Christian so I do get it. Your response, though, is not relevant to the matter at hand.

Just who are YOU to tell me my response is not relevant. It's relevant because I say it is. Marginalizing ME has been tried here before; without success, I might add. But, go ahead, give it your best shot.

God may very well be all those things and more, I am not arguing he isn't, what matters for the discussion is what people believe regarding Genesis. Lurker stated that the Genisis account, if interpreted as a scientific statement, contradicts views held in some of the major sciences. That is an accurate statement. Lurker never said anything about God being subject to or not "subject to the laws of physics, geology or astronomy." Those were your words and they were misconstrued.

I misconstrued my OWN words? Please, rethink that statement and see if it still makes sense.

What he said was Genesis contradicts many modern findings in science. His argument takes the view that setting Genesis up as a scientific explanation that supercedes the sciences was setting believers up for a crisis in faith. At least that is how I interpreted his words. I can also vouch for the accuracy of the claim as regards myself.

Yeah, I know how concerned you guys are about the faith of Christians.

Lurker is afraid that if you set Genesis up as literal statement of scientific belief then you seriously risk Christians opting out of a belief in God. That happened with me. Of course your view is that in the eyes of God there is little difference between the atheist and the Christian who accepts the New Testament but who rejects a literal interpretation of the Creation story -- both are going to Hell.

By George, I think you've got it.

[Rick-Parker]

I have concluded that the teaching of evolution is the biggest enemy of Christianity. Why? What else can be the reason for the increase of atheism?

E Lansing, this thread in particular is of interest to me. I think it highlights a common misperception among many Christians. Evolution didn't play any significant role in my loss of belief in God. Lurker's statement in post #5 of this thread hits the mark for me:

[Joshua-777]

Marsh i do not believe that you are as rock-ribb as Lurker, could be wrong, but i think there is still hope for you.

Lurker already says he believes in God, I don't; why would you say that?

Life is short and eternity is forever. Chose Jesus today!

Many Christians seem to think it is all of matter of deciding to believe. It is not like that. Imagine yourself deciding to believe in the Easter Bunny. You couldn't possibly, of course. There would first be all sorts of hurdles of incredulity you would have to get past. So it is with me. Hell is a big problem. I can't believe a God of Love would permit such a place to exist and I can't believe in the Creation account. It would mean rejecting everything in the sciences that, for me, make perfect sense, and I think that is what started me on this path in the first place. My belief was made contingent upon Genesis being true. It was the Word of God, and if I found fault with it then I had to reject everything else. That was the position I thought I was in and that is where Lurker warns the danger lies. What do you prefer, an America where most people believe in Christ, but not in the Creation story, or an America where most people don't believe in Christ at all?

Those may be the options eventually facing you if a literal interpretation of Genesis is insisted upon. The other option might be to shut down science education. It may seem theologically satisfying, but otherwise it would be a disaster. Biological evolution, after all, isn't the only science Genesis contradicts; it is only the most obvious one.

Marsh, by the sound of it you where raised with Christian beliefs but never had an active relationship with God, that comes when you submit yourself to God, and lay down your life to him/ I think that is a common misconception on unbelievers part. Being raised a Christian doesn't make you a Christian. That is why I believe you hear alot of I used to be a Christian. To come to Christ you don't just believe, it takes faith, and true faith is active upon. It takes rejecting this world, for Christ. This is something that it would be impossible for you to ever grasp on your own accord, I cannot explain to you what it's like to have a relationship with the creator of all things. That is something you would have to come to on your own. Our God is not of this world, so to find Him, look towards him, not the world.

[MorningGlory]

What do you prefer, an America where most people believe in Christ, but not in the Creation story, or an America where most people don't believe in Christ at all?

Get real. Christians don't think like you.

Those may be the options eventually facing you if a literal interpretation of Genesis is insisted upon.

Nice try; no cigar.

[MorningGlory]

You might counter my argument with the observation that many atheists do attack the belief in God. You interpret that as hatred for God. In fact that is not true. They are not attacking God per se, they don't believe God exists, they are simply attacking the belief.

Why?

[MorningGlory]

You might counter my argument with the observation that many atheists do attack the belief in God. You interpret that as hatred for God. In fact that is not true. They are not attacking God per se, they don't believe God exists, they are simply attacking the belief.

Why?

Why do they attack the belief in God? I am not sure what you are asking. Could be a bit more specific?

Why do atheists feel the need to attack others' beliefs in something they don't believe exists, held by people they consider to be delusional? Why bother? It's like your example of the Easter Bunny; if you DID know adults who believed in him would you be out there trying to convince them they're wrong? You said you wouldn't so why is Christianity such a concern to you? Or is it that you don't KNOW why you're driven to disprove God? Odd that y'all never come out and attempt to hammer on muslims though. Why is THAT?

Just as a side note, you've got your job cut out for you; ten million thermonuclear bombs couldn't separate a true believer from his God or change his beliefs. But maybe you'll be the one who succeeds.....you think?

[MorningGlory]

I will say again, many Christians accept evolution. Those Christians do think like me. I can't do anything about you only recognizing your own beliefs as Christian.

No true Christian accepts that man is an evolved being. That is a LIE. The 'Christians' who think like you are in your mind.

I have heard other Christians express the same same concern as Lurker. He is not alone in believing that a literal reading Genesis could lead to loss of belief altogether. I know from personal experience that the concern is real, but I don't think for a moment that everyone will become atheists, however, I do think that your stance on Genesis will cause more people to become atheists than otherwise would.

You can always pray for that....oh wait....no, you can't. Well, you can always hope for it. But....it's a crock, I know it, you know it and so does everyone reading this. Still no cigar, Marsh. Lurker is not concerned for the faith of Christians; he has another agenda. Everyone knows THAT too. How about you guys shuffling your game plan because this one isn't working.

And when are you going to answer my question? When did you become Lurker's spokesperson????

[e lansing]

I think you misunderstand, or misinterpret. I don't think atheists would say they hate God. That would be like saying they hate the Easter Bunny. Here is the connection: just because I don't believe in the existence of the Easter Bunny does not mean I hate the Easter Bunny.

Ok you claim not to hate God, but look at how atheist or evolutionist treat those who believe in God? They look at us like we believe in the easter bunny and treat us accordingly I guess discuss or ridiculous would be a better discription and we could never be taken serious. Why? The weeds of the Theory of evolution have already taken root.

You might counter my argument with the observation that many atheists do attack the belief in God. You interpret that as hatred for God. In fact that is not true. They are not attacking God per se, they don't believe God exists, they are simply attacking the belief. If adults believed in the existence of the Easter Bunny you would see atheists attacking that belief as well. They would not hate the Easter Bunny, but they would still attack the belief system because they see it as false.

If it so false why be so concern about the teaching of it in schools? The easter bunny is allowed in schools but not God or His word. For atheist or evolutionist to attack the belief of someone who believes in God is ridiculous if they are so sure that there is no God. Atheist just cannot deal with the notion that one day they will stand before a just God and give an account for the crimes they commited against God. So they reject even the idea of God so they can continue in there rebellion against God.

God for you is very real, so any attack on the belief system is interpreted as hatered of God, but that view is a misunderstanding of what atheists actually feel. Few, if any, atheists would ever say they hate God, of that I am sure.

They just show hate toward those people who do believe in God.

The juxtaposition of Genesis and contemporary science, in general, leads more people to disbelief than I suppose most other causes. Don't think that evolution is the main factor.

If evolution was not taught as fact what other choice would there be?

Many Christians have not rejected Christ at all, only the literal interpretation of Genesis. Of course you see that as being equivalent, I don't. We could argue this point till the cows come home and we will never agree.

If you take away the literal teaching of Genesis 1-3, you reject the existence of God and the need for Jesus. Then whats left? easter bunny.

When I use to work with the J-hi students at our church, there was more confusion about the truthfulness of scripture because of what they would learn at school. The greatest issue is that when it comes to science we are talking about truth, at lease thats what we expect. When we as Christians talk of scriptures, we think of it as truth. When these two conflict, confusion for the young mind.

I agree. Eliminate the need for them to interpret Genesis literally and you eliminate the confusion. People will then go on believing in God.

Without Genesis there is no God, no sin, and no need for Jesus. What left? easter bunny

[e lansing]

Lurker already says he believes in God, I don't; why would you say that?

Ibelieve that one who says that they do not believe in God are far closer to knowng the truth then one who says they do and deny Him and His Word. Like the Pharisees of Jesus days. They claim to know God and therefore where to be repersenitives of God and yet they killed God. The pharisees were a lot more blind to the truth then anyother because they claimed to know the truth and did not.

There would first be all sorts of hurdles of incredulity you would have to get past. So it is with me. Hell is a big problem. I can't believe a God of Love would permit such a place to exist and I can't believe in the Creation account.

If you had your home rob and a loved one killed at the same time and the criminal was caught and you both went to court and the violater went to the judge and pleaded his case by telling the judge that he quit doing wrong and infact had been doing a lot of volunteer work and asks the judge to forgive him his crime and the judge says OK I agree you may go home. What kind of judge would that be? How would you feel about that judge who did not even hear your side of the case? If you are honest with yourself you would want justice, you would want that judge to up hold the law because of the crimes that had been committed against you, Right? Would you agree that this judge was a bad judge? Because God is a good, loving, caring, supreme, awesome, just God, we can only expect Him to up hold his law on judgement day. Since no one can never be good enough to satisfy Gods requirements of being sinless/crimeless to get into heaven all are doomed to hell. However, God provided a pardon of crimes through Jesus. Since Jesus was sinless/crimeless, He was the perfect ransom for all who would put there faith in Him. Without being pardon through Gods ransom, hell is the price you will pay for your crimes against God. The choice is yours.

It would mean rejecting everything in the sciences that, for me, make perfect sense

if you are to be honest with yourself you know that there are a lot of major gaps in those theories you trust in. More importantly eternity is forever and you will never be able to blame anybody before God for rejecting His pardon.

What do you prefer, an America where most people believe in Christ, but not in the Creation story, or an America where most people don't believe in Christ at all?

Like i said, without Genesis there is no God, no sin, and no need for Jesus. without Jesus there is no Christianity.

e

[Joshua-777]

Josh, thanks for the genuine attempt to explain. People have said some of these things to me before, so I know they are coming from the heart. I attended Sunday school and church on a regular basis, so you are right, I was "raised with Christian beliefs...." My parents led more by example and though they believed in a literal interpretation of the Bible I wouldn't say my upbringing at home was particularly religious. You guessed right that I "never had an active relationship with God". I wasn't really much into prayer during most of my religious life and engaged in it only infrequently. During my late teens, when I realized my faith was slipping away I got scared and immersed myself in the Bible. I also began some very earnest praying, frequent praying, to recover my faith. It wasn't something I wanted to lose. People on forums who don't know me will sometimes say I decided not to believe anymore. It wasn't like that. I wanted to believe. I knew the phrase, 'Knock and the door will be opened.' Well I banged on that door for a good long time, but nothing happened. It stayed locked. In the end I think I just realized there must not be anything behind the door.

If someone else has had what they interpret is a personal relationship with God then they have good reason to believe. I never had that experience. I don't know why some of us have those experiences and some of us don't, but I want to convey that if someone wholly lacks that experience then there may be no way to internalize a personal sense of God. I don't know whether I am getting my meaning across.

I can relate. Growing up, I was raised with Christian beliefs, I believed in God but wasn't in a relationship with him. Well, My Mom was a genuine Christian, my step-dad just used the Christian appearance to hide how wicked he was, Under the family mask to the outside, he was abusive, and a child molester, not to me, but to my sister. I didn't know about it until I was around 14 years old. He would always use the bible as a twisting scripture to his advantage. Before I found that out I was losing my faith already, I had doubts comprehending a God who cares, then when I was 13 my friend from school killed himself, and it made me wonder "how could a loving God let this happen?" I headed into drugs early, and a friend introduced me to Wicca, then when I found out about what my step dad did, I went off the deep end, I ran away and was homeless by choice. I didn't just not believe in God, I lived my life purposely contrary, and I would find Christians to try to sway them from their belief, I hated anything to do with God. I got deep into drugs and the occult. I found a demonic mess that I was constantly feeding. To make a long story short, events caused me to move to WV from CA, in with my Sister. I was coming off crystal meth, so I was an emotional wreck, spiritually numb, and mood swings every 5 min. one night I was alone and I got in a fight with God, yelling question after question, about my life, and expected a reply, oddly I believed he would reply. I have prayed before wanting him to prove himself, but this was different. Even though I was mad, and demanded answers, I had faith he would answer. I went to church the next day cause my sister made me go, and during worship I felt a peaceful presence surround me. I was fighting it with all I had, then after worship, the Lady on the worship team spoke in tongues, It pierced me, like a sword through my heart, My body was trembling, and all my walls where thrown down in my heart. When it was interpreted, The preacher changed his sermon, and he answered every question I had asked God in private. I gave my life to the Lord that night. After I gave my life to the Lord, The Lord started working in my life, Through me, and others around me, I have seen miracles, I have seen God active in my life. And though I slipped time to time from then, he always brings me back. It's true unconditional love.

I would never have called myself a Born Again Christian, I didn't know what that was, but I certainly considered myself Christian. Honestly, I really don't accept the claims of others that I was not really Christian. If you tell me I wasn't Evangelical, I can look at the definition, and if I never fit that form of Christian belief, then I can agree with you. I know we will never agree on this, but I think there are many different forms of belief that all fit under the umbrella of Christianity. As I told a friend recently I think there is a core set of beliefs that most people who call themselves Christian all believe. That's what puts them, along with most everyone else, under the Christian umbrella. Those beliefs or interpretations that set them apart define which branch of Christianity they belong to.

Even if you don't agree can you still see that from my stand point this is a reasonable interpretation? It seems more reasonable to me to assert that other Christian groups adhere to errors in understanding rather than claiming they are not really Christian. In a similar way I might argue that other evolutionists hold to errors in understanding. I would never argue that they are not true evolutionists. Whatever disagreement I might have with other evolutionists I recognize that our core beliefs make us all evolutionists. Does that make sense?

You know, I have heard it claimed by some atheists that those of their persuasion who returned to the Christian fold must never have been real atheists. That assertion is sometimes made and I don't see much difference between that and Christians claiming that members of their own who became atheists must not have ever been real Christians. Its as though neither side can understand how one of their own, having known the truth, could then turn around and do something so irrational. Yet people do move back or forth across that divide all the time and are accepted with rejoicing by their new friends.

Please know that I am not attempting to twist anything. I am trying to understand.

Sorry for the length.

I understand from an unbelievers perspective, that Christians are a wide category of religion, and includes all with similar beliefs, but I also understand from a believers perspective, that it takes a personal relationship. Growing up though I believed in Jesus, and adopted the beliefs I was raised by, I conciser myself growing up a Christian by terms of religion, but now I conciser myself a Christian in terms of relationship. I do not believe in religion, I view religion as mans attempts to make themselves righteous before God. With Jesus, he makes us righteous, it's nothing we can do on our own, he payed the full price. He loves us and wants to be with us. I have noticed trying to describe this relationship is like explaining a rainbow to a blind person. Because it's personal experience, and a personal relationship rather than experiment able evidence, and repeated observation. I think the reason why is because God is personal, and he wants us to come to him because we love him. You can't relationship with an experiment.

As far as the Creation account, I used to believe in a longer creation process, and I do believe in micro evolution, we adapt, but even before I found Jesus I couldn't trust evolution. I have read countless things on evolution and studied it and came to a 7 day literal view. If God created the world period, why couldn't he do it in 7 days? I personally believe that it is a wolf in sheeps clothing. Someone I think you would enjoy checking out is Roger Oakland, There are classes on blueletterbible.org, he teaches the science one. He used to be a biology teacher for some college, now he's a creationist.

Anyways sorry so long.

I hope this helps in anyway.