e lansing Posted August 2, 2011 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 30 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 895 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 9 Days Won: 1 Joined: 12/23/2009 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 2, 2011 if you do not know, then you have a belief system If so, you will have no problems describing my alleged belief system to me. It is a large error to mistake no knowledge on a certain subject as a belief system. Regards, UF Thats easy because I have a reliable source. I am a person that does not believe in God. Regards, UF To attempt to shoehorn non-belief as a belief is like trying to define not stamp collecting as a hobby. If you still do not understand, try this: Do you believe in the invisible pink unicorn? If you do not believe in the IPU, does this mean you have a belief system? Regards, UF However it is what one believes or not believes. who said, not to believe in something is to say one has no beliefs? Do you believe in giving? Some do and to prove such a belief they give and those who do not believe in giving, do not. We see this in politics all the time. Why do some vote one way and others vote another? Their beliefs, convictions, and most of the time opinions. If one choses not to vote, does this mean they have no beliefs? no, not voting was based upon some reason which equates to at lease an opinion, and opinions are what one believes for whatever reason. You may say, ya but its not a system, Im not talking about a system, the point is that, not to believe or to believe is a belief either way and those choices to believe or not, are based on their reasons. And for people to say they dont know if they believe that there is a god, have their reasons for stating that, which is what they believe even if its just their opinion. I believe Jesus is God in human form. I hold this belief based upon reason, historical reasons and personel experince and therefore I speak, or type, and do because of my beliefs. And so does everyone, just look at all the pages of beliefs on this forum. You may disagree and that is fine, however, you will have your reasons for your disagreement and may share them and these reasons can be defined as your beliefs. e Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UndecidedFrog Posted August 2, 2011 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 2 Topic Count: 16 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,063 Content Per Day: 0.29 Reputation: 15 Days Won: 1 Joined: 08/02/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted August 2, 2011 However it is what one believes or not believes. who said, not to believe in something is to say one has no beliefs? Do you believe in giving? Some do and to prove such a belief they give and those who do not believe in giving, do not. We see this in politics all the time. Why do some vote one way and others vote another? Their beliefs, convictions, and most of the time opinions. If one choses not to vote, does this mean they have no beliefs? no, not voting was based upon some reason which equates to at lease an opinion, and opinions are what one believes for whatever reason. You may say, ya but its not a system, Im not talking about a system, the point is that, not to believe or to believe is a belief either way and those choices to believe or not, are based on their reasons. You are mistaken. We were discussing god-beliefs, not all other beliefs. Although I do not believe in any god/s, I have plenty of other beliefs (e.g. human rights, the need for sanitary conditions in operating rooms, etc.). These other beliefs have nothing to do with any gods. To interpret my lack of god-beliefs as a belief system is irrational. My other beliefs may form a belief system, but that is not the point. You do not believe in the IPU, all other things equal, does this mean you have a belief system? My answer would be no. Compare this to the situation if you did believe in the IPU, all other things equal, does this mean you have a belief system? My answer would be maybe, depending on what doctrines you accept with that belief in the IPU. Do you understand? If you do not mean "system", please do not use the word. Please say what you mean, and avoid saying things that you do not mean. Otherwise you will confuse me. And for people to say they dont know if they believe that there is a god, have their reasons for stating that, which is what they believe even if its just their opinion. I believe Jesus is God in human form. I hold this belief based upon reason, historical reasons and personel experince and therefore I speak, or type, and do because of my beliefs. You may believe whatever you want. It just would not necessarily be truth. I do not believe because there is no reason to believe. There is no reason to believe because there is no credible evidence (in proportion to the claims) to support the existence of any god. And so does everyone, just look at all the pages of beliefs on this forum. You may disagree and that is fine, however, you will have your reasons for your disagreement and may share them and these reasons can be defined as your beliefs. Argumentum ad popularum is a fallacy. Everyone does not believe in god/s. Atheists do exist. You are overstating the situation again, and decreasing your credibility. Regards, UF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
e lansing Posted August 2, 2011 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 30 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 895 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 9 Days Won: 1 Joined: 12/23/2009 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 2, 2011 [You are mistaken. We were discussing god-beliefs, not all other beliefs. Although I do not believe in any god/s, I have plenty of other beliefs (e.g. human rights, the need for sanitary conditions in operating rooms, etc.). These other beliefs have nothing to do with any gods. To interpret my lack of god-beliefs as a belief system is irrational. My other beliefs may form a belief system, but that is not the point. Afraid not. The pointi is you state what you believe or do not believe, either way it is a belief. So you do have beliefs and one is there is no god. You do not believe in the IPU, all other things equal, does this mean you have a belief system? My answer would be no. Compare this to the situation if you did believe in the IPU, all other things equal, does this mean you have a belief system? My answer would be maybe, depending on what doctrines you accept with that belief in the IPU. Do you understand? I do understand, you just believe what you believe about whatever based on your own reasons, I just call these your beliefs and you do not. Why is a belief or the lack of any different than belief or lack of human rights? I do not see any difference at all. You have your reasons to believe in whatever and so do i, therefore we both have beliefs. Our disagreement on what the other believes is still what one believes and is based on his reason for not believing or agreeing. If you do not mean "system", please do not use the word. Please say what you mean, and avoid saying things that you do not mean. Otherwise you will confuse me. ok...lets drop the the term. my point still stands. You may believe whatever you want. It just would not necessarily be truth. I do not believe because there is no reason to believe. There is no reason to believe because there is no credible evidence (in proportion to the claims) to support the existence of any god. We both cannot be right at the same time so one of us is wrong, in terms of Jesus and who He is. Jesus did come back from the dead, this is a historical fact. Jesus did split time by giving us BC and AD. I think creation gives great reason to believe. God coming to the earth in the form of a man, named Jesus is not cridible enough for you? This certainly does not mean your opinion iabout this God-man is true because you think its not cridible enough. Jesus is the difference from all other beliefs. Our faith is based on a real person who walked the earth, who claimed to be God, no others can say the same. What makes any other god or belief the same as Christianity? Their founders are no different than the rest of us, but no one was like Jesus. Argumentum ad popularum is a fallacy. Everyone does not believe in god/s. Atheists do exist. You are overstating the situation again, and decreasing your credibility. I did not say everyone believes in god, I said we all have beliefs. My argument is not a fallacy, it is a fact of life that all persons have beliefs, some have them in god or gods and some do not, either way we all still have beliefs and using this forum is a great example of what I mean. the proof of what I mean is played out right in front of you and you are engaging in it with the rest of us, sharing your beliefs about whatever. e Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xequedox Posted August 2, 2011 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 65 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 13 Days Won: 1 Joined: 11/28/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/24/1993 Share Posted August 2, 2011 Not sure if this has been discussed, I'm sure it may have, 26 pages to look through , yikes! So I thought I would just ask. What good has come from the belief system of Atheism? I think of Lenin, Stallin, Mao, Pol Pot, Ho Chi Mihn, Kim Il Sung, Mikhal Gorbachev, Fidel Castro. I am sure there are others, but I can not seem to think of anything good these have done for humanity. ive met some great people who are athiests! ive me some horrible people who are athiests! ive met some great people who are christians! ive met some horrible people who are christians! no matter the belief system that one follows any person always thinks what their doing is good! ,no matter, whether it is right or wrong! its all a matter of where you were placed who you learned what from who. ,AND how you discern what truth is. Lol and that is always the big question isnt it? (truth) anyone/anything) you honor/know as truth) you fall under its limited capabilities as a belief or system. ~I think everyone knows this basic concept ,but i thought id throw that in. truth is usually used by someone as a means for reason for something ,but if god doesnt exist AND if God does exist theres really no reason for for being here on this silly planet. haha usually MY reason is "kindness" and "Love" ,as it seems non-logical or even by logical means everyone as a human being needs to be appreciated to fully embrace their very own potential !!!~ (and no devils love doesn't count: that's called manipulating. >.< (humans can do it too btw.) LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shiloh62 Posted August 2, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 83 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,683 Content Per Day: 0.30 Reputation: 51 Days Won: 1 Joined: 11/14/2008 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/14/1962 Share Posted August 2, 2011 ok can someone explian this to me theres and old testament and a new testament 2 testaments one used for certain period of time until it was changed makeing a new testament so did the bible at one point have only one testament and then later had the new testament added. and why keep the old testament in the same book should the be in another book called the history of the bible rathe rather than in the biblewhen we get new laws and stop the use of old laws you wouldnt keep the old laws in the same book as the new ones First of all, the Old Testament wasn't changed to make a New Testament. The Old Testament contains Mosaic Law that was used as a guideline for the people to live by until the good news of a saviour coming to this world, and Jesus birth, which necessitated a New Testament to explain God's New Covenant with the people. We are not finished using the Old Testament as you suggest, we still need to obey both the old commandments and Jesus teachings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UndecidedFrog Posted August 2, 2011 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 2 Topic Count: 16 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,063 Content Per Day: 0.29 Reputation: 15 Days Won: 1 Joined: 08/02/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted August 2, 2011 Afraid not. The pointi is you state what you believe or do not believe, either way it is a belief. So you do have beliefs and one is there is no god. You are compounding your mistake. I never claimed that I believe there is/are no god/s. I claim that I do not believe in god/s. You do not seem to understand the difference. If you do not believe in the IPU, does this mean you must believe that there is no IPU? Put on your critical thinking cap here. I do understand, you just believe what you believe about whatever based on your own reasons, I just call these your beliefs and you do not. Why is a belief or the lack of any different than belief or lack of human rights? I do not see any difference at all. You have your reasons to believe in whatever and so do i, therefore we both have beliefs. Our disagreement on what the other believes is still what one believes and is based on his reason for not believing or agreeing. It seems I am not getting through to you here. There is a very big difference between belief that there is no X, and lack of belief in X. In order to believe there is no X, one must reasonably know the contents of the entire universe to make such a claim. However, it takes no such knowledge to lack a belief in X. It is not a 0/1 scenario. It is a -1/0/1 scenario. Some people believe X exists because they think they have seen adequate evidence to support the existence of X. Other people lack a belief that X exists because they have not seen adequate evidence to support the existence of X. Yet other people believe that X does not exist because of the lack of credible evidence to support the existence of X, and the high unlikelihood of X existing comparable to the existence of many creatures from fantasy. Perhaps the indoctrination into christian dichotomous thinking has seriously handicapped your ability to grasp this idea. I reiterate my position is the "0" position. You have the "1" position. Please stop trying to frame my non-beliefs as the "-1" position. ok...lets drop the the term. my point still stands. If you drop the "system" from belief system, you are down to belief. Is non-belief still a belief in your thinking, after my explanation above? If so, I don't think we have much more to say to each other. We both cannot be right at the same time so one of us is wrong, in terms of Jesus and who He is. Jesus did come back from the dead, this is a historical fact. Jesus did split time by giving us BC and AD. I think creation gives great reason to believe. God coming to the earth in the form of a man, named Jesus is not cridible enough for you? This certainly does not mean your opinion iabout this God-man is true because you think its not cridible enough. Jesus is the difference from all other beliefs. Our faith is based on a real person who walked the earth, who claimed to be God, no others can say the same. What makes any other god or belief the same as Christianity? Their founders are no different than the rest of us, but no one was like Jesus. You claim that JC's alleged resurrection is historical fact. What is the evidence to support your claim? You claim that JC gave us BC and AD. What is the evidence that he did so? I have evidence that the dating convention was not invented by JC. You claim that creation gives reason to believe. What evidence do you have that creation occurred? You claim that god came down to earth (in the form of a man). What evidence do you have to support that claim? etc. You make a lot of unsupported claims and assertions. As such, I discard them. What is presented without credible evidence can be discarded without thought. Anyone can claim anything. I did not say everyone believes in god, I said we all have beliefs. That is not true. You did say everyone believe in god. Here is your entire quote (my bold added): However it is what one believes or not believes. who said, not to believe in something is to say one has no beliefs? Do you believe in giving? Some do and to prove such a belief they give and those who do not believe in giving, do not. We see this in politics all the time. Why do some vote one way and others vote another? Their beliefs, convictions, and most of the time opinions. If one choses not to vote, does this mean they have no beliefs? no, not voting was based upon some reason which equates to at lease an opinion, and opinions are what one believes for whatever reason. You may say, ya but its not a system, Im not talking about a system, the point is that, not to believe or to believe is a belief either way and those choices to believe or not, are based on their reasons. And for people to say they dont know if they believe that there is a god, have their reasons for stating that, which is what they believe even if its just their opinion. I believe Jesus is God in human form. I hold this belief based upon reason, historical reasons and personel experince and therefore I speak, or type, and do because of my beliefs. And so does everyone, just look at all the pages of beliefs on this forum. You may disagree and that is fine, however, you will have your reasons for your disagreement and may share them and these reasons can be defined as your beliefs. You claimed everyone believes Jesus is God in human form. You even attempted to support that claim by pointing to the pages of beliefs on this forum. Regards, UF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
esyflw Posted August 2, 2011 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 19 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/03/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted August 2, 2011 if you do not know, then you have a belief system If so, you will have no problems describing my alleged belief system to me. It is a large error to mistake no knowledge on a certain subject as a belief system. Regards, UF Thats easy because I have a reliable source. I am a person that does not believe in God. Regards, UF To attempt to shoehorn non-belief as a belief is like trying to define not stamp collecting as a hobby. If you still do not understand, try this: Do you believe in the invisible pink unicorn? If you do not believe in the IPU, does this mean you have a belief system? Regards, UF I am now sided with OP in that the use of belief system was properly used here. I found this quote: A belief system is a set of mutually supportive beliefs. The beliefs may be religious, philosophical, ideological or a combination of these. The British philosopher Stephen Law has described some belief systems (including belief in homeopathy, psychic powers and alien abduction) as "claptrap" and said that they "draw people in and hold them captive so they become willing slaves ... if you get sucked in, it can be extremely difficult to think your way clear again". You dont know God exist yet you know there are no pink unicorns. Maybe we can call your belief system a softer Athiest? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UndecidedFrog Posted August 2, 2011 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 2 Topic Count: 16 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,063 Content Per Day: 0.29 Reputation: 15 Days Won: 1 Joined: 08/02/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted August 2, 2011 You dont know God exist yet you know there are no pink unicorns. Maybe we can call your belief system a softer Athiest? You are mistaken. I don't know if either god/s or the IPU exist. Regards, UF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 3, 2011 Share Posted August 3, 2011 Is this a belief - there is no God? Could I say, "What is his beliefs concerning God?" - if the response is "He is an atheist.", wouldn't that be considered the atheists "belief"? Seems so to me - Atheism is a belief system. PS - it's irrational to say point blank that there is no Creator when nature and the human body screams of an Intelligent Designer. There is probably a good case for saying that in reality all Atheists are by very definition Agnostics... the only one qualified to be an Atheist would actually be G-d Himself. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 2 Peter 3:5-7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UndecidedFrog Posted August 18, 2011 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 2 Topic Count: 16 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,063 Content Per Day: 0.29 Reputation: 15 Days Won: 1 Joined: 08/02/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted August 18, 2011 What good has come from atheism? That's just like asking what good has come from having red hair? Sure there are people who have red hair that have done many good things for the world. Sure there are people who are atheists that have done many good things for the world. Neither having red hair, or being an atheist mean that you belong to a religion. People who have done good things that happen to have red hair never claimed that their acts were based on having red hair. People who have done good things that happen to be atheist never claimed that their acts were based on atheism. Similarly, neither people with red hair or atheists have done bad things and claimed them in the name of red hair or atheism. Not so for religions. Sure, there are people who claim to be christians that have done many good things for the world and claim that they are inspired to do so by christianity. And there are also people who claim to be christians that have done some very bad things for the world claiming that their behavior is justified by christianity. Regards, UF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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