Predestination?

[BlindSeeker]

You are claiming that the scripture was never fulfilled, meaning that you believe that God lied (1).

Your insight into my beliefs and convictions are mind boggling. I ask a simple question which you have failed to properly answer . . . therefore I must be making a claim and attacking the righteousness and holiness of my Savior and Redeemer.

You answered the scriptures with assumptive reasoning how Esau simply must of had to of been Jacob

[BlindSeeker]

OK Blindseeker. Rather than deal with the back and forth where I say you call God a liar and you accuse me of failing to rightly divide scripture along with numerous other things, I am simply going to deal with the actual prophecy. I did say that I believed that the prophecies were dealing with Jacob and Esau as individuals and that it also went beyond that and dealt with their decendants. Where we agree is on the decendants. Where we disagree is regarding Jacob and Esau.

You posted a lot of scriptures, but there is one important passage you left out where Isaac imparted the blessing and birthright to Jacob. Let's begin with Genesis 27:27-29

27 And he came near, and kissed him: and he smelled the smell of his rainment, and blessed him, and said, See, the smell of my son is as the smell of a field which the LORD hath blessed.

28 Therefore God give thee of the dew of heaven, and the fatness of the earth, and plenty of corn and wine:

29 Let people serve thee, and nations bow down to thee: be lord over thy brethren, and let thy mother's son bow down to thee: cursed be every one that curseth thee, and blessed be he that blesseth thee.

This is where Isaac blessed Jacob. Now we move down to verses 35-40 where Isaac is speaking to Esau.

35 And he said, Thy brother came with subtility, and hath taken away thy blessing.

36 And he said, Is not he rightly named Jacob? for he hath supplanted me these two times: he took away my birthright; and, behold, now he hath taken away my blessing, And he said, Hast thou not reserved a blessing for me?

37 And Isaac answered and said unto Esau, Behold, I have made him thy lord, and all his brethren have I given to him for servants; and with corn and wine have I sustained him: and what shall I do now unto thee, my son?

38 And Esau said unto his father, Hast thou but one blessing, my father? bless me, even me also, O my father, and Esau lifted up his voice, and wept.

39 And Isaac his father answered and said unto him, Behold, thy dwelling shall be the fatness of the earth, and of the dew of heaven from above;

40 And by thy sword shalt thou live, and shalt serve thy brother; and it shall come to pass when thou shalt have the dominion, that thou shalt break his yoke from off thy neck.

As I said, I agree with you that the prophecies go deeper than just the twins, but the prophecy includes the twins.

Never mind what his descendants did . . . did Esau curse or blessed Jacob in the end?

According to that part of the prophecy, would he be cursed or blessed?

As for your question about whosoever, it does apply to whosoever, but everyone won't accept Christ. The question is, why do some accept him, while others reject him? God is quite capable of creating one person with a soft heart that will accept Christ and also creating someone else with a hard heart that won't accept Christ. The same God that created Judas Iscariot also created John the beloved. I don't have to force anything to believe in predestination. I could just as easily say you are forcing a false interpretation.

Matthew 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

The whole world is called, but not chosen.

God is also quite capable of making men with wings and/or gills . . . God's ability is not in question. The question is what God has done, doing and will do . . . . and why.

Why are few chosen?

Re 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are

called

, and

chosen

, and

faithful

.

[enoob57]

Obviously I believe it, but I don't agree with what you perceive to be the implications of this passage. Just because we cannot comprehend God fully, does not mean we cannot know anything about Him or reality. The implication you seem to be making is that we can't know anything.

You have missed what I have written but to be more precise when you know Godly people both sides of issues with apparent Scripture in support how do you determine those limits? To continue one way or the other would then become subjective as to internal intuition? Our logical tension does exist in God's Word don't you agree?

Love Steven

[BlindSeeker]

Esau and Jacob had a heart felt reunion. That has nothing to do with the fact Jacob was head of his brethren as a result of gaining the birthright and blessing. I never claimed Jacob or Esau were cursed, so I don't know what you are talking about? I just posted a passage of scripture that happened to mention that those who cursed Jacob would be cursed and those that blessed him would be blessed. I never even claimed Esau would be cursed. I just stated that the prophecy given to Jacob and Esau applied to them personally as well as their decendants.

You are, and have been asserting that Roman's states that Esau was predetermined to go to hell.

God reveals himself to those he wishes to reveal himself to. Why do you have a Christian family where the parents do all they can to lead them in the right way, and one child turns out bad, or why do you have the children of an atheist all become non-believers but one? You hear these kind of stories all the time.

And that relates to . . . .?

What about the be attitudes?

Mt 5:6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

.

[BlindSeeker]

I would also add, what does the chosen represent. Does it mean that God chooses who will be saved. But then that is in direct conflict in that He desires that none should perish. So what does being chosen represent, what does called represent?

The blood of Jesus is sufficient to cleanse the sins of every man and woman on the face of the earth, yet some will accept Christ and others will reject Christ. Why? Some might say it is according to complete free will, but it makes more sense that God chooses those he desires to be saved. I don't believe that Judas Iscariot had any choice but to be the betrayer. He was created for that purpose. I don't believe Peter had the ability to go against the will of the Lord after he was told he would deny him three times before the cock crows twice. I don't believe Pharoah had any choice but to resist Moses, and Moses had no choice but to be the deliverer.

The Bible is pretty plain about that. If it was not so, then it would be possible that the whole human race could repent in sackcloth and ashes and escape the great tribulation period. Is that a realistic possibility, given the fact that God has already spoken how things will turn out?

Like I said . . . from where your standing it looks this way. There's nothing wrong with what you're looking at, just from where you're viewing it. You are willing to have a God who made people for an eternity of torment for nothing of their own doing . . . mere programed robots with souls destined to eternal agony.

I am glad to be position different than you.

[EricH]

Obviously I believe it, but I don't agree with what you perceive to be the implications of this passage. Just because we cannot comprehend God fully, does not mean we cannot know anything about Him or reality. The implication you seem to be making is that we can't know anything.

You have missed what I have written but to be more precise when you know Godly people both sides of issues with apparent Scripture in support how do you determine those limits? To continue one way or the other would then become subjective as to internal intuition? Our logical tension does exist in God's Word don't you agree?

Love Steven

The fact that a person is Godly, does not guarantee that everything they believe is true, nor that I should give their position weight. If two Godly people believe 2 contradictory things, they cannot both be true. One or the other (or neither) may be true. Their Godliness is not a cause for me to pass or suspend judgement. To be subjective would be to base what I believe on my own (or someone else's) feelings. Fact is based on objective truth which we find in scipture and in certain cases in our observations of the world around us. My (or anyone else's)character (or lack of it) does not change that objective reality.

Logical contraditions do not exist in God's word.

[enoob57]

Obviously I believe it, but I don't agree with what you perceive to be the implications of this passage. Just because we cannot comprehend God fully, does not mean we cannot know anything about Him or reality. The implication you seem to be making is that we can't know anything.

You have missed what I have written but to be more precise when you know Godly people both sides of issues with apparent Scripture in support how do you determine those limits? To continue one way or the other would then become subjective as to internal intuition? Our logical tension does exist in God's Word don't you agree?

Love Steven

The fact that a person is Godly, does not guarantee that everything they believe is true, nor that I should give their position weight. If two Godly people believe 2 contradictory things, they cannot both be true. One or the other (or neither) may be true. Their Godliness is not a cause for me to pass or suspend judgement. To be subjective would be to base what I believe on my own (or someone else's) feelings. Fact is based on objective truth which we find in scipture and in certain cases in our observations of the world around us. My (or anyone else's)character (or lack of it) does not change that objective reality.

Logical contraditions do not exist in God's word.

Our logical tension does exist in God's Word don't you agree? my statement

Logical contraditions do not exist in God's word. your reply

Note the key word in my statement is Our logical tension not the bibles logical tension. The beginning primer of truth is we are to renew our mind to God's Word! Thank you for your replies! Love Steven

[BlindSeeker]

I would also add, what does the chosen represent. Does it mean that God chooses who will be saved. But then that is in direct conflict in that He desires that none should perish. So what does being chosen represent, what does called represent?

The blood of Jesus is sufficient to cleanse the sins of every man and woman on the face of the earth, yet some will accept Christ and others will reject Christ. Why? Some might say it is according to complete free will, but it makes more sense that God chooses those he desires to be saved. I don't believe that Judas Iscariot had any choice but to be the betrayer. He was created for that purpose. I don't believe Peter had the ability to go against the will of the Lord after he was told he would deny him three times before the cock crows twice. I don't believe Pharoah had any choice but to resist Moses, and Moses had no choice but to be the deliverer.

The Bible is pretty plain about that. If it was not so, then it would be possible that the whole human race could repent in sackcloth and ashes and escape the great tribulation period. Is that a realistic possibility, given the fact that God has already spoken how things will turn out?

Like I said . . . from where your standing it looks this way. There's nothing wrong with what you're looking at, just from where you're viewing it. You are willing to have a God who made people for an eternity of torment for nothing of their own doing . . . mere programed robots with souls destined to eternal agony.

I am glad to be position different than you.

You say I am "willing to have a God who made people for an eternity of torment for nothing of their own doing." What choice do I have? Am I to create a god of my own imagination that is more to my liking? I don't know how many people I have come across that refuse to accept a lot of the Old Testament because they don't like a God that was a God of war, or that would allow slavery or polygamy. Who are we to presume to say how God should be? He is who he is. I am content to accept God as he is.

Romans 9:19-24

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

There came the argument of the the ignorant who had swallowed the lie that everything that is, and will happen, is but the predetermined plan of God. Therefore they cast blame on Him for their own state of wickedness, "Why doth He yet find fault? For who hath resisted His will?"

Yet it was God's graces and enduring long-suffering that was meant to bring them to repentance that He might heal them as a nation. God was not the shaper of their iniquity, rather their only Provider of a remedy. Yet when they cast His words behind them then in His righterousness He will certainly do all that which He has said concerning the nation of Israel . . . then (70 (AD) now "fitted for destruction."

Or perhaps you missed that Paul was again teaching by "that which was written" concerning God as the potter of Israel . . .

Jer 18:1 The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,

2 Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear My words.

3 Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels.

4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying,

6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in Mine hand, O house of Israel.

7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;

8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.

9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;

10 If it [NATION OR KINGDOM] do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.

All through Romans I have shown you the scriptures which Paul declared was able to make them wise unto salvation, scriptures that spoke of God's sovereignty and righteousness as He was about to break off Israel, pouring out His wrath upon her while He sends forth His Gospel to the surrounding nation making it possible for the Gentiles to become joint heirs and partakers of the commonwealth of Israel.

There are answers to all the questions concerning God as a Warrior and "slavery" and "polygamy" that would actually enlighten the honest seeker and glorify God in His wisdom and mercies. These are not difficult things we must just accept as is . . .

Pr 4:7 Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and

with all thy getting get understanding

.

Pr 16:16 How much better is it to get wisdom than gold! and to get understanding rather to be chosen than silver!

.

[HitmanR2]

I have missed so much on this topic, I am sorry.

I do not believe that our lives are left to chance. If God has a purpose for our lives, it is not a frantic last minute plan devised by God after we were born. When we think that so much of this is left to us, we tend to try to make God a whole lot less God, and a whole lot more like us.

Whether you feel that way or not, we must agree that God is just in all that he does.

[EricH]

Obviously I believe it, but I don't agree with what you perceive to be the implications of this passage. Just because we cannot comprehend God fully, does not mean we cannot know anything about Him or reality. The implication you seem to be making is that we can't know anything.

You have missed what I have written but to be more precise when you know Godly people both sides of issues with apparent Scripture in support how do you determine those limits? To continue one way or the other would then become subjective as to internal intuition? Our logical tension does exist in God's Word don't you agree?

Love Steven

The fact that a person is Godly, does not guarantee that everything they believe is true, nor that I should give their position weight. If two Godly people believe 2 contradictory things, they cannot both be true. One or the other (or neither) may be true. Their Godliness is not a cause for me to pass or suspend judgement. To be subjective would be to base what I believe on my own (or someone else's) feelings. Fact is based on objective truth which we find in scipture and in certain cases in our observations of the world around us. My (or anyone else's)character (or lack of it) does not change that objective reality.

Logical contraditions do not exist in God's word.

Our logical tension does exist in God's Word don't you agree? my statement

Logical contraditions do not exist in God's word. your reply

Note the key word in my statement is Our logical tension not the bibles logical tension. The beginning primer of truth is we are to renew our mind to God's Word! Thank you for your replies! Love Steven

Our logical tensions do not exist "in" the word. The problem we run into in these types of discussions is we don't define our terms carefully enough. There are three key terms

1. Contradiction - A contradiction exists when something is A and not A at the same time and in the same relationship. For example consider the statement, I am a Father and a Son. This could appear (at first glance) to be a contradiction. However, I could be a son to my father, and at the same time a father to my son. Therefore this is not a contradiction. However, I cannot be a father to my father and a son to my father at the same time. Contradictions cannot exist in reality and they do not exist in scripture.

2. Paradox - A paradox is something that appears on the surface to be a contradiction, until it is more fully understood (or examined). The Triunity of God is a great example of a paradox. God's triunity states that He exists eternally in three persons with one being or essence. Some will hold that this is a contradiction (God is three and one). However, when the statement is examined more closely, it does not fit the strict definition of a contradiction. It is true that this statement maintains that God is one and three at the same time. But it does not maintain that He is one and three in the same relationship. He is one in His essence or being and three in personhood. This is a paradox. It is a paradox because we do not understand fully all of the distinctions between being and personhood. So we cannot fully resolve it in our own minds.

3. Mystery - A mystery is something that was previously unknown, but now has become known. The full implications of Gentile inclusion in the gospel are a great example of a mystery in scripture.

I have become its minister, according to God's administration that was given to me for you, to make God's message fully known, the mystery hidden for ages and generations but now revealed to His saints. God wanted to make known to those among the Gentiles the glorious wealth of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

(Colossians 1:25-27 HCSB)

I have stated all of the above to give you perspective on why I am hesitant to sign off carte blanche on what you seem to be suggesting. As classically stated, Godly people in both the Arminian camp and the Calvinist camp hold positions that are logically contradictory to each other. So it is impossible for me to just leave it at that because they are both Godly, or to imply that scripture leads folks to contradictory positions.

Rather, I believe that what we are dealing with here is a paradox (in terms of the tension between Divine sovereignty and human choice). Since Calvinism and Arminianism deal with this tension in ways that lead to contradictory conclusions, I am forced to conclude that the problem is probably in the area of definition (of terms like freedom). So rather than punt and leave people believeing that we can hold logically contradictory positions based on scirpture, I prefer to explore the biblical definitions of the terms to see if a good understanding removes the contradiction and leaves is with a paradox or mystery (which is OK)