An Evaluation of Evidence for the Age of the Universe

[~candice~]

D9 at some point, you are going to run into the problem of genealogies. They list the family tree of Jesus, going all the way back to Adam. At what point did this list switch from fiction to fact . Why are so many details given about the lives of people who were mythological .

With Jesus there are two genealogies and they don't line up with the other, so by default at least one of them is fictitious. And why are so many details given about the lives of people who obviously didn't exist in Homer's Iliad and Odyssey? Apparently such detail was significant enough to include it in the literature. There are many roles people take on in literature and in the Bible. A good way to show how great a person was in their role was through a story about them. And as many cultures combined history and mythology so too did the Hebrews.

I think many of us have a different approach to Scripture.

When something in the Bible appears to be unclear, not possible, a contradiction or an apparent mistake, I have learnt that either I do not understand the passage in its proper context, or that the full message of what is being said eludes me...and like many others I have a number of things on the back-burner that I may not find an answer to in my life-time, but which do not flummox me or cause me to in any way be cautious about the veracity of Scripture.

What I do not do, and am not prepared to do, is to side with human reasoning and logic, against Scripture, so that I bring it down to the limited level of my own understanding.

In this instance concerning the two recorded geneologies, there are various attempts found to make sense of them in a Jewish context, that can be accessed on the internet, together with a plethora of examples that try to use this apparent anomaly to discredit the Bible, mostly utilised by Atheistic sites. Somewhere in between are those like yourself, who because of your overall approach to Scripture are happy enough to call one or both fallacious and leave it at that....to me this emasculates the import and authority of Scripture watering it down to a weak, insipid and ineffective collection of writings that have some good parts to them, but are rife with inconsistancies.

This is in sharp contrast to what we find in Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

I am also reminded of this verse in Ecc 7:29 "Behold, I have found only this, that God made men upright, but they have sought out many devices."

Perplexed, yes, but not in despair (2 Cor 4:8).

[Botz]

D9 at some point, you are going to run into the problem of genealogies. They list the family tree of Jesus, going all the way back to Adam. At what point did this list switch from fiction to fact . Why are so many details given about the lives of people who were mythological .

With Jesus there are two genealogies and they don't line up with the other, so by default at least one of them is fictitious. And why are so many details given about the lives of people who obviously didn't exist in Homer's Iliad and Odyssey? Apparently such detail was significant enough to include it in the literature. There are many roles people take on in literature and in the Bible. A good way to show how great a person was in their role was through a story about them. And as many cultures combined history and mythology so too did the Hebrews.

I think many of us have a different approach to Scripture.

When something in the Bible appears to be unclear, not possible, a contradiction or an apparent mistake, I have learnt that either I do not understand the passage in its proper context, or that the full message of what is being said eludes me...and like many others I have a number of things on the back-burner that I may not find an answer to in my life-time, but which do not flummox me or cause me to in any way be cautious about the veracity of Scripture.

What I do not do, and am not prepared to do, is to side with human reasoning and logic, against Scripture, so that I bring it down to the limited level of my own understanding.

In this instance concerning the two recorded geneologies, there are various attempts found to make sense of them in a Jewish context, that can be accessed on the internet, together with a plethora of examples that try to use this apparent anomaly to discredit the Bible, mostly utilised by Atheistic sites. Somewhere in between are those like yourself, who because of your overall approach to Scripture are happy enough to call one or both fallacious and leave it at that....to me this emasculates the import and authority of Scripture watering it down to a weak, insipid and ineffective collection of writings that have some good parts to them, but are rife with inconsistancies.

This is in sharp contrast to what we find in Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

I am also reminded of this verse in Ecc 7:29 "Behold, I have found only this, that God made men upright, but they have sought out many devices."

I would also like to reiterate that the Bible has many different types of writing contained in it, some historical, some poetic, some allegorical, some prophetic etc etc, but we cannot try and ascribe our own definitions to a section if we take it out of context because it would not make sense in the proper understanding of Scripture....

For example to look at the Ark and describe it as allegorical would be non-sensical as it is written as historical narrative, and would break the rules for proper textual exergesis. Similarly the geneology of Jesus is contained in a historical eye-witness perspective...and staying with the thought you had earlier....why would G-d put it there just to deceive or diliberately fudge the issue. I know many of us (me included) are happy enough to leave it there and just believe that Jesus was descended from David as the Bible declares, and I don't feel any need to try and explain why Matthew seems to contradict Luke...I know and believe.... it just seems that way. That doesn't mean putting ones head in the sand...it means there are numerous issues that one could spend ones whole life challenging and arguing about, but it often proves fruitless and faithless, feeding intellectual curiosity while neglecting the spirit.

There are many side-tracks....many inventions.

There is nothing edifying about trying to disprove/discredit Scripture, or disbelieving what has been written in order to satisfy the intellect when it is rooted in the flesh and through pride seeks answers over what G-d has declared and promised....that is not living by faith...it is living in disbelief, and to my mind is clearly a house built upon sand.

[spiritman]

D9 at some point, you are going to run into the problem of genealogies. They list the family tree of Jesus, going all the way back to Adam. At what point did this list switch from fiction to fact . Why are so many details given about the lives of people who were mythological .

With Jesus there are two genealogies and they don't line up with the other, so by default at least one of them is fictitious. And why are so many details given about the lives of people who obviously didn't exist in Homer's Iliad and Odyssey? Apparently such detail was significant enough to include it in the literature. There are many roles people take on in literature and in the Bible. A good way to show how great a person was in their role was through a story about them. And as many cultures combined history and mythology so too did the Hebrews.

I think many of us have a different approach to Scripture.

When something in the Bible appears to be unclear, not possible, a contradiction or an apparent mistake, I have learnt that either I do not understand the passage in its proper context, or that the full message of what is being said eludes me...and like many others I have a number of things on the back-burner that I may not find an answer to in my life-time, but which do not flummox me or cause me to in any way be cautious about the veracity of Scripture.

What I do not do, and am not prepared to do, is to side with human reasoning and logic, against Scripture, so that I bring it down to the limited level of my own understanding.

In this instance concerning the two recorded geneologies, there are various attempts found to make sense of them in a Jewish context, that can be accessed on the internet, together with a plethora of examples that try to use this apparent anomaly to discredit the Bible, mostly utilised by Atheistic sites. Somewhere in between are those like yourself, who because of your overall approach to Scripture are happy enough to call one or both fallacious and leave it at that....to me this emasculates the import and authority of Scripture watering it down to a weak, insipid and ineffective collection of writings that have some good parts to them, but are rife with inconsistancies.

This is in sharp contrast to what we find in Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

I am also reminded of this verse in Ecc 7:29 "Behold, I have found only this, that God made men upright, but they have sought out many devices."

I would also like to reiterate that the Bible has many different types of writing contained in it, some historical, some poetic, some allegorical, some prophetic etc etc, but we cannot try and ascribe our own definitions to a section if we take it out of context because it would not make sense in the proper understanding of Scripture....

For example to look at the Ark and describe it as allegorical would be non-sensical as it is written as historical narrative, and would break the rules for proper textual exergesis. Similarly the geneology of Jesus is contained in a historical eye-witness perspective...and staying with the thought you had earlier....why would G-d put it there just to deceive or diliberately fudge the issue. I know many of us (me included) are happy enough to leave it there and just believe that Jesus was descended from David as the Bible declares, and I don't feel any need to try and explain why Matthew seems to contradict Luke...I know and believe.... it just seems that way. That doesn't mean putting ones head in the sand...it means there are numerous issues that one could spend ones whole life challenging and arguing about, but it often proves fruitless and faithless, feeding intellectual curiosity while neglecting the spirit.

There are many side-tracks....many inventions.

There is nothing edifying about trying to disprove/discredit Scripture, or disbelieving what has been written in order to satisfy the intellect when it is rooted in the flesh and through pride seeks answers over what G-d has declared and promised....that is not living by faith...it is living in disbelief, and to my mind is clearly a house built upon sand.

Hi Botz,

The explaintion of the so called contradiction of the two genealogies, is not a contradiction at all. It's quite simple really if one thinks about it. You have two different Individuals experiencing the same thing, Even though they are experiencing the same thing, there will be diffferences in their intepretations. Matthew will place details in his writings that he feels are important leaving some out, that he feels aren't. And Luke will do the same.

Try this experiment. Ask one of your family members or a friend to look at an object with you make it have as much detail as possible, then each of you write down what you noticed about that object. You both looked at the same object, but more than likely you both will have differences in your observations.

[Botz]

Hi Botz,

The explaintion of the so called contradiction of the two genealogies, is not a contradiction at all. It's quite simple really if one thinks about it. You have two different Individuals experiencing the same thing, Even though they are experiencing the same thing, there will be diffferences in their intepretations. Matthew will place details in his writings that he feels are important leaving some out, that he feels aren't. And Luke will do the same.

Try this experiment. Ask one of your family members or a friend to look at an object with you make it have as much detail as possible, then each of you write down what you noticed about that object. You both looked at the same object, but more than likely you both will have differences in your observations.

Hi bro...No worries, I completely understand that.

When I briefly mention it as a so-called contradiction, I simply mean that is how is might appear to some people...of course it isn't a contradiction, as the Bible does not contradict itself, and when it appears that people have found a contradiction, all they have done in many cases is jump to a wrong conclusion and presumed 2+2=5.

I think in the case of the two separate geneologies, they are perfectly straight-forward, when you understand that there might be some name differences, and that it is conceivable and acceptable for the writers to skip several generations...they weren't necessarily aiming for a precise account of every single person involved in the geneology, but were giving a condensed version just to demonstrate the physical evidence for Yeshua ben Yosef being of the Royal line of David, as foretold and promised by the Father.

This satisfies me...it might not satisfy others, but then it is not something I have ever sought to prove. We are encouraged to be able to give an answer to the hope that is within us.

1 Peter 3: 13 Who is there to harm you if you prove zealous for what is good? 14 But even if you should suffer for the sake of righteousness, you are blessed. AND DO NOT FEAR THEIR INTIMIDATION, AND DO NOT BE TROUBLED, 15 but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence; 16 and keep a good conscience so that in the thing in which you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ will be put to shame.

To my mind that does not mean having to dot every i and cross every t....some of us will be more capable at explaining some things than others, some will have a more intellectual approach, others a friendly kind demeanor...others thrusting and challenging....but all of us who know the L-rd have the knowledge of His presence, and can by our very 'born again nature', give an explanation of whom we have believed in and trusted for our redemption.

One thing I remember when I was being led to the L-rd over a period of several years...I had many questions, which I thought were very reasonable, and with them I was able to fend off anything getting too close and personal....it was much easier to talk about the innocent babies who die without a chance of knowing G-d, or why He should allow so much suffering in the world through starvation and natural disasters, than to have my own sinful nature challenged, and the brevity of life high-lighted.

When the Spirit of G-d finally pierces a persons hard rebellious heart full of pride and self-justification...then all the questions and prior concerns become inconsequencial in the light of the need to repent and receive His forgiveness, and what was once so desperately important, vanishes with the joy of knowing His love.

That doesn't mean our questions, hopes, and fears are unimportant....but it brings home what is truly important, and the vast difference between just words and ideas, compared to the One who has Words of Eternal Life....and who brings about a complete change of heart.....in fact a New heart.

[spiritman]

Hi Botz,

The explaintion of the so called contradiction of the two genealogies, is not a contradiction at all. It's quite simple really if one thinks about it. You have two different Individuals experiencing the same thing, Even though they are experiencing the same thing, there will be diffferences in their intepretations. Matthew will place details in his writings that he feels are important leaving some out, that he feels aren't. And Luke will do the same.

Try this experiment. Ask one of your family members or a friend to look at an object with you make it have as much detail as possible, then each of you write down what you noticed about that object. You both looked at the same object, but more than likely you both will have differences in your observations.

Hi bro...No worries, I completely understand that.

When I briefly mention it as a so-called contradiction, I simply mean that is how is might appear to some people...of course it isn't a contradiction, as the Bible does not contradict itself, and when it appears that people have found a contradiction, all they have done in many cases is jump to a wrong conclusion and presumed 2+2=5.

I think in the case of the two separate geneologies, they are perfectly straight-forward, when you understand that there might be some name differences, and that it is conceivable and acceptable for the writers to skip several generations...they weren't necessarily aiming for a precise account of every single person involved in the geneology, but were giving a condensed version just to demonstrate the physical evidence for Yeshua ben Yosef being of the Royal line of David, as foretold and promised by the Father.

This satisfies me...it might not satisfy others, but then it is not something I have ever sought to prove. We are encouraged to be able to give an answer to the hope that is within us.

1 Peter 3: 13 Who is there to harm you if you prove zealous for what is good? 14 But even if you should suffer for the sake of righteousness, you are blessed. AND DO NOT FEAR THEIR INTIMIDATION, AND DO NOT BE TROUBLED, 15 but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence; 16 and keep a good conscience so that in the thing in which you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ will be put to shame.

To my mind that does not mean having to dot every i and cross every t....some of us will be more capable at explaining some things than others, some will have a more intellectual approach, others a friendly kind demeanor...others thrusting and challenging....but all of us who know the L-rd have the knowledge of His presence, and can by our very 'born again nature', give an explanation of whom we have believed in and trusted for our redemption.

One thing I remember when I was being led to the L-rd over a period of several years...I had many questions, which I thought were very reasonable, and with them I was able to fend off anything getting too close and personal....it was much easier to talk about the innocent babies who die without a chance of knowing G-d, or why He should allow so much suffering in the world through starvation and natural disasters, than to have my own sinful nature challenged, and the brevity of life high-lighted.

When the Spirit of G-d finally pierces a persons hard rebellious heart full of pride and self-justification...then all the questions and prior concerns become inconsequencial in the light of the need to repent and receive His forgiveness, and what was once so desperately important, vanishes with the joy of knowing His love.

That doesn't mean our questions, hopes, and fears are unimportant....but it brings home what is truly important, and the vast difference between just words and ideas, compared to the One who has Words of Eternal Life....and who brings about a complete change of heart.....in fact a New heart.

Hi Brother,

I totally agree with you. I guess the main reason why I chose your post to respond to this, is because I heard this Genology thing mentioned several times, and I was concerned that there might be a new believer reading about it. I have a habit of when I'm reading these posts, thinking things like; " What if a new believer is reading this and they wonder about it." So when I don't see an indepth explaination then I try and post one. I should have replied more to D-9 then, you sorry brother.

I have read many of your posts and consider you a well versed Christian in the faith. God Bless you.

Spiritman

[Guest]

.... Okay. . .so how do you interpret Joshua 10:12-13 without relying on human reasoning and logic? You make it seem like Christians haven't always used reason and logic to understand scripture....

Well Yes! Of Course Logically To Him Who Easily Did This

When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained; Psalms 8:3

This Was A Piece Of Cake

And it came to pass, as they fled from before Israel, and were in the going down to Beth-horon, that the LORD cast down great stones from heaven upon them unto Azekah, and they died: they were more which died with hailstones than they whom the children of Israel slew with the sword.

Then spake Joshua to the LORD in the day when the LORD delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, Moon, in the valley of Ajalon.

And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.

And there was no day like that before it or after it, that the LORD hearkened unto the voice of a man: for the LORD fought for Israel. Joshua 10:11-14

What! You Think God Can't Throw Snow Balls?

[Botz]

When something in the Bible appears to be unclear, not possible, a contradiction or an apparent mistake, I have learnt that either I do not understand the passage in its proper context, or that the full message of what is being said eludes me...and like many others I have a number of things on the back-burner that I may not find an answer to in my life-time, but which do not flummox me or cause me to in any way be cautious about the veracity of Scripture.

What I do not do, and am not prepared to do, is to side with human reasoning and logic, against Scripture, so that I bring it down to the limited level of my own understanding.

Okay. . .so how do you interpret Joshua 10:12-13 without relying on human reasoning and logic? You make it seem like Christians haven't always used reason and logic to understand scripture.

Lurker

Hi there Lurker....Yes you are probably right, at times it might well seem that I am saying Believers shouldn't rely on reason and logic....but actually that would be throwing the baby out with the bath-water, because all of us use reason and logic....but my point was that in terms of Scriptural evidence for numerous things, reason and logic will only take you so far....and we are not encouraged to go through life relying on reason and logic, but to develop a life-style of faith.

2 Cor 5:7 "....for we walk by faith, not by sight..."

You might describe 'faith' as the 'sixth sense'.

You bring up a case in point with that passage from Joshua....human logic would tell you it is an impossibility for such a thing to happen, and that this portion of Scripture is pure fantasy...faith will tell you that G-d made it happen, and the natural laws that we have codified were suspended....very much in the same vein that the Heavens and the Earth were originally created....you get those that will tell you it could not happen the way it is described in Genesis as cosmological and physics laws would be broken...light can't come from some other source etc etc.

These things are appropriated through faith...which is not the antithesis of reason or logic, but there are certain things that we will never fully understand (I certainly won't) that G-d doesn't explain in great detail and which we can only comprehend through faith....which equates with believing G-d, and trusting the biblical accounts.

Without trying to be a smart-ass, in spiritual terms, it is logical and reasonable to believe things through faith and trust the L-rd....so we can see there is a Worldly Logic that generally seeks human explanations whilst cutting G-d out of the equation, and there is Believers Logic which can incorporate faith...where we even dare to believe things we don't yet understand.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. 2 For by it the men of old gained approval. 3 By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible.

To the worldly mind that is devoid of G-d and without knowledge of His Son, faith is mere foolishness, and must fall beneath the onslaught of modern scientific research and the proud philosophies of man.

All the best. Botz

PS.....By the way, how do you explain the passage in Joshua?

[MorningGlory]

You bring up a case in point with that passage from Joshua....human logic would tell you it is an impossibility for such a thing to happen, and that this portion of Scripture is pure fantasy...faith will tell you that G-d made it happen, and the natural laws that we have codified were suspended....very much in the same vein that the Heavens and the Earth were originally created....you get those that will tell you it could not happen the way it is described in Genesis as cosmological and physics laws would be broken...light can't come from some other source etc etc.

The problem with the passage is not that it describes a miracle, it's that it describes both the sun and moon as moving relative to the earth when we know that in point of fact the earth moves relative to the sun. This reflects the common geocentric cosmology of the time.

Lurker

You have brought up the passage from Joshua over and over again, Lurker. It has been explained to you time and again.

The Bible is NOT a science book; it is written from the viewpoint of mortals who lived at that time using the references that made sense to them. Why, as a Christian, do you feel it's okay to try to debunk Scripture? That shows NO faith........ not an inquisitive mind.

[BlindSeeker]

You bring up a case in point with that passage from Joshua....human logic would tell you it is an impossibility for such a thing to happen, and that this portion of Scripture is pure fantasy...faith will tell you that G-d made it happen, and the natural laws that we have codified were suspended....very much in the same vein that the Heavens and the Earth were originally created....you get those that will tell you it could not happen the way it is described in Genesis as cosmological and physics laws would be broken...light can't come from some other source etc etc.

The problem with the passage is not that it describes a miracle, it's that it describes both the sun and moon as moving relative to the earth when we know that in point of fact the earth moves relative to the sun. This reflects the common geocentric cosmology of the time.

Lurker

Perhaps the miracle involves those involved in the conflict and their relationship to time and not the sun itself . . . for them, the sun stood still while they continued their battle in an envelope of time itself.

Ignorance of "what," "why" and "how" never negates reality . . . physically of spiritually. It only proves that ignorance exists.

[MorningGlory]

You bring up a case in point with that passage from Joshua....human logic would tell you it is an impossibility for such a thing to happen, and that this portion of Scripture is pure fantasy...faith will tell you that G-d made it happen, and the natural laws that we have codified were suspended....very much in the same vein that the Heavens and the Earth were originally created....you get those that will tell you it could not happen the way it is described in Genesis as cosmological and physics laws would be broken...light can't come from some other source etc etc.

The problem with the passage is not that it describes a miracle, it's that it describes both the sun and moon as moving relative to the earth when we know that in point of fact the earth moves relative to the sun. This reflects the common geocentric cosmology of the time.

Lurker

Perhaps the miracle involves those involved in the conflict and their relationship to time and not the sun itself . . . for them, the sun stood still while they continued their battle in an envelope of time itself.

Ignorance of "what," "why" and "how" never negates reality . . . physically of spiritually. It only proves that ignorance exists.

I've never heard that interpretation before....very interesting, B.S.