Montana Marv Posted September 25, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 3,135 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 1,091 Days Won: 2 Joined: 11/03/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted September 25, 2012 Hi Montana, Danielzk, Montana I'll have a brief response to your last post later before I go back to work next week. Danielzk, you'll notice in the article link below various quotes from the works of Josephus that back up Matthew 24. You can bring up the works of Josephus by a Google search and see for yourself by referencing the different books and divisions that are listed. It is not hard. On both your charges that Preterism is ridiculous I leave this with you for now: http://www.preterist...schatology.html Please explain to me how you can view passages like Matthew 10 (esp. vs 23) as unrelated to Matthew 24 with all the similarities that talk of Jesus coming in their lifetime. Would you like to give it a try? Are you telling me that these two passages are talking about two separate comings/events? If so then I'll be interested to see how you go about defending this. How do you separate 'this generation' found in Matthew 23:36 from Matthew 24:34? How do you make 'this generation' into 'that generation'? How do you interpret Revelation 1:7 that says 'all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of Him'? Do you see this as applying to the nation of Israel or to all the peoples of the whole world? When the inspired writers of the NT say that God is coming quickly/shortly/soon how do turn this into an eternity, all in the name of literalism? Peter Matt 10:23 - You will not finish going through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes. This is an open ended question. You will not finish, before the Son of Man comes. The question is not that they will finish, then the Son of Man comes. Now compare with Matt 24:14 - And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations and then the end will come. The end will come after the gospel is preached to all nations. It is interesting that there are more nations or subnations being formed all the time now. So this verse cannot be completed until these "all nations" are done being formed. Now to Matt 23:36 and Matt 24:34. These are two seperate generations. Matt 23 does infer to "this/that generation" of the 1st century. But Matt 24:34 refers to a different generation. It is the generation who sees all these things happening. You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, Nation will rise up against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, there will be famines and earthquakes in various places, All these are the beginning of birth pains. It is the "this generation" who sees these things all happening which is the generation who is living at the time of the end. Rome was never conqured. It's government was assymulated into or formed into the Catholic church. In Christ Montana Marv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PGA Posted September 26, 2012 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 210 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 8 Days Won: 2 Joined: 10/12/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted September 26, 2012 Hi Montana, Matt 10:23 - You will not finish going through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes. This is an open ended question. You will not finish, before the Son of Man comes. The question is not that they will finish, then the Son of Man comes. -Montana 23 When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. Truly I tell you, you will not finish going through the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes. -NIV It reads clear to me - an open ended question?? What exactly do you mean? Who is Jesus talking to and in what context? Jesus is telling them that as they (the disciples) go through the towns preaching to the lost sheep of Israel they are going to be persecuted so go to another place when this happens. They are not going to finish going through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes again. He is going to come in judgment of this generation. Why are you trying to place this passage in another century? It is concerned with Israel during the times of the disciples. Now compare with Matt 24:14 - And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations and then the end will come. The end will come after the gospel is preached to all nations. It is interesting that there are more nations or subnations being formed all the time now. So this verse cannot be completed until these "all nations" are done being formed. -Montana Again you are reading into the text when you surmise that more nations will be formed so therefore it does not apply until all nations are done forming. Wow. Jesus came to the lost sheep of Israel. They were in the nations of the Roman Empire. The disciples/apostles went throughout the Roman Empire preaching the message. On numerous occasions we are told in Scripture that the gospel has gone out into all the world. Is that not clear? Colossians 1:5-6 New International Version (NIV) 5 the faith and love that spring from the hope stored up for you in heaven and about which you have already heard in the true message of the gospel 6 that has come to you. In the same way, the gospel is bearing fruit and growing throughout the whole world—just as it has been doing among you since the day you heard it and truly understood God’s grace. Colossians 1:23 New International Version (NIV) 23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant. Romans 10:18 New International Version (NIV) 18 But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did: “Their voice has gone out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world.” We see these prophecies of old being fulfilled in their time (time of the apostles). Acts 2:5 New International Version (NIV) 5 Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. These men heard the gospel preached to them and I'm sure that those who believed preached the message of salvation when they returned to the countries that they were living in. Now let's examine the contexts of Matthew 10 and 24 for comparisons. I'm going to underline thoughts that are common to both or of significance to the time element of Scripture and highlight in orange those phrases and words in passages that are identical or almost identical. Matthew 10:1-23 New International Version (NIV) Jesus Sends Out the Twelve 10 Jesus called his twelve disciples to him and gave them authority to drive out impure spirits and to heal every disease and sickness. 2 These are the names of the twelve apostles: first, Simon (who is called Peter) and his brother Andrew; James son of Zebedee, and his brother John; 3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus; 4 Simon the Zealot and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him. 5 These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: “Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. 6 Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel. 7 As you go, proclaim this message: ‘The kingdom of heaven has come near.’ 8 Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy,[a] drive out demons. Freely you have received; freely give. 9 “Do not get any gold or silver or copper to take with you in your belts— 10 no bag for the journey or extra shirt or sandals or a staff, for the worker is worth his keep. 11 Whatever town or village you enter, search there for some worthy person and stay at their house until you leave. 12 As you enter the home, give it your greeting. 13 If the home is deserving, let your peace rest on it; if it is not, let your peace return to you. 14 If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, leave that home or town and shake the dust off your feet. 15 Truly I tell you, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town. 16 “I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves. 17 Be on your guard; you will be handed over to the local councils and be flogged in the synagogues. 18 On my account you will be brought before governors and kings as witnesses to them and to the Gentiles. 19 But when they arrest you, do not worry about what to say or how to say it. At that time you will be given what to say, 20 for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you. 21 “Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. 22 You will be hated by everyone because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 23 When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. Truly I tell you, you will not finish going through the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes. Matthew 24:1-35 New International Version (NIV) The Destruction of the Temple and Signs of the End Times 24 Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2 “Do you see all these things?” he asked. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.” 3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?” 4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains. 9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. 15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’[a] spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath.21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again. 22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time. 26 “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather. 29 “Immediately after the distress of those days “‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’[b] 30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth[c] will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.[d]31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. 32 “Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it[e] is near, right at the door. 34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. These verses are pregnant with meaning and the meaning is found in the Scriptures. But the point for now is that just like in Matthew 24 the same themes, phrases and warnings are found in Matthew 10. These disciples are going to be persecuted, flogged, taken before councils and kings, betrayed, hated, put to death, but those who stand firm until the end will be saved and these disciples will not have finished going through all the towns of Israel before this happens and the Son of Man comes. In Matthew 24 Jesus is answering the questions His disciples asked concerning when all the stones of the temple will be cast down (when will all this happen). They also ask what will be the sign of His coming (in this judgment, I might add, for they understand that the casting down of the stones of the temple is a judgment) and the end of the age (of the Old Covenant in which they are in, I might also add). In answer to these questions He starts out...'Watch out that no one deceives YOU...' He goes on to tell them the signs of when this will happen and the signs of His coming and the end of the age. The gospel was preached as noted above to every nation under heaven, in the context of what they knew. My claim is that you are trying to remove the context from the 1st century into the 21st century. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PGA Posted September 26, 2012 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 210 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 8 Days Won: 2 Joined: 10/12/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted September 26, 2012 Now to Matt 23:36 and Matt 24:34. These are two seperate generations. Matt 23 does infer to "this/that generation" of the 1st century. But Matt 24:34 refers to a different generation. It is the generation who sees all these things happening. You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, Nation will rise up against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, there will be famines and earthquakes in various places, All these are the beginning of birth pains. It is the "this generation" who sees these things all happening which is the generation who is living at the time of the end. -Montana That 1st century people saw all these things happen. Wars, rumors of wars, nation/kingdom against nation/kingdom, famines (in Jerusalem for one), earthquakes and so on. This is documented not only by Josephus but by others. What do you understand the time of the end to be? Is it the end of the world? As for your claim that in Matthew 24:36 it refers to another generation I think you are out on a limb for a number of reasons. First of all, every other Scripture that has the phrase 'this generation' speaks of the current generation that Jesus was among during the 1st century. 'This generation' teachers this generation, not that generation. Matthew 23:36 New International Version (NIV) 36 Truly I tell you, all this will come on this generation. The whole theme of the chapter is pronouncement of judgment on the Pharisees and teachers of the law, and concerns that very generation, as you yourself have admitted. Matthew 11:16 New International Version (NIV) 16 “To what can I compare this generation? They are like children sitting in the marketplaces and calling out to others: Jesus is talking about the generation of John the Baptist. Matthew 12:39-45 New International Version (NIV) 39 He answered, “A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. 40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. 41 The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and now something greater than Jonah is here. 42 The Queen of the South will rise at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for she came from the ends of the earth to listen to Solomon’s wisdom, and now something greater than Solomon is here. 43 “When an impure spirit comes out of a person, it goes through arid places seeking rest and does not find it. 44 Then it says, ‘I will return to the house I left.’ When it arrives, it finds the house unoccupied, swept clean and put in order. 45 Then it goes and takes with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there. And the final condition of that person is worse than the first. That is how it will be with this wicked generation.” Again, clearly speaking of the 1st century. You will also notice that all these verses concern judgment upon the house of Israel - the Old Covenant Israel. Mark 8:38 New International Version (NIV) 38 If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of them when he comes in his Father’s glory with the holy angels.” Luke 11:50-51 New International Version (NIV) 50 Therefore this generation will be held responsible for the blood of all the prophets that has been shed since the beginning of the world, 51 from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, this generation will be held responsible for it all. Judgment, judgment, judgment upon this generation, just like in Matthew 24. Luke 17:25 New International Version (NIV) 25 But first he must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation. A second consideration is how long does the Bible define a generation to be? Hebrews 3:7-19 New International Version (NIV) Warning Against Unbelief 7 So, as the Holy Spirit says: “Today, if you hear his voice, 8 do not harden your hearts as you did in the rebellion, during the time of testing in the wilderness, 9 where your ancestors tested and tried me, though for forty years they saw what I did. 10 That is why I was angry with that generation; I said, ‘Their hearts are always going astray, and they have not known my ways.’ 11 So I declared on oath in my anger, ‘They shall never enter my rest.’ ”[a] 12 See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. 14 We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end. 15 As has just been said: “Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as you did in the rebellion.”[b] 16 Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17 And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies perished in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed? 19 So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief. That entire generation died in the desert during the time of Moses. Who is the Book of Hebrews addressing? It is addressing 1st century Jewish Christians who were in danger of turning back to Judaism. The author is showing them (and us, indirectly) why the New covenant is superior to the old in every way and warning them not to turn back. Now since Israel became a nation again in 1948 does that not exclude the current generation in Israel of being 'this generation'? Even if you start in 1967 during the capture of Jerusalem it still exceeds the forty years of a generation. I've noticed that when the 1948 prediction exceeded its time-span that 1967 then became the fade along with extending the biblical definition of a generation to 70 years, the 'normal' span of a generation in perhaps North America. My third concern is in comparing the context of 'this generation' and the theme of judgment, both in these different verses of the NT (especially Matthew 24) and throughout the OT. The theme of judgment so often concerns Israel because of the covenant that these people made with God. The apostle Paul preached the hope of Israel. The hope of Israel was the Messiah and the resurrection. They could not meet the righteousness of His laws without the Messiah. God had made this known to them. They were a stiff-necked people who were promised curses if they were disobedient. Now they had been instrumental in crucifying His Son. The blood of all the prophets and saints since the beginning of creation was upon them during this generation. The last consideration I want to mention is that the time from the crucifixion to the destruction of Jerusalem was approximately 40 years, the very thing that the author of Hebrews was concerned that that generation would not miss the rest that God promised. When Jesus was referring to 'this genaration' the genaration that existed from His earthly ministry until the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70 fits the bill. Rome was never conqured. It's government was assymulated into or formed into the Catholic church. -Montana The point is that during/in the time of this fourth kingdom the God of heaven would set up His eternal kingdom. Daniel is primarily concerned with prophecy concerning his people and Jesus refers to Daniel 9:24-27 in Matthew 24:15. Again, it concerns OT Israel. Daniel 2:44 New International Version (NIV) 44 “In the time of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it will itself endure forever. Daniel 7:17-27 New International Version (NIV) 17 ‘The four great beasts are four kings that will rise from the earth. 18 But the holy people of the Most High will receive the kingdom and will possess it forever—yes, for ever and ever.’ 19 “Then I wanted to know the meaning of the fourth beast, which was different from all the others and most terrifying, with its iron teeth and bronze claws—the beast that crushed and devoured its victims and trampled underfoot whatever was left. 20 I also wanted to know about the ten horns on its head and about the other horn that came up, before which three of them fell—the horn that looked more imposing than the others and that had eyes and a mouth that spoke boastfully. 21 As I watched, this horn was waging war against the holy people and defeating them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came and pronounced judgment in favor of the holy people of the Most High, and the time came when they possessed the kingdom. 23 “He gave me this explanation: ‘The fourth beast is a fourth kingdom that will appear on earth. It will be different from all the other kingdoms and will devour the whole earth, trampling it down and crushing it. 24 The ten horns are ten kings who will come from this kingdom. After them another king will arise, different from the earlier ones; he will subdue three kings. 25 He will speak against the Most High and oppress his holy people and try to change the set times and the laws. The holy people will be delivered into his hands for a time, times and half a time.[a] 26 “‘But the court will sit, and his power will be taken away and completely destroyed forever. 27 Then the sovereignty, power and greatness of all the kingdoms under heaven will be handed over to the holy people of the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will worship and obey him.’ Who are those kings? Daniel and Revelation have many comparisons (and contrasts) and I believe Revelation reveals many things concealed in Daniel. The question is when was Revelation written because when it was written will also reveal matters concerning the kingdom and judgment. There are so many questions involved that it would take months to explore, I'm sure. What temple is referred to in Revelation 11. Who is the 'great city'? Who is the woman? Who is the beast? What of the 2 1/2 years spoken of both in daniel and Revelation? What about the 2 1/2 years spoken of in Matthew 24? There is so much to digest. What is figurative and what is literal? What do the time passages signify? How does the book tie in with other Scripture, like Matthew 24? Are the same scrolls that Daniel was told to seal up to the end times the ones that Jesus opens? Is the tribulation spoken of by Daniel (ch. 12) the same time of tribulation spoken of in the Book of Revelation? Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Montana Marv Posted September 26, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 3,135 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 1,091 Days Won: 2 Joined: 11/03/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted September 26, 2012 (edited) 2 Thes 2:1-4 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him, we ask you brothers, do not become uneasily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come. Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshipped, so the he sets himself up in God's temple proclaiming himself to be God. v.9,10a - The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, sighn and wonders, and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. Peter, you have missed two very important points; 1. Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. and 2; our being gathered to Him. So I am not alarmed or unsettled by some false report that teaches the Day of the Lord has already come. You need to, beyond a shadow of a doubt, reveal who the lawless one was/is, and what wonders and signs and counterfeit miricales he performed. Be careful for Titus was only a general under Nero, and Nero never set is feet in Israel. And don't try to reveal that Satan set himself up in the Disciples Hearts/Temple. In Christ Montana Marv Edited September 26, 2012 by Montana Marv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ENOCH2010 Posted September 26, 2012 Group: Senior Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 907 Content Per Day: 0.20 Reputation: 382 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/03/2011 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/07/1866 Share Posted September 26, 2012 PGA I had never heard of the preterist view of scripture until a couple years ago,I guess I have led a sheltered life. May I ask what is your view of the second comming, is the Lord comming back bodily again, or is everything in the past? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PGA Posted September 27, 2012 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 210 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 8 Days Won: 2 Joined: 10/12/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted September 27, 2012 2 Thes 2:1-4 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him, we ask you brothers, do not become uneasily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come. Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshipped, so the he sets himself up in God's temple proclaiming himself to be God. v.9,10a - The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, sighn and wonders, and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. Peter, you have missed two very important points; 1. Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. and 2; our being gathered to Him. So I am not alarmed or unsettled by some false report that teaches the Day of the Lord has already come. You need to, beyond a shadow of a doubt, reveal who the lawless one was/is, and what wonders and signs and counterfeit miricales he performed. Be careful for Titus was only a general under Nero, and Nero never set is feet in Israel. And don't try to reveal that Satan set himself up in the Disciples Hearts/Temple. In Christ Montana Marv Hi Montana, I'm in the process of wrapping up a month of holidays so my time is going to be very limited for awhile. The topic in this post is huge so I'm going to take a little time in responding. Gary Demar, in his book Last Days Madness, Obsession of the Modern Church, p. 275, quoting James Macknight's comments: "In the prophetic writings of the Jews (2 Sam. 22:10, 12; Ps. 65:2-5; Isa. 19:1) great exertions of the Divine power, whether for the salvation or destruction of nations, are called the coming, the appearance, or the presence of God. Hence it was natural for the apostles, who were Jews, to call any signal and evident interposition of Christ, as Governor of the world, for the accomplishment of His purposes, His coming and His day. Accordingly, those exertions of His power and providence, whereby He destroyed Jerusalem and the temple, abrogated the Mosaic institutions, and established the gospel, are called by the apostles His coming and day; not only in allusion to the ancient prophetic language, but because Christ Himself, in His prophecy concerning these events recorded in Matt. 24, has termed them the coming of the Son of Man, in allusion to the...prophecy of Daniel, of which His own prophecy is an explication; Dan. 7:13..." Gary Demar goes on to further say (p. 276): In similar fashion, because of Israel's rejection of the Messiah and the persecution of His church, Christ's bride, God would make His presence known to Israel in the form of judgment. God rejected His once-covenanted people and their temple of stone because of the nations rejection of the promised Son of Man (Matt. 23:38; 24:1). Like Ezekiel (Ezek. 8), Jesus inspected the temple, found it filled with abominations (Matt. 21:12-13), and left it desolate (23:38). He returned in A.D. 70 to inspect the temple for the final time and found it full of abominations. His presence now abides with a new people of God constructed as a "spiritual house," the true temple of God (1 Peter 2:4-10; cf. 2 Cor. 6:14-18). Montana, you keep trying to read into these prophecies a 21th century fulfillment but I feel you are missing by doing this the true meaning that God has given. PS. Any comments on the questions I asked you? I think it is important that this is a two way exchange although I'm getting used to people ignoring my questions. I don't mind answering your questions to the best of my understanding but, IMO, your way of looking at Scripture also needs a lot of explaining that I don't feel is exegetical without reading into the Author's word something that He does not say, nor does Scripture support when you start to look under the surface. If you put yourself in the position of a Jewish Christian believer, or even a Jew during the 1st century I think that you would come away with a totally different perspective, and they did. Some of them felt the day of the Lord had already come (Which I have explained in a previous post and I can't remember if anyone took it further), and Paul had to correct them. Now if they felt the day had already occurred then the coming they saw is different than the coming you see. You immediately are conditioned to see a physical presence of the Lord. How does God come in every OT coming? He comes in judgment and He comes invisibly. He uses armies and nations to bring judgment. When the curtain of the temple was torn in two it was not only a sign of Jesus making accessible again the way to God but also significant in that God was departing from that temple, never again to return. You totally ignore the time passages, the tense used and primary audience that are laced throughout the NT, including in the very book of Thessalonian we are discussing. Back when I get some time. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PGA Posted September 27, 2012 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 210 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 8 Days Won: 2 Joined: 10/12/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted September 27, 2012 PGA I had never heard of the preterist view of scripture until a couple years ago,I guess I have led a sheltered life. May I ask what is your view of the second comming, is the Lord comming back bodily again, or is everything in the past? Hi Enoch, I was once in the Dispensational pre-trib, pre-millenial camp. I tend to favor a full Preterist view but I'm still open to a partial Preterist view of Scripture. I believe every passage of Israel of old has been fulfilled in the 1st century. I believe that Scripture supports this and I believe that history supports this. That would mean that we now live in the kingdom age, the eternal kingdom, and those on earth worship the King spiritually, just like they did in the 1st century church on earth. But Paul said our citizenship is in heaven. Whether there is another coming of Christ (Revelation 20-22) I don't currently believe so, and so far I have not seen the biblical evidence to support this, but I do believe that when we die we still are either in the presence of the Lord or separated from His presence, depending on whether by God's mercy Christ Jesus is our Lord or not. No, I do not believe the Lord is coming back bodily again. He came bodily when He came to Israel for it took a man, the Second Adam, to reconcile man again to God with a new and better covenant and fulfillment of the first. Just like you, I'm sure, and just like the 1st century church did I believe that I am working out my salvation with fear and trembling for I believe God is working in me, as He did in them. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Montana Marv Posted September 27, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 3,135 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 1,091 Days Won: 2 Joined: 11/03/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted September 27, 2012 (edited) Isa 11:6 - 9 -- the wolf will live with the lamb, the leopard will lie down with the goat, the calf and the lion and the yearling together and a little child will lead them. The cow will feed with the bear, their young will lie down together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox, The infant will play near the hole of the cobra, and the young child put his hand into the vipors nest. They will neither harm nor destroy on all my holy mountain, for the earth will be full of the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea. Wow, the earth will be full of the knowledge of the Lord. In Christ Montana Marv Edited September 27, 2012 by Montana Marv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ENOCH2010 Posted September 27, 2012 Group: Senior Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 907 Content Per Day: 0.20 Reputation: 382 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/03/2011 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/07/1866 Share Posted September 27, 2012 PGA I had never heard of the preterist view of scripture until a couple years ago,I guess I have led a sheltered life. May I ask what is your view of the second comming, is the Lord comming back bodily again, or is everything in the past? Hi Enoch, I was once in the Dispensational pre-trib, pre-millenial camp. I tend to favor a full Preterist view but I'm still open to a partial Preterist view of Scripture. I believe every passage of Israel of old has been fulfilled in the 1st century. I believe that Scripture supports this and I believe that history supports this. That would mean that we now live in the kingdom age, the eternal kingdom, and those on earth worship the King spiritually, just like they did in the 1st century church on earth. But Paul said our citizenship is in heaven. Whether there is another coming of Christ (Revelation 20-22) I don't currently believe so, and so far I have not seen the biblical evidence to support this, but I do believe that when we die we still are either in the presence of the Lord or separated from His presence, depending on whether by God's mercy Christ Jesus is our Lord or not. No, I do not believe the Lord is coming back bodily again. He came bodily when He came to Israel for it took a man, the Second Adam, to reconcile man again to God with a new and better covenant and fulfillment of the first. Just like you, I'm sure, and just like the 1st century church did I believe that I am working out my salvation with fear and trembling for I believe God is working in me, as He did in them. Peter Thanks for the answer PGA. I can see that the partial preterist view may have some merit,as in with the destruction of the temple. A lot of the Revelation sounds as if it is a repeat of history,with a third temple being built,but some of the prophecy hasn't been fulfilled yet.The 1000 year reign for example, I see no time in history or at present that describes the lifestyle on Earth during the 1000 year reign of Christ. With that fact alone I have to dismiss the preterist view as being not Biblical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PGA Posted September 28, 2012 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 210 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 8 Days Won: 2 Joined: 10/12/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted September 28, 2012 Hi Danielzk, It has been nearly twice the one thousand year time span of 1000 year time span that Jesus spoke of that would happen in the Kingdom Age and then satan would be loosed for a short time ..absolutely none of the things that scripture says will happen during the 1000 year reign has happened yet,, as one of those things is that human life span will once again be like it was in the book of Genesis where human life was nearly 1000 years long,, ,,scripture tells us that the Last Human generation that exists during the 1000 years will return to the former 1000 year lifespan as that generation will be the very LAST HUMAN generation , after that ,there will NOT BE any more humans born at all ever again as at that time everyone that is in the Kingdom will have a eternal incorruptible, physical body just like the physiacl body that Jesus had when he rose from the grave ,,, ,,,at that point in time there will never be anymore flesh & blood people at all, as the only people that will live on earth will be the LORD Gods family with their eternal incorruptible physical bodies , -Danielzk Where are these Scriptures you are talking about? You haven't even provided one in this post. I don't see any scriptural quotes at all. There is nothing for me to grab onto but that what you are saying is true. In Heaven there are no physical bodies , only spirit which is why scripture tells us that when Jesus gives the command ,, that all the bodies in the graves of deceased born again Christians who have died as born again believers , their physical bodies will raise up from the grave and be united once again with the spirit and return to earth when Jesus returns to earth There are many many scriptures that are diametrically opposed to the preterist view and only a few have been shown here , but since you do not understand what the scripture means it will take weeks , and likely months or years to get you to see it as you are deceived by those who have twisted scripture into something that is false -Danielzk Give me the scriptural verses you are referring to please. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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