Absolute Morality?

[enoob57]

My atheist friend and I were watching a public broadcasting network program on religion in public life. Several times during the panel discussion, someone would say that there would be no morality if Christian principles were not taught to children. They also insisted that there are some moral absolutes. My friend asked me what morals are taught in the Christian Bible that aren't taught in any other society and what exactly were moral absolutes. When I gave her my answers (don't kill, don't lie, don't steal, treat others as you would like to be treated, etc) she came up with good responses using some biblical examples of people who killed, lied, stole, participated in incest, etc. After talking with her, I'm inclined to agree with her - there are no moral absolutes and morality can be taught without the Bible. What do you think?

The reason you are drawn to believe this is that it rids you of the possibility of God's rule over you. For you cannot have God and not have God's will be done! The will of God is the moral absolutes it is the substance of continuance where all else would not continue! Here are examples: I love the flavors God has put into foods but if all I do is intake food to enjoy the flavors what would this result in gluttony? destruction or non-continuance. Homosexuality if all practiced it what would be the resulting perversion no offspring. self evident a non-continuance. Drug use all the time is witchcraft? Health deteriorates and non-continuance. That which is done so that potentials deteriorate is in direction of non-continuance this is the law of absolute morality. We are seeing this occur in our country and as the morals decline the problems will exceed our ability to continue. It is self evident in History, it is self evident in life, it is self evident in creation. All laws of nature that are subverted use energy to subvert the natural law and those supplies to do this are not endless! So as we use them up in much waste we are practicing non-continuance. Love Steven

[Guest man]

The reason you are drawn to believe this is that it rids you of the possibility of God's rule over you. For you cannot have God and not have God's will be done! The will of God is the moral absolutes it is the substance of continuance where all else would not continue! Here are examples: I love the flavors God has put into foods but if all I do is intake food to enjoy the flavors what would this result in gluttony? destruction or non-continuance. Homosexuality if all practiced it what would be the resulting perversion no offspring. self evident a non-continuance. Drug use all the time is witchcraft? Health deteriorates and non-continuance. That which is done so that potentials deteriorate is in direction of non-continuance this is the law of absolute morality. We are seeing this occur in our country and as the morals decline the problems will exceed our ability to continue. It is self evident in History, it is self evident in life, it is self evident in creation. All laws of nature that are subverted use energy to subvert the natural law and those supplies to do this are not endless! So as we use them up in much waste we are practicing non-continuance. Love Steven

Wow!

[Zaphenath]

When I gave her my answers (don't kill, don't lie, don't steal, treat others as you would like to be treated, etc)

The commands not to murder, lie, or steal are moral absolutes. So you were correct here. You could add things like honor God, do not commit adultery, etc. All the moral principles are summed up in the one command that we should love our neighbor as ourself (and Jesus gave us his death on the cross as the new example of what this means: John 13:34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another.)

she came up with good responses using some biblical examples of people who killed, lied, stole, participated in incest, etc. After talking with her, I'm inclined to agree with her

The fact that the Bible records people murdering or lying or committing adultery does not mean that God approves of those things. The Bible records lots of events, but it doesn't approve of those events.

So your friend would have to do more than show an instance in which the Bible records a murder.

there are no moral absolutes

Ask your friend (and yourself) if it is every right to torture babies for fun. Is that ever acceptable? What about what Hitler did to the Jews, was that acceptable or would that ever be acceptable? If so, under what conditions?

morality can be taught without the Bible.

This is true, because all men have some moral knowledge, being made in the image of God. But this does not mean that we do not need God as the grounds of morality. This is a confusion between *knowing* moral principles and *the grounds* of moral principles. We may know moral principles without knowing the Bible, but if God does not exist then there are no grounds for objective morality.

I want to add "murder" but she already pointed out to me that killing is not always bad in the Bible.

The problem is in your friend's (and your) definition of "murder." Murder is not simply the taking of a life. It is the *unjust* taking of a life. For example, our government often sentences people to death (capital punishment). But that doesn't mean our government is guilty of murder. To kill someone is to take their life. This may be done justly or unjustly. If it is done unjustly, it is murder.

I'll add this illustration. Consider stealing. Stealing is not defined as taking something or acquiring a thing. Stealing is defined as taking something unjustly (something that does not belong to you and for which you did not go through the proper process to acquire it). I can acquire something that doesn't belong to me through just means and unjust means. A just means of acquiring a TV that you does not belong to you from an electronics store is to pay the people who own the electronics store. That isn't stealing, because you acquired the object that did not belong to you in the proper way. But if you were to take a TV out of someone's living room against their will, that would be stealing because you acquired the object that did not belong to you in an improper way. Likewise, murder is not simply taking a persons life or killing someone. Murder is doing that in a manner that isn't justified.

I know she is going to ask me what chapter and verse support these statements.

Deuteronomy 5:7, 16-21

Edited June 13, 2010 by Zaphenath

[time-keeper]

I would suppose it all boils down to how much you want to stand by God. How much you trust him, and his word. If so, then stay faithfull to him, and don't doubt. He'll tell you the answers you need, and guide your friend too.

I think that the morals that are in the bible are sooo good, that it's visible in the everyday life of those who don't belive, as well as us.

And i agree with everyone, that even if people in the bible did it, doesn't make it right, or approved.

Best,

Lilly

[e lansing]

My atheist friend and I were watching a public broadcasting network program on religion in public life. Several times during the panel discussion, someone would say that there would be no morality if Christian principles were not taught to children. They also insisted that there are some moral absolutes. My friend asked me what morals are taught in the Christian Bible that aren't taught in any other society and what exactly were moral absolutes. When I gave her my answers (don't kill, don't lie, don't steal, treat others as you would like to be treated, etc) she came up with good responses using some biblical examples of people who killed, lied, stole, participated in incest, etc. After talking with her, I'm inclined to agree with her - there are no moral absolutes and morality can be taught without the Bible. What do you think?

God is the absolute moral! All truth and true morality come from Him and are based upon Him. Every person has morals, all are not Gods morals, but all have some type of moral. All believe that there morals are right and true and live by them absolutly, even the atheist. To me the real issue is not if there are moral absolutes, but why does your friend believe what she believe? Is what she believes based on fact or opinion? For the atheist, its not that they do not know that there is a God, they do, they just reject this knowlegde. Romans 1:18 spells this out quite well.

e

[oldzimm]

This is a good discussion, I agree with other posters that some laws are not absolute as an example murder, pending on the circumstance. Killing in war or in self defense is not murder, but to kill in cold blood is murder.

In the sermon I heard Sunday we were taught that different Churches put more emphasis on certain issues then others would, but there are seven things that are absolute no matter what Church you go too and they can be found in the following verses.

Ephesians 4:4-6

4 There is one body and one spirit, just as you were called to one hope that belongs to your call, 5 one lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all.

These seven things are absolute no matter how you look at anything else.

1. one body

2. one spirit

3. one hope

4. one Lord

5. one faith

6. one baptism

7. one God and he IS father of us all.

[Isaiah 6:8]

Another thing I have noticed is this.

Just because the Bible reports things does in no way mean it endorses it. I have seen this type of argument before. Remember just because a newspaper reports a rape, a murder, a theft, does not mean it endorses these actions.

Humans do not always follow Gods law. Matter of fact we all have sinned, and fallen short of the glory of God.

So yes moral absolutes do exist, but us humans are free to ignore them.

And remember, give your testimony as that is something they can not argue with you about.

[Guest]

People who didn't practise good morality in the Bible didn't have the blessing of God though.

I DID tell her this but she reminded me that Abraham had God's blessings and he almost killed his child and in another instance he lied saying that his wife was his sister. She pointed out to me that Abraham was a would-be murderer and a liar.

You brought up good points about morality in other cultures and nations which brings me back to my original question - Are there absolute morals and what are they? To me, Abraham was justified in his actions because he was showing his faith in God but my friend rightfully states that if his actions were justifiable for whatever reason then the morals must not be absolute.

Pee-Yew!

But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. Isaiah 64:6

Sin Stinks!

But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death. Proverbs 8:36

Really Stinks!

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Romans 3:23

And Sin Kills Too!

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 6:23

And Only Way To Life For Sinners

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. John 14:6

Is Through The Priceless Blood Of Jesus The Christ

And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, Revelation 1:5

And That Choice Is Left In The Hands Of The Sinner

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

To Choose

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. John 3:36

[nebula]

My friend asked me what morals are taught in the Christian Bible that aren't taught in any other society and what exactly were moral absolutes.

The problem with your discussion with her is the underlying question behind the surface question.

You see, we live in a society that believes morality is based on what *I* believe is right and wrong.

Maybe you can challenge her back with something like, "Why do you believe cold-blooded murder is wrong?" And, "Would you ever agree that a society that believes cold-blooded murder is OK is right and free to believe this?"

When I gave her my answers (don't kill, don't lie, don't steal, treat others as you would like to be treated, etc) she came up with good responses using some biblical examples of people who killed, lied, stole, participated in incest, etc. After talking with her, I'm inclined to agree with her - there are no moral absolutes and morality can be taught without the Bible. What do you think?

Who or what should dictate morality? The whims of society?

I DID tell her this but she reminded me that Abraham had God's blessings and he almost killed his child and in another instance he lied saying that his wife was his sister. She pointed out to me that Abraham was a would-be murderer and a liar.

Abraham also got into trouble for lying.

As for almost killing his son, God was testing Abraham's faith. His son was never supposed to be killed. I'm pretty sure she won't understand this, but you need to keep the account in context.

But perhaps you should ask her if she knows the consequences the people in the Bible suffered for murdering, lying, stealing, etc.?

[Guest shiloh357]

Thank you for replying. I'm working on a list for my friend. So far I have as my list for absolute morality:

1 The ability to know right from wrong

2. Rape is always wrong

Absolute morality is a worldview not a list of dos and don'ts. Absolute morality is the view that right and wrong do exist.

I want to add "murder" but she already pointed out to me that killing is not always bad in the Bible.

Murder is always bad, but not all killing is murder. Murder is the act of taking an innocent human life. Killing someone in self-defense or in war is not prohibited by the Bible. Killing someone in the process of raping them or robbing them IS murder.

I know she is going to ask me what chapter and verse support these statements. I'm going to my Bible to find them. Anyone want to help me out? It's hard for me to debate religion with her. I think she actually knows more Bible verses than I do and I have a hard time witnessing to her. I'm a good person and always try to be a good Christian. She is a good person, too - one of the best but she is not a Christian. I worry about her and want to help her but I can't always answer her questions.

Herein in is the problem. She is operating from a logical fallacy that she would never live up to. You are not the one that has anything to prove. As I indicated before, you need have to deal with the issue on a practical level. Anyone can quote verses from the Bible out of context, and make the Bible appear to say anything they want it to. Would she be okay with being raped?? Would she be okay with someone stealing her stuff, or stealing her identity?? Would she be okay with someone killing one of her loved ones in cold blood?

Most people who claim there is no absolute morality have a selective approach. There is no "absolute" morality when they are trying to justify their actions, but when they are on the receiving end of something someone does to hurt them, suddenly they demand justice.

Justice is based on absolute morality. If there is no absolute morality, then we do not have the right to establish laws, much less inforce them and we would have no moral basis for seeking justice for the victims of those who impose their immorality on others.