Baptismal regeneration vs baptismal confession

[turtletwo]

Amen, FresnoJoe! Thanks so much for sharing all these excellent verses. God's holy scriptures themselves make a compelling case that Jesus alone saves. Especially Matthew 3:11, John 14:6 and John 1:33 jump off the computer screen at me.

[Guest]

Amen, FresnoJoe! Thanks so much for sharing all these excellent verses. God's holy scriptures themselves make a compelling case that Jesus alone saves. Especially Matthew 3:11, John 14:6 and John 1:33 jump off the computer screen at me.

The Wolf Hunts

And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. 1 John 3:23

Stand Fast Beloved

For now we live, if ye stand fast in the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 3:8

And Be Blessed Beloved Daughter Of The KING

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. Romans 10:13

Love, Your Brother Joe

[turtletwo]

When I had my water baptism, I was quite young. And it was because I saw it in the Bible and wanted to obey anything God may want me to do. But I keep it in its rightful perspective. Jesus, not water baptism... saved my soul. My pastor from years ago (now Home with Jesus) never put a huge emphasis on water baptism. Nor did he say it was a way to become a member of our local church.

I have heard water baptism explained as an "outward show of an inward change" that already has occured through conversion. I have also heard some people say that it is a "symbolic identification with what Christ did for us." As we are immersed under the water, we are identifying with His death and burial for us And rising out of the water symbolizes His Resurrection.

We are also showing WE have died to our old pre-salvation ways and are coming up out of the water to signify our new life in Christ, (which of course occured at the point of being born again...when our salvation actually took place.)

There can be a gap in when you are saved and when you are water baptized, for various reasons. In my own case, I was young and wanted to understand a bit more about it before I just went ahead and did it. That way it would be more meaningful.

Sometimes people truly can't be immersed in water, before they die. For example, my dad is way too far into his cancer for that. If he would yield his heart to Christ and become saved, he is unable to have a water baptism due to his extreme weakness. But that would not prevent him from Heaven.

.......and it still does not change

Mark 16:16 - He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

Gal 3:27 - For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

Acts 2:37-38 - Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brethren, what shall we do?"

Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

I saw you wrote several times "I have heard." The question rather is what does the bible say? How can obeying a command of Christ take away from God's grace? Let's say you have been in the desert for 10 days with no food or water. You're about to die. Amazingly you come across a plate of food and water. You eat and drink and it allows you to live. Someone asks you about it and you say "I ate the food that was freely given but eating it had nothing to do with me being saved."

Eph 2:8 - "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; " - This statement in no way unties you from what God has commanded you to do. All it is saying is that you weren't the one that thought of salvation or made it possible for men to be saved. You still have to obey God to be saved. The bible does not contradict itself. Ask yourself how does Mark 16:16 (salvation through belief and baptism) tie with Eph 2:8 (salvation through faith and grace).

There was a time that I might take this as a personal attack on me. Getting all emotional over it. Maybe even crying (my dad is dying of cancer and that can make one sensitive) or retaliating to your criticisms of my Grace alone posts in an angry way. However, the "peace of God that passeth all understanding" is flooding me now. And He tells us in scripture to turn the other cheek. So I guess you may slap me over the computer screen , if you so desire.

No hard feelings. But I think you already sort of did that in some remarks that were unfounded. I feel the need to clarify your misunderstanding of my actual meaning. I have studied the subject of water baptism straight from the Bible. You know, by picking up the Bible physically and reading the verses for myself.

The important thing I must clarify for other readers here is that I NEVER take what anyone says at face value blindly. I do as the Bereans and compare it to the scriptures. I know just how easily people pull verses out of context, coming up with their own man made ideas. This is the trademark of every cult out there. So in kindness I say that you should not accuse a total stranger (me) of being so gullible. You don't know me.

The reason I said "I have heard" is that I did not wish to take credit for these particular ways of explaining water baptism. I was merely sharing what pastors and fellow Christians have said to me. And what is wrong with that? Is that not one reason for a forum? But the bottom line is I DO look to the scriptures alone before I make a decision on anything I believe. And the Holy spirit faithfully guides me into all truth. So just wanted to set the record straight for readers. This is the way I live and would lovingly advice all my brothers and sisters out there to, also. I'm sure many do.

[Botz]

Come on everybody - Just DO It !!!

Um...do what???

Buy some Nikes lol.

Maybe get baptized?

.......... .........

[UncleAbee]

turtletwo wrote - "There was a time that I might take this as a personal attack on me. Getting all emotional over it. Maybe even crying (my dad is dying of cancer and that can make one sensitive) or retaliating to your criticisms of my Grace alone posts in an angry way. However, the "peace of God that passeth all understanding" is flooding me now. And He tells us in scripture to turn the other cheek. So I guess you may slap me over the computer screen , if you so desire.

No hard feelings. But I think you already sort of did that in some remarks that were unfounded. I feel the need to clarify your misunderstanding of my actual meaning. I have studied the subject of water baptism straight from the Bible. You know, by picking up the Bible physically and reading the verses for myself.

The important thing I must clarify for other readers here is that I NEVER take what anyone says at face value blindly. I do as the Bereans and compare it to the scriptures. I know just how easily people pull verses out of context, coming up with their own man made ideas. This is the trademark of every cult out there. So in kindness I say that you should not accuse a total stranger (me) of being so gullible. You don't know me.

The reason I said "I have heard" is that I did not wish to take credit for these particular ways of explaining water baptism. I was merely sharing what pastors and fellow Christians have said to me. And what is wrong with that? Is that not one reason for a forum? But the bottom line is I DO look to the scriptures alone before I make a decision on anything I believe. And the Holy spirit faithfully guides me into all truth. So just wanted to set the record straight for readers. This is the way I live and would lovingly advice all my brothers and sisters out there to, also. I'm sure many do."

Don't take it personally. I don't. I love good debate. I do realize that at some point the debate becomes pointless. My point is people can say anything. There's nothing wrong with asking other Christians about things. What does the bible say is the more important question. Make sure what they say lines up with scripture. I'm happy that you study. I'm not attacking you..or the words you saw as read the bible....rather I am attacking your scriptural reasoning. This makes many upset. I don't see how a person can look at Mark 16:16 and Eph 2:8 and then reason that baptism has nothing to do with salvation. Baptism did not bring about salvation. Christ did that. That's all Eph 2:8 is saying. No work that we do can achieve or equal what Christ did on the cross. Receiving this salvation is still conditioned on your response. Baptism is how you receive the salvation that Christ brought. That's the way I reason what the bible says.

I am sorry about your dad. My mother died back in 1999 of cancer. My prayers are with you.

Edited July 21, 2010 by UncleAbee

[Guest shiloh357]

and it still does not change

Mark 16:16 - He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

Gal 3:27 - For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

Acts 2:37-38 - Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brethren, what shall we do?"

Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

The danger here is to assume that a formula is being established. None of these verses occur in a doctrinal context.

I saw you wrote several times "I have heard." The question rather is what does the bible say? How can obeying a command of Christ take away from God's grace? Let's say you have been in the desert for 10 days with no food or water. You're about to die. Amazingly you come across a plate of food and water. You eat and drink and it allows you to live. Someone asks you about it and you say "I ate the food that was freely given but eating it had nothing to do with me being saved."

That is not an accurate analogy. The accurate analogy would be that "I had nothing to do with providing the food. The food was provided freely and I was allowed to freely receive it."

How can obeying a command of Christ take away from God's grace?

Obedience does not detract from grace at all. However, making any kind of work a precondition for salvation DOES take away from God's grace.

Eph 2:8 - "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; " - This statement in no way unties you from what God has commanded you to do. All it is saying is that you weren't the one that thought of salvation or made it possible for men to be saved. You still have to obey God to be saved. The bible does not contradict itself. Ask yourself how does Mark 16:16 (salvation through belief and baptism) tie with Eph 2:8 (salvation through faith and grace).

Jesus did not teach salvation by belief and baptism. Baptism is fruit of faith. We are baptized because we are saved. Baptism has no salvific power whatsoever.

[Fraught]

Come on everybody - Just DO It !!!

Um...do what???

Get Baptized !!!

[biblos]

From time to time, the question "Do I have to be baptized to be saved" comes up. So then just what does baptism have to do with our salvation?

Some groups (notably Roman Catholicism and some parts of the Church of Christ) believe that baptism is essential to salvation: i.e. no baptism, no salvation.

At the other end of the spectrum is the Salvation Army which doesn't practice baptism at all.

Most Christian theology seems to lie somewhere in the middle.

Entire denominations have sprung up over HOW and WHEN baptism should be carried out. Full immersion, sprinkling, pouring; infant baptism, adult baptism, believer's baptism.

So then where is the truth?

Mark 16:16 clearly states: "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

Some will immediately cite the example of the condemned thief on the cross as a proof that baptism is irrelevant. My answer to that is that there are exceptions, (Imminent death. Lack of water availability, health reasons.)

Others will say: Well if I have to baptized to be saved, isn't that a form of works? I would say that faith without works is dead.

You see, baptism doesn't save you, IT SHOWS (confesses) that you are saved.

Romans 6 is the perfect primer on the 'why' of baptism. It explains the correlation of baptism to Christ's death for us.

So then, I personally believe in baptismal confession. It's a public way of saying "I believe in Jesus Christ and the efficacy of His death and the fact of His resurrection."

I believe the better example to cite would be Cornelius in Acts 10, He received the Holy Spirit with those around him BEFORE being Baptized. as a gentile he was outside the Covenant with Israel, also

I'd point out that mark 16 the entire emplasis is faith, he who does not believe is condemn'd, it never says he who is not baptized in in that boat. the entire emphasis is faith alone. then there is the final kicker.

IF BAPTISM IS NECESSARY FOR SALVATION WHY WOULD THE HOLY SPIRIT OMIT IT AS A REQUIREMENT WHEN A GENTILE ASKS WHAT MUST I DO TO BE SAVED? The anwser is found in acts 16.

Its also by the way, the Only Time that a Gentile asks what he must do for Salvation by the way.

Edited July 28, 2010 by biblos

[UncleAbee]

From time to time, the question "Do I have to be baptized to be saved" comes up. So then just what does baptism have to do with our salvation?

Some groups (notably Roman Catholicism and some parts of the Church of Christ) believe that baptism is essential to salvation: i.e. no baptism, no salvation.

At the other end of the spectrum is the Salvation Army which doesn't practice baptism at all.

Most Christian theology seems to lie somewhere in the middle.

Entire denominations have sprung up over HOW and WHEN baptism should be carried out. Full immersion, sprinkling, pouring; infant baptism, adult baptism, believer's baptism.

So then where is the truth?

Mark 16:16 clearly states: "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

Some will immediately cite the example of the condemned thief on the cross as a proof that baptism is irrelevant. My answer to that is that there are exceptions, (Imminent death. Lack of water availability, health reasons.)

Others will say: Well if I have to baptized to be saved, isn't that a form of works? I would say that faith without works is dead.

You see, baptism doesn't save you, IT SHOWS (confesses) that you are saved.

Romans 6 is the perfect primer on the 'why' of baptism. It explains the correlation of baptism to Christ's death for us.

So then, I personally believe in baptismal confession. It's a public way of saying "I believe in Jesus Christ and the efficacy of His death and the fact of His resurrection."

I believe the better example to cite would be Cornelius in Acts 10, He received the Holy Spirit with those around him BEFORE being Baptized. as a gentile he was outside the Covenant with Israel, also

I'd point out that mark 16 the entire emplasis is faith, he who does not believe is condemn'd, it never says he who is not baptized in in that boat. the entire emphasis is faith alone. then there is the final kicker.

IF BAPTISM IS NECESSARY FOR SALVATION WHY WOULD THE HOLY SPIRIT OMIT IT AS A REQUIREMENT WHEN A GENTILE ASKS WHAT MUST I DO TO BE SAVED? The anwser is found in acts 16.

Its also by the way, the Only Time that a Gentile asks what he must do for Salvation by the way.

I picked some statements from the above post to answer.

"Entire denominations have sprung up over HOW and WHEN baptism should be carried out. Full immersion, sprinkling, pouring; infant baptism, adult baptism, believer's baptism. So then where is the truth?"

The truth is in the bible. All these "denominations" and you can't find one of them in the bible where the truth is. That should make you stop and think.

"You see, baptism doesn't save you, IT SHOWS (confesses) that you are saved."

Where can this doctrine be found in the bible? Where does the bible say that baptism is a "sign" or a "show" of anything? 1 Peter 3:21 says - "Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you......."

"I'd point out that mark 16 the entire emplasis is faith, he who does not believe is condemn'd, it never says he who is not baptized in in that boat. the entire emphasis is faith alone."

Then why does Mark 16:16 mention baptism at all? It mentions belief and baptism and then it says "shall" be saved not "has" been saved. If you don't believe you won't get baptized. If I said "All who eat and digest will live. All who do not eat will die." Then, I turn around and tell you digesting has nothing to do with living because it is not mentioned in the 2nd part of the statement. Would that make any sense. That's what you are saying. The 2nd part of the verse does not cancel any of the 1st part. the 1st part says "He who believes and is baptized shall be saved....." This links belief and baptism forever to salvation. Acts 3:19 says - "Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away,...." This forever links repentance and salvation. Romans 10:9 says - "that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;" This forever links confession and salvation.

"IF BAPTISM IS NECESSARY FOR SALVATION WHY WOULD THE HOLY SPIRIT OMIT IT AS A REQUIREMENT WHEN A GENTILE ASKS WHAT MUST I DO TO BE SAVED? The anwser is found in acts 16."

Well, the Jews asked the same question in Acts 2:37. Peter replied with "repent and be baptized..." In Acts 16 you have to read all the way through vs 34. Paul does tell them to believe in Acts 16:31. But, you can't stop there. In vs 32 they spoke the word of the Lord to them. Doesn't that sound strangely familiar to Acts 11:14 and Cornelius? Acts 16:33 shows that immediately after "speaking the words" they were baptized, "he and all his household." In the bible baptism was done immediately. There was no special service at the end of the month. That is man's invention. They key is vs 34. It says "And he brought them into his house and set food before them, and rejoiced greatly, having believed in God with...." 1) There was no rejoicing until after baptism. Why doesn't after vs 31 the scripture say "they all believed and they ate and rejoiced?" 2) The statement "having believed" compiles everything that was done between vs's 31 & 34. It defines what "believing" is. They had to mentall accept Jesus as savior and submit to baptism. That is what "believing" is. "Believing" is not just saying you trust Christ but also proving it with your actions. Vs 31 says believe. Vs 32 words are spoken. Vs 33 baptism takes place. Vs 34 they rejoice "having believed." "Believing" covers what they did mentally and physically. "Believing" in its fullness is what you accept in your mind and what you show by your actions.

Edited July 28, 2010 by UncleAbee

[biblos]

From time to time, the question "Do I have to be baptized to be saved" comes up. So then just what does baptism have to do with our salvation?

Some groups (notably Roman Catholicism and some parts of the Church of Christ) believe that baptism is essential to salvation: i.e. no baptism, no salvation.

At the other end of the spectrum is the Salvation Army which doesn't practice baptism at all.

Most Christian theology seems to lie somewhere in the middle.

Entire denominations have sprung up over HOW and WHEN baptism should be carried out. Full immersion, sprinkling, pouring; infant baptism, adult baptism, believer's baptism.

So then where is the truth?

Mark 16:16 clearly states: "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

Some will immediately cite the example of the condemned thief on the cross as a proof that baptism is irrelevant. My answer to that is that there are exceptions, (Imminent death. Lack of water availability, health reasons.)

Others will say: Well if I have to baptized to be saved, isn't that a form of works? I would say that faith without works is dead.

You see, baptism doesn't save you, IT SHOWS (confesses) that you are saved.

Romans 6 is the perfect primer on the 'why' of baptism. It explains the correlation of baptism to Christ's death for us.

So then, I personally believe in baptismal confession. It's a public way of saying "I believe in Jesus Christ and the efficacy of His death and the fact of His resurrection."

Just for those who Believe in Baptismal Regeneration I'd have a question:

When a Gentile asks what must I do to be saved. Why would the Holy Spiirt forget to include Baptism? Early Altzheimers setting in? One would think God would give everything necessary for salvation when the exact question is asked by a Gentile Believer.

yet we see in Acts 16 that only Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ is included as that mandatory for Salvation. I have yet to hear a good anwser to that question given its the only time anyone asks what is necessary for Salvation recorded in the New Testament in question form.