We must encourage the poor to work.

[~candice~]

Dave, no where in the bible do we read that organised giving is to be condemned either. I can give to the poor and the sick through organisations who are much wiser than me about how to spend the money, and have the access to greater people in greater need than I know of.

These days, you can sail through life quite easily without being confronted by genuine need in your own local sphere, and we ought not to suggest that only private giving is acceptable.

Yet in the Bible sis we are commanded to render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's and to render unto God that which is God's. The fact that NGO's exist does not alleviate us of True Religion.

Meanwhile, the Government is not a wise distributer of Charity. It's got a secular humanistic minset and it's top heavy and wastes large portions of that which it has stolen through taxation.

peace,

dave

Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's is a call for us to submit to the Lord. I don't see your point there???

And can you elaborate on why true religion must be direct? I have found some wonderful NGO's. Infact, the Cafe I have spoken to you about, takes donations. It is actually better for the recipient to be helped through that cafe than through what I can do for them. I don't in the slightest feel convicted about not giving to the drug users or sick and destitute of my city but rather do it through that organisation.

Sometimes giving money is a bad idea, and the drug users and alcoholics are a fantastic example of this. Giving food directly does help, but giving food in partnership with organised social work will be much more effective. I can't even begin to think of how to buy medication [not OTC, but proper medication] for those on the streets.

The fact that the government and some NGO's has demonstrated itself to be inefficient with it's money does not make giving through a middle man a non biblical concept.

I disagree sister because God has laid the responsibility at your feet. Therefore, you are to discern which way is most efficient and you are to give yourself. I'm not condemning NGO charity and neither am I condemning Governmental charity. What I am condemning is the fact that many a Church and many a Preacher is busy shirking their Faith and allowing the individual believer to remain stunted in their Faith by not encouraging the indvidual believer to practice True Religion. Many good things happen through this kind of giving and God will get all the Glory regardless of the intent.

I am condemning Marxism in the Church.

peace,

dave

I don't understand what you are disagreeing with me about?

[Guest]

....What I am condemning is the fact that many a Church and many a Preacher is busy shirking their Faith and allowing the individual believer to remain stunted in their Faith by not encouraging the individual believer to practice . Many good things happen through this kind of giving and God will get all the Glory regardless of the intent.

I am condemning Marxism in the Church....

Amen!

Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world. James 1:27

There Is No Love In Taking Under The Threat Of Lethal Force From One Human Who Earned It And After A Healthy Cut Then Giving That Person's Labor And Savings

Whoso is partner with a thief hateth his own soul: he heareth cursing, and bewrayeth it not. Proverbs 29:24

To Folks Who For The Most Part Will Refuse

The sluggard is wiser in his own conceit than seven men that can render a reason. Proverbs 26:16

To Do Anything To Help Themselves

Go to the ant, thou sluggard; consider her ways, and be wise:

Which having no guide, overseer, or ruler,

Provideth her meat in the summer, and gathereth her food in the harvest.

How long wilt thou sleep, O sluggard? when wilt thou arise out of thy sleep?

Yet a little sleep, a little slumber, a little folding of the hands to sleep:

So shall thy poverty come as one that travelleth, and thy want as an armed man. Proverbs 6:6-11

Or Others

[Matthitjah]

Dave.... you can't use Jesus healings against socialistic medicine . How are we to replicate that? We can't heal like that!!!

We can't ? Explain please.

Scripture says we can and we will.

It's only my opinion but God has destroyed two economic systems in the past 30 years that had become idols and is busy taking down the idol of Western medicine. What will we do when we can no longer just take a pill and even out? Who will we rely on when the Government tells us to go home and die because we're too old for a heart transplant? What will happen when we take our kids to the Doctor and sit and wait with a child in pain because of the long lines and then are told we forgot, "Ze Papers!"? Come back in three weeks!

Who will we turn to when the Government fails us?

peace,

dave

[Matthitjah]

Dave, no where in the bible do we read that organised giving is to be condemned either. I can give to the poor and the sick through organisations who are much wiser than me about how to spend the money, and have the access to greater people in greater need than I know of.

These days, you can sail through life quite easily without being confronted by genuine need in your own local sphere, and we ought not to suggest that only private giving is acceptable.

Yet in the Bible sis we are commanded to render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's and to render unto God that which is God's. The fact that NGO's exist does not alleviate us of True Religion.

Meanwhile, the Government is not a wise distributer of Charity. It's got a secular humanistic minset and it's top heavy and wastes large portions of that which it has stolen through taxation.

peace,

dave

Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's is a call for us to submit to the Lord. I don't see your point there???

And can you elaborate on why true religion must be direct? I have found some wonderful NGO's. Infact, the Cafe I have spoken to you about, takes donations. It is actually better for the recipient to be helped through that cafe than through what I can do for them. I don't in the slightest feel convicted about not giving to the drug users or sick and destitute of my city but rather do it through that organisation.

Sometimes giving money is a bad idea, and the drug users and alcoholics are a fantastic example of this. Giving food directly does help, but giving food in partnership with organised social work will be much more effective. I can't even begin to think of how to buy medication [not OTC, but proper medication] for those on the streets.

The fact that the government and some NGO's has demonstrated itself to be inefficient with it's money does not make giving through a middle man a non biblical concept.

I disagree sister because God has laid the responsibility at your feet. Therefore, you are to discern which way is most efficient and you are to give yourself. I'm not condemning NGO charity and neither am I condemning Governmental charity. What I am condemning is the fact that many a Church and many a Preacher is busy shirking their Faith and allowing the individual believer to remain stunted in their Faith by not encouraging the indvidual believer to practice True Religion. Many good things happen through this kind of giving and God will get all the Glory regardless of the intent.

I am condemning Marxism in the Church.

peace,

dave

I don't understand what you are disagreeing with me about?

I'm disagreeing with your assertion that God leaves us a way out by giving through a middle man and especially the Government. No where will you see God command us to give through the vehicle of the Government. Matter of fact He actually condemns it. Weere to honor the Governments authority and to repsect it's place but we are not to place our Faith in it, especially in place of God. Which is what we do when we ask it to do our job.

[~candice~]

Dave, no where in the bible do we read that organised giving is to be condemned either. I can give to the poor and the sick through organisations who are much wiser than me about how to spend the money, and have the access to greater people in greater need than I know of.

These days, you can sail through life quite easily without being confronted by genuine need in your own local sphere, and we ought not to suggest that only private giving is acceptable.

Yet in the Bible sis we are commanded to render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's and to render unto God that which is God's. The fact that NGO's exist does not alleviate us of True Religion.

Meanwhile, the Government is not a wise distributer of Charity. It's got a secular humanistic minset and it's top heavy and wastes large portions of that which it has stolen through taxation.

peace,

dave

Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's is a call for us to submit to the Lord. I don't see your point there???

And can you elaborate on why true religion must be direct? I have found some wonderful NGO's. Infact, the Cafe I have spoken to you about, takes donations. It is actually better for the recipient to be helped through that cafe than through what I can do for them. I don't in the slightest feel convicted about not giving to the drug users or sick and destitute of my city but rather do it through that organisation.

Sometimes giving money is a bad idea, and the drug users and alcoholics are a fantastic example of this. Giving food directly does help, but giving food in partnership with organised social work will be much more effective. I can't even begin to think of how to buy medication [not OTC, but proper medication] for those on the streets.

The fact that the government and some NGO's has demonstrated itself to be inefficient with it's money does not make giving through a middle man a non biblical concept.

I disagree sister because God has laid the responsibility at your feet. Therefore, you are to discern which way is most efficient and you are to give yourself. I'm not condemning NGO charity and neither am I condemning Governmental charity. What I am condemning is the fact that many a Church and many a Preacher is busy shirking their Faith and allowing the individual believer to remain stunted in their Faith by not encouraging the indvidual believer to practice True Religion. Many good things happen through this kind of giving and God will get all the Glory regardless of the intent.

I am condemning Marxism in the Church.

peace,

dave

I don't understand what you are disagreeing with me about?

I'm disagreeing with your assertion that God leaves us a way out by giving through a middle man and especially the Government. No where will you see God command us to give through the vehicle of the Government. Matter of fact He actually condemns it. Weere to honor the Governments authority and to repsect it's place but we are not to place our Faith in it, especially in place of God. Which is what we do when we ask it to do our job.

Dave, the government is just one way to give, it is not the object of faith and it shouldn't be the sole way that we give. But I see nothing wrong with using the government to give to others, it is just a vehicle. It doesn't negate the personal face to face actions we see in 'pure religion'.

Where does scripture condemn giving through the government? BCV please.

I do NOT agree that we place faith in the government in place of God when we give through the government. It is when we expect the government to meet all our needs that we are placing faith in it.

C

[~candice~]

Dave.... you can't use Jesus healings against socialistic medicine . How are we to replicate that? We can't heal like that!!!

We can't ? Explain please.

Scripture says we can and we will.

It's only my opinion but God has destroyed two economic systems in the past 30 years that had become idols and is busy taking down the idol of Western medicine. What will we do when we can no longer just take a pill and even out? Who will we rely on when the Government tells us to go home and die because we're too old for a heart transplant? What will happen when we take our kids to the Doctor and sit and wait with a child in pain because of the long lines and then are told we forgot, "Ze Papers!"? Come back in three weeks!

Who will we turn to when the Government fails us?

peace,

dave

Wow a Hilter reference and we are only in page 2!

Dave, God does not heal through us every time we pray for it. That is fact, undeniable. We cannot rely on miraculous healing to be the way in which we provide health care for the poor and sick and needy .

[Fez]

Before we jump on this there has to BE WORK AVAILABLE for those who need it. I have a neice and a sister who are both highly qualified and cannot get work even though they are willing to do ANY job and have applied for over 300 jobs between them.

They are not even looked at for many as they are " OVER QUALIFIED ".

Amen! Most of the poor that I employ in poverty relief programs (I manage 1,600 people), would like nothing better than to work full time!

We have had two studies done by honors students, and the reading makes one want to burst into tears. There are just not enough full time jobs and much of my time is spend searching for and begging for funding so that I can keep these people in work, and it is work important to the environment, and they have made a huge difference in the areas they are involved in.

[nebula]

Trouble is, here in America, on account of our free welfare -

Teenage girls in the inner city are getting pregnant just so that they can get an increased welfare check. And so what if they never finish high school?

Some people use their welfare to pay for alcoholic beverages and get drunk.

I could probably list a whole other slew of problems.

It's one thing to argue about those who can't work nor have family or a church to provide for them to justify the system. The problem is welfare has created a culture of lazy dependency that only gets worse as time goes on.

[~candice~]

Trouble is, here in America, on account of our free welfare -

Teenage girls in the inner city are getting pregnant just so that they can get an increased welfare check. And so what if they never finish high school?

Some people use their welfare to pay for alcoholic beverages and get drunk.

I could probably list a whole other slew of problems.

It's one thing to argue about those who can't work nor have family or a church to provide for them to justify the system. The problem is welfare has created a culture of lazy dependency that only gets worse as time goes on.

I don't think anyone would honestly deny that there is an abuse of welfare going on.

[Matthitjah]

Dave.... you can't use Jesus healings against socialistic medicine . How are we to replicate that? We can't heal like that!!!

We can't ? Explain please.

Scripture says we can and we will.

It's only my opinion but God has destroyed two economic systems in the past 30 years that had become idols and is busy taking down the idol of Western medicine. What will we do when we can no longer just take a pill and even out? Who will we rely on when the Government tells us to go home and die because we're too old for a heart transplant? What will happen when we take our kids to the Doctor and sit and wait with a child in pain because of the long lines and then are told we forgot, "Ze Papers!"? Come back in three weeks!

Who will we turn to when the Government fails us?

peace,

dave

Wow a Hilter reference and we are only in page 2!

Dave, God does not heal through us every time we pray for it. That is fact, undeniable. We cannot rely on miraculous healing to be the way in which we provide health care for the poor and sick and needy .

Aww sis. That's disingenuous. Many societies have asked for, "Ze Papers!"

As for reference on condemning relying on the Goevrnment;

Mr