Nearness of the Rapture

[Bible2]

Bold Believer said:

Since we don't KNOW when the Last Day is . . .

While Jesus says "of that day and hour knoweth no man" (Matthew 24:36), he doesn't say "of that day and hour no man will know". That is, he could have been referring only to the time in which Matthew 24:36 was spoken, not to the future. For elsewhere he says: "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth... and he will shew you things to come" (John 16:13). That is, the Holy Spirit can show Christians when Jesus will return. This is similar to what Paul says: "even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things" (1 Corinthians 2:11-12). Also, Amos says: "Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets" (Amos 3:7).

In Matthew 24:44, Jesus could mean that only if Christians don't watch (stay awake, spiritually), his return will happen when they aren't expecting it; compare: "If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee" (Revelation 3:3). For just prior to Matthew 24:44, Jesus had suggested that it is possible for Christians to know when he will return and to watch for that return: "But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready" (Matthew 24:43-44), just as Paul says: "ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief" (1 Thessalonians 5:4). Also, Jesus had just finished saying that he won't return and gather together the church until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). And other scriptures show that Jesus can't return and gather together the church until sometime after there's a falling away (an apostasy) in the church and the Antichrist sits in the temple and declares himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, Matthew 24:9-31). For when Jesus returns to gather together (and marry) the church he will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8, Revelation 19:7,20). So before Jesus returns, the church will have to go through the world-reign of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4, Matthew 24:9-31), which world-reign could begin when the Antichrist's followers set up the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing image of the Antichrist) in the holy place of a third Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Daniel 11:31, Matthew 24:15, Revelation 11:1), and the Antichrist himself sits in the temple and declares himself God (Daniel 11:36, 2 Thessalonians 2:4). Jesus could return on the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation is set up (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15).

The saved, whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life, can fail to watch (stay awake, spiritually) during the time of the coming tribulation, just as during any other time. That's why Jesus commands them to make certain that they continue to watch (stay awake, spiritually) all the way up to the second coming (Matthew 24:42-47), immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). One way for the saved to fail to watch (stay awake, spiritually) is for them to continue in unrepentant sin all the way up to the second coming, so that they will end up losing their salvation for unrepentant sin (Matthew 24:48-51, Hebrews 10:26-29, 1 Corinthians 9:27, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Galatians 5:19-21, 2 Peter 2:20-22, Hebrews 5:9). Another way for the saved to fail to watch (stay awake, spiritually) is for them to fail to patiently continue in good works all the way up to the second coming (Matthew 24:46), so that they will end up losing their salvation for unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2, Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Philippians 2:12, 2 Corinthians 5:9, 2 Peter 1:10-11, Hebrews 6:10-12, Hebrews 5:9). Another way for the saved to fail to watch (stay awake, spiritually) is for them to fail to continue in the faith to the end (Matthew 24:9-13), so that they will will end up losing their salvation for apostasy (Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6, 2 Timothy 2:12, Colossians 1:23, Hebrews 3:6,14). Those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life will end up having their names blotted out of the book of life if they fail to overcome (Revelation 3:5), such as if they fail to be willing to die for Jesus' sake during the coming tribulation (Revelation 12:11, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4).

Bold Believer said:

Since we don't KNOW when the Last Day is, we could say that the Rapture (and the Second Coming since they occur on the same day) is close.

How do you define "close"? For before the second coming and rapture occurs, all of the events of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6-18 have to occur.

Regarding what could happen to fulfill the myriad tribulation details of Revelation chapters 6-18, the tribulation could begin in the future with the horrible war (and its aftermath) of the second through fourth seals (Revelation 6:4-8). The way this war could happen is that the U.S. could build up the Iraqi Army until it's huge enough and well-equipped enough to serve as a proxy army (for the U.S. and Israel) for an all-out ground invasion of Iran (to end Iran's nuclear weapons program and extremist regime). As part of the buildup of the Iraqi Army, the U.S. could reinstall some of the former Baathist military hierarchy to run the Iraqi Army more efficiently and ruthlessly. And if the current Shiite-dominated government of Iraq balks at any invasion of fellow-Shiite Iran, the CIA and the Mossad could then help the Baathists (who see non-Arab Iran as an enemy of Arab autonomy) to take back complete control of Iraq via a coup d'etat.

But then, right when Iraq is all ready to invade Iran, some ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel could destroy the Muslim Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque (the third holiest sites in Islam) on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem, to prepare the site for the building of a third Jewish temple. This could so enrage Muslims worldwide, including the (Muslim) Iraqi Army, that the Iraqi Baathist Generals could see it as a perfect excuse to abandon the plan to invade huge Iran and instead turn and send their huge army against tiny Israel, completely defeating it (Daniel 11:15-17; in verse 17, the Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath"). But this would not be the ultimate reason for the Baathist attack, which could continue on south to also defeat the current Egyptian regime (Daniel 11:15), which the Baathists could see as a puppet of the U.S., just as they could see Israel as a colony of the U.S. The ultimate aim of Baathism is to unite all Arab lands from Oman to Morocco into one massive, powerful United Arab States free of all foreign hegemony.

The all-out Iraqi attack on Israel could be joined by the Baathist Syrian Army (with all of its missiles, many tipped with nerve agents), as well as by all of Iran's long-range missiles and all of Hizballah's and Hamas' missiles and guerrillas. Tiny Israel could find itself suddenly attacked from all sides, thousands of missiles raining down all at once on all of its cities and military bases, hundreds of Iraqi tanks (meant to occupy huge Iran) pouring across its borders. As Israel starts to see its tiny sliver of land completely overrun, and sees its defeat as imminent, in retaliation it could drop nuclear bombs on Baghdad, Damascus (Isaiah 17:1), Tehran, and all the other major cities of Iraq, Syria, and Iran. There could be so many nuclear explosions sending so much radioactive dust and ash so high into the atmosphere that it could be blown eastward and fall on hugely-populated South Asia, ruining so many crop fields and immune systems there with radiation that one-fourth of the world could end up dying from the war and its aftermath of famines and epidemics. This could fulfill the horrible war which will begin the coming tribulation, which war will, with its aftermath of famines and epidemics, end up killing one-fourth of the world (Revelation 6:4-8). The "great sword" of this war (Revelation 6:4) could be Israel's nuclear weapons.

And this brings us only to the fourth seal of the tribulation (Revelation 6:8). After that there will be a terrible series of natural disasters unprecedented in their magnitude, such as a gigantic volcanic eruption (Revelation 6:12-14), possibly of the Yellowstone Caldera, and then the collapse into the ocean of another volcano (Revelation 8:8-9), possibly one of the Canary Islands, the collapse of which could set up a huge tsunami which could take out the eastern seaboard of the U.S. Then a comet will strike the earth (Revelation 8:10-11), possibly in the U.S. Great Lakes region. As the comet falls from the sky it will look like a great star, or like a burning lamp in the sky (Revelation 8:10). It will strike a region of the earth which contains a third of the world's fresh surface water (Revelation 8:10), and it will contain some poisonous element which will poison that third of the world's fresh surface water so that many who drink from it will die (Revelation 8:11).

After that will come a one-two punch of what the world will no doubt try to interpret as being two different "alien" invasions, the first "aliens" being weird locust-like creatures which will suddenly swarm up from the bottomless pit to torment mankind with excruciating stings for five months (Revelation 9:2-10). They will be led by a fallen angel named Abaddon (Revelation 9:11). The world could see the weird locust-like creatures coming up from the ground as aliens which had been hibernating for thousands of years in caverns deep within the earth's crust. The locust-like creatures won't kill anyone, but they will make those they sting want to die the pain will be so bad (Revelation 9:5-6). After the locust-like creatures have stung mankind for five months, the locust-like creatures could be killed off by an army of 200,000,000 weird horse-like creatures who will then come upon the earth and kill a third of mankind (Revelation 9:16-18). This army will be led by four powerful fallen angels who will be released from being bound in the Euphrates (Revelation 9:14-15). If the army of horse-creatures descends from the sky in spaceships, the world could see them as a different race of aliens. The fallen angels could employ the army of horse-like creatures to make mankind completely desperate before its complete takeover by Satan (the dragon) and the Antichrist (the beast) mid-tribulation (Revelation 12:9-13:18).

When the army of 200,000,000 weird horse-like creatures starts killing a third of mankind (Revelation 9:16-18), then could also begin the biggest deception ever wrought upon mankind (besides the original one in Eden). For the Antichrist, who by that time could have managed to have been elected as the President of a Mediterranean Union formed by the joining of the European Union with an Arab Union stretching from Oman to Morocco, could announce to the world that he has sent a mental distress call to (what he could call) "My Father, our Lord Lucifer, to come with his legions of angels and rescue mankind from these terrible aliens".

It's at his point that Lucifer and his angels could be cast down out of heaven to the earth for good after losing a war in heaven (Revelation 12:7-9). But instead of coming down as a defeated force, they could descend for all the world to see in beautiful, gleaming spaceships onto the "Champ de Mars" (Mars being the same as Marduk, the chief god of ancient Babylon), the large open area in front of the Eiffel Tower in Paris. And Lucifer, a literal, seven-headed dragon (Revelation 12:3) could emerge in great splendor and command his legions of angels to destroy all the horse-like "aliens" slaughtering mankind. Lucifer could say that he has come to rescue mankind because the Antichrist, who he could say is his only-begotten "Son", was able to send out a mental distress call to his "Father" Lucifer in heaven to come to the rescue with his legions of angels (like an Antichrist counterfeit of Matthew 26:53: "Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?"). Lucifer and the Antichrist could then be received by the world as the saviors of mankind.

The world could at first see the dragon Lucifer and his angels as merely different aliens, more powerful than the horse-like aliens. The world could think that Lucifer and his angels are (in the world's words) "come to visit the earth and help mankind to survive this awful tribulation. They will bring us to the next level of scientific advancement and to the next level of spiritual enlightenment". The New Agers could even welcome them with open arms as the "Ascended Masters" come in person to bring mankind into "the New Age". Lucifer and his angels themselves could explain to the world that they aren't aliens in the sense of material beings from somewhere else in the galaxy, but are a higher order of (in their words) "wholly-beneficent" spiritual beings come from the third-heaven spiritual realm (outside of the material universe) to rescue mankind.

Lucifer and the Antichrist, along with the miracle-working False Prophet of the Antichrist, will then deceive the world into actually worshipping Lucifer (the dragon) and the Antichrist (the beast), and an image of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4-16, Revelation 19:20, 2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). And everyone will be made to receive a mark of the Antichrist on their right hand or forehead, consisting of the name of the Antichrist or the number of his name (Revelation 13:16-18). The Antichrist will turn the world against YHWH, the God of the Bible, speaking terrible things against him (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36). The Antichrist could lie and say that it was YHWH who sent against mankind the awful alien creatures (and all the preceding, natural disasters of the tribulation: Revelation 6:12-14, Revelation 8:7-12), when in fact it could be Lucifer and his fallen angels who did all of that from behind the scenes, so that they could subsequently arrive on the world stage as if they were the good guys come to rescue mankind.

They could promise mankind that they will help mankind to defeat YHWH and to escape (what they could call) "YHWH's vile prisonhouse of this material universe, and return to the heavenly, spiritual realm of bliss, the Pleroma, where mankind existed in pure-spirit form from all eternity, before by some mishap mankind fell into YHWH's trap and became enmeshed in the material realm". This lie is what Gnosticism teaches. The Antichrist will be a Gnostic, for he will revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36) and deny that Christ is flesh (1 John 4:3). The Antichrist will at the same time also be a Luciferian, for he will bring the world into the worship of Lucifer (Satan) the dragon (Revelation 13:4). The Antichrist could present him to the world as (in his words) "Our Lord Lucifer, the Savior of mankind. He will free us from YHWH's tyranny and lead us back into the Pleroma to live in bliss forever".

After Lucifer and the Antichrist have completely deceived the world and ruled it ruthlessly for 42 months (Revelation 13:4-18), YHWH will send his vials of wrath against the unsaved world (Revelation 16). Those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at the time of the vials (Revelation 16:15) will go into protective chambers which they will have built for themselves on the earth (Isaiah 26:20), just as Noah and his family went into the protective ark which they had built for themselves on the earth (Genesis 7:7). Near the end of the vials of wrath, unclean spirits like frogs will come out of the mouths of Lucifer (the dragon), the Antichrist (the beast), and the False Prophet (Revelation 16:13), and these unclean spirits like frogs will go forth and perform amazing miracles to convince all the armies of the world to gather together at Armageddon (Har Megiddo: Mount Megiddo in northern Israel) (Revelation 16:16) in an attempt to fight and defeat YHWH himself (Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19). After gathering together at Armageddon, all the armies will then travel south and defeat Jerusalem, right before the real Christ, Jesus Christ (who is YHWH, John 10:30), returns from heaven and defeats them (Zechariah 14:2-15, Revelation 19:21). Jesus will at that time also defeat the Antichrist himself and the False Prophet (Revelation 19:20), and will have Lucifer bound in the bottomless pit for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:1-3).

Jesus could return 1,335 days after the abomination of desolation is set up (Daniel 12:11-12). The 75 days between the end of the 1,260 days of the world-reign of the Antichrist (Revelation 12:6) and the return of Jesus (Revelation 19:7-21) could be taken up by the seven vials of God's wrath (Revelation 16), which will be poured out on the Antichrist and his followers (Revelation 16:2-21).

Edited August 21, 2010 by Bible2

[Bible2]

wyguy said:

God is the source of our "mental" stability.

Amen. But part of God's building up of our minds is the teachings he gives us in his word, including his teaching us ahead of time about everything that we're going to have to face during the coming tribulation (Mark 13:23, Revelation 1:3), so we can be better prepared mentally to not be deceived by anything that's coming (Matthew 24:4,5,23,24,25, Mark 13:5,6, Luke 21:8, Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), and so we can be better prepared mentally to endure the tribulation with patience and faith unto the end (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13), and not get so mad at God over our and our loved ones' awful sufferings during the tribulation (cf. Isaiah 8:21-22, Matthew 24:9-13, Matthew 13:21) that we wrongly employ our free will to depart from the faith (1 Timothy 4:1, 2 Timothy 4:4, 2 Thessalonians 2:3, Luke 8:13, Matthew 24:9-13), to the ultimate loss of our salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6, 2 Timothy 2:12, Mark 8:35-38, Colossians 1:23, Hebrews 3:6,14, Hebrews 10:38-39).

[Jedi4Yahweh]

Bold Believer said:

Since we don't KNOW when the Last Day is . . .

While Jesus says "of that day and hour knoweth no man" (Matthew 24:36), he doesn't say "of that day and hour no man will know". That is, he could have been referring only to the time in which Matthew 24:36 was spoken, not to the future. For elsewhere he says: "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth... and he will shew you things to come" (John 16:13). That is, the Holy Spirit can show Christians when Jesus will return. This is similar to what Paul says: "even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things" (1 Corinthians 2:11-12). Also, Amos says: "Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets" (Amos 3:7).

In Matthew 24:44, Jesus could mean that only if Christians don't watch (stay awake, spiritually), his return will happen when they aren't expecting it; compare: "If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee" (Revelation 3:3). For just prior to Matthew 24:44, Jesus had suggested that it is possible for Christians to know when he will return and to watch for that return: "But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready" (Matthew 24:43-44), just as Paul says: "ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief" (1 Thessalonians 5:4). Also, Jesus had just finished saying that he won't return and gather together the church until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). And other scriptures show that Jesus can't return and gather together the church until sometime after there's a falling away (an apostasy) in the church and the Antichrist sits in the temple and declares himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, Matthew 24:9-31). For when Jesus returns to gather together (and marry) the church he will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8, Revelation 19:7,20). So before Jesus returns, the church will have to go through the world-reign of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4, Matthew 24:9-31), which world-reign could begin when the Antichrist's followers set up the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing image of the Antichrist) in the holy place of a third Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Daniel 11:31, Matthew 24:15, Revelation 11:1), and the Antichrist himself sits in the temple and declares himself God (Daniel 11:36, 2 Thessalonians 2:4). Jesus could return on the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation is set up (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15).

The saved, whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life, can fail to watch (stay awake, spiritually) during the time of the coming tribulation, just as during any other time. That's why Jesus commands them to make certain that they continue to watch (stay awake, spiritually) all the way up to the second coming (Matthew 24:42-47), immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). One way for the saved to fail to watch (stay awake, spiritually) is for them to continue in unrepentant sin all the way up to the second coming, so that they will end up losing their salvation for unrepentant sin (Matthew 24:48-51, Hebrews 10:26-29, 1 Corinthians 9:27, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Galatians 5:19-21, 2 Peter 2:20-22, Hebrews 5:9). Another way for the saved to fail to watch (stay awake, spiritually) is for them to fail to patiently continue in good works all the way up to the second coming (Matthew 24:46), so that they will end up losing their salvation for unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2, Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Philippians 2:12, 2 Corinthians 5:9, 2 Peter 1:10-11, Hebrews 6:10-12, Hebrews 5:9). Another way for the saved to fail to watch (stay awake, spiritually) is for them to fail to continue in the faith to the end (Matthew 24:9-13), so that they will will end up losing their salvation for apostasy (Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6, 2 Timothy 2:12, Colossians 1:23, Hebrews 3:6,14). Those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life will end up having their names blotted out of the book of life if they fail to overcome (Revelation 3:5), such as if they fail to be willing to die for Jesus' sake during the coming tribulation (Revelation 12:11, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4).

Bold Believer said:

Since we don't KNOW when the Last Day is, we could say that the Rapture (and the Second Coming since they occur on the same day) is close.

How do you define "close"? For before the second coming and rapture occurs, all of the events of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6-18 have to occur.

Regarding what could happen to fulfill the myriad tribulation details of Revelation chapters 6-18, the tribulation could begin in the future with the horrible war (and its aftermath) of the second through fourth seals (Revelation 6:4-8). The way this war could happen is that the U.S. could build up the Iraqi Army until it's huge enough and well-equipped enough to serve as a proxy army (for the U.S. and Israel) for an all-out ground invasion of Iran (to end Iran's nuclear weapons program and extremist regime). As part of the buildup of the Iraqi Army, the U.S. could reinstall some of the former Baathist military hierarchy to run the Iraqi Army more efficiently and ruthlessly. And if the current Shiite-dominated government of Iraq balks at any invasion of fellow-Shiite Iran, the CIA and the Mossad could then help the Baathists (who see non-Arab Iran as an enemy of Arab autonomy) to take back complete control of Iraq via a coup d'etat.

But then, right when Iraq is all ready to invade Iran, some ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel could destroy the Muslim Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque (the third holiest sites in Islam) on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem, to prepare the site for the building of a third Jewish temple. This could so enrage Muslims worldwide, including the (Muslim) Iraqi Army, that the Iraqi Baathist Generals could see it as a perfect excuse to abandon the plan to invade huge Iran and instead turn and send their huge army against tiny Israel, completely defeating it (Daniel 11:15-17; in verse 17, the Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath"). But this would not be the ultimate reason for the Baathist attack, which could continue on south to also defeat the current Egyptian regime (Daniel 11:15), which the Baathists could see as a puppet of the U.S., just as they could see Israel as a colony of the U.S. The ultimate aim of Baathism is to unite all Arab lands from Oman to Morocco into one massive, powerful United Arab States free of all foreign hegemony.

The all-out Iraqi attack on Israel could be joined by the Baathist Syrian Army (with all of its missiles, many tipped with nerve agents), as well as by all of Iran's long-range missiles and all of Hizballah's and Hamas' missiles and guerrillas. Tiny Israel could find itself suddenly attacked from all sides, thousands of missiles raining down all at once on all of its cities and military bases, hundreds of Iraqi tanks (meant to occupy huge Iran) pouring across its borders. As Israel starts to see its tiny sliver of land completely overrun, and sees its defeat as imminent, in retaliation it could drop nuclear bombs on Baghdad, Damascus (Isaiah 17:1), Tehran, and all the other major cities of Iraq, Syria, and Iran. There could be so many nuclear explosions sending so much radioactive dust and ash so high into the atmosphere that it could be blown eastward and fall on hugely-populated South Asia, ruining so many crop fields and immune systems there with radiation that one-fourth of the world could end up dying from the war and its aftermath of famines and epidemics. This could fulfill the horrible war which will begin the coming tribulation, which war will, with its aftermath of famines and epidemics, end up killing one-fourth of the world (Revelation 6:4-8). The "great sword" of this war (Revelation 6:4) could be Israel's nuclear weapons.

And this brings us only to the fourth seal of the tribulation (Revelation 6:8). After that there will be a terrible series of natural disasters unprecedented in their magnitude, such as a gigantic volcanic eruption (Revelation 6:12-14), possibly of the Yellowstone Caldera, and then the collapse into the ocean of another volcano (Revelation 8:8-9), possibly one of the Canary Islands, the collapse of which could set up a huge tsunami which could take out the eastern seaboard of the U.S. Then a comet will strike the earth (Revelation 8:10-11), possibly in the U.S. Great Lakes region. As the comet falls from the sky it will look like a great star, or like a burning lamp in the sky (Revelation 8:10). It will strike a region of the earth which contains a third of the world's fresh surface water (Revelation 8:10), and it will contain some poisonous element which will poison that third of the world's fresh surface water so that many who drink from it will die (Revelation 8:11).

After that will come a one-two punch of what the world will no doubt try to interpret as being two different "alien" invasions, the first "aliens" being weird locust-like creatures which will suddenly swarm up from the bottomless pit to torment mankind with excruciating stings for five months (Revelation 9:2-10). They will be led by a fallen angel named Abaddon (Revelation 9:11). The world could see the weird locust-like creatures coming up from the ground as aliens which had been hibernating for thousands of years in caverns deep within the earth's crust. The locust-like creatures won't kill anyone, but they will make those they sting want to die the pain will be so bad (Revelation 9:5-6). After the locust-like creatures have stung mankind for five months, the locust-like creatures could be killed off by an army of 200,000,000 weird horse-like creatures who will then come upon the earth and kill a third of mankind (Revelation 9:16-18). This army will be led by four powerful fallen angels who will be released from being bound in the Euphrates (Revelation 9:14-15). If the army of horse-creatures descends from the sky in spaceships, the world could see them as a different race of aliens. The fallen angels could employ the army of horse-like creatures to make mankind completely desperate before its complete takeover by Satan (the dragon) and the Antichrist (the beast) mid-tribulation (Revelation 12:9-13:18).

When the army of 200,000,000 weird horse-like creatures starts killing a third of mankind (Revelation 9:16-18), then could also begin the biggest deception ever wrought upon mankind (besides the original one in Eden). For the Antichrist, who by that time could have managed to have been elected as the President of a Mediterranean Union formed by the joining of the European Union with an Arab Union stretching from Oman to Morocco, could announce to the world that he has sent a mental distress call to (what he could call) "My Father, our Lord Lucifer, to come with his legions of angels and rescue mankind from these terrible aliens".

It's at his point that Lucifer and his angels could be cast down out of heaven to the earth for good after losing a war in heaven (Revelation 12:7-9). But instead of coming down as a defeated force, they could descend for all the world to see in beautiful, gleaming spaceships onto the "Champ de Mars" (Mars being the same as Marduk, the chief god of ancient Babylon), the large open area in front of the Eiffel Tower in Paris. And Lucifer, a literal, seven-headed dragon (Revelation 12:3) could emerge in great splendor and command his legions of angels to destroy all the horse-like "aliens" slaughtering mankind. Lucifer could say that he has come to rescue mankind because the Antichrist, who he could say is his only-begotten "Son", was able to send out a mental distress call to his "Father" Lucifer in heaven to come to the rescue with his legions of angels (like an Antichrist counterfeit of Matthew 26:53: "Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?"). Lucifer and the Antichrist could then be received by the world as the saviors of mankind.

The world could at first see the dragon Lucifer and his angels as merely different aliens, more powerful than the horse-like aliens. The world could think that Lucifer and his angels are (in the world's words) "come to visit the earth and help mankind to survive this awful tribulation. They will bring us to the next level of scientific advancement and to the next level of spiritual enlightenment". The New Agers could even welcome them with open arms as the "Ascended Masters" come in person to bring mankind into "the New Age". Lucifer and his angels themselves could explain to the world that they aren't aliens in the sense of material beings from somewhere else in the galaxy, but are a higher order of (in their words) "wholly-beneficent" spiritual beings come from the third-heaven spiritual realm (outside of the material universe) to rescue mankind.

Lucifer and the Antichrist, along with the miracle-working False Prophet of the Antichrist, will then deceive the world into actually worshipping Lucifer (the dragon) and the Antichrist (the beast), and an image of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4-16, Revelation 19:20, 2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). And everyone will be made to receive a mark of the Antichrist on their right hand or forehead, consisting of the name of the Antichrist or the number of his name (Revelation 13:16-18). The Antichrist will turn the world against YHWH, the God of the Bible, speaking terrible things against him (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36). The Antichrist could lie and say that it was YHWH who sent against mankind the awful alien creatures (and all the preceding, natural disasters of the tribulation: Revelation 6:12-14, Revelation 8:7-12), when in fact it could be Lucifer and his fallen angels who did all of that from behind the scenes, so that they could subsequently arrive on the world stage as if they were the good guys come to rescue mankind.

They could promise mankind that they will help mankind to defeat YHWH and to escape (what they could call) "YHWH's vile prisonhouse of this material universe, and return to the heavenly, spiritual realm of bliss, the Pleroma, where mankind existed in pure-spirit form from all eternity, before by some mishap mankind fell into YHWH's trap and became enmeshed in the material realm". This lie is what Gnosticism teaches. The Antichrist will be Gnostic, for he will revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36) and deny that Christ is flesh (1 John 4:3). The Antichrist will at the same time also be Luciferian, for he will bring the world into the worship of Lucifer (Satan) the dragon (Revelation 13:4). The Antichrist could present him to the world as (in his words) "Our Lord Lucifer, the Savior of mankind. He will free us from YHWH's tyranny and lead us back into the Pleroma to live in bliss forever".

After Lucifer and the Antichrist have completely deceived the world and ruled it ruthlessly for 42 months (Revelation 13:4-18), YHWH will send his vials of wrath against the unsaved world (Revelation 16). Those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at the time of the vials (Revelation 16:15) will go into protective chambers which they will have built for themselves on the earth (Isaiah 26:20), just as Noah and his family went into the protective ark which they had built for themselves on the earth (Genesis 7:7). Near the end of the vials of wrath, unclean spirits like frogs will come out of the mouths of Lucifer (the dragon), the Antichrist (the beast), and the False Prophet (Revelation 16:13), and these unclean spirits like frogs will go forth and perform amazing miracles to convince all the armies of the world to gather together at Armageddon (Har Megiddo: Mount Megiddo in northern Israel) (Revelation 16:16) in an attempt to fight and defeat YHWH himself (Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19). After gathering together at Armageddon, all the armies will then travel south and defeat Jerusalem, right before the real Christ, Jesus Christ (who is YHWH, John 10:30), returns from heaven and defeats them (Zechariah 14:2-15, Revelation 19:21). Jesus will at that time also defeat the Antichrist himself and the False Prophet (Revelation 19:20), and will have Lucifer bound in the bottomless pit for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:1-3).

Jesus could return 1,335 days after the abomination of desolation is set up (Daniel 12:11-12). The 75 days between the end of the 1,260 days of the world-reign of the Antichrist (Revelation 12:6) and the return of Jesus (Revelation 19:7-21) could be taken up by the seven vials of God's wrath (Revelation 16), which will be poured out on the Antichrist and his followers (Revelation 16:2-21).

Wow...nicely explained. That is pretty in-depth. How long did it take you to prepare this post??? lol

Question regarding the 3 1/2 years of great tribulation which Jesus spoke of.. Jesus says that the end times will be shortened for the elects sake or no flesh will be saved. Does this mean God is going to intervene before the 3.5 years of great tribulation ends. Meaning that the great tribulation is not going to last 3.5 years or it could mean that God is going to rapture the Church before the end of the 3.5 years ends while the great tribulation and wrath or poured out on the Anti-Christ and his followers. Whats your take?

Mat 24:21-22 for then shall be great tribulation, such as hath not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, nor ever shall be. (22) And except those days had been shortened, no flesh would have been saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Maybe this should be a new topic.

[wyguy]

I think God is communicating the very nearness of the Rapture.

The nearness of His coming, yes. But not the rapture.

Interesting comment Sis. Care to expound? You did a great job before!

the question should be are you ready when Christ comes not when he comes

indeed the question should be are you ready. in the book of revelation it speaks of the bride she has made herself ready. unless we are ready for jesus return we will be left behind

Here are some questions for all you 'left behinders' and pre-millennialists:

1. If the rapture is the first resurrection (regardless of whether it occurs pre, mid or post tribulationally) and the first resurrection is for Believers, changing their bodies to glorified and raising them if they're dead, what happens to those poor folks who (in your theology) go through the tribulation and miss the first resurrection, since the fate of those in the second resurrection is clearly Gehenna! From Rev 20:5 to Rev 20:15, there is only one resurrection in which ANYBODY gets saved and that's the first. The others to go Gehenna. Are they forced to go through all eternity trapped in these rags?

Those believers that live through the Tribulation will enter the millennium with their human bodies. God will extend their mortal lives. That's why it's speaks of those that die during the millennium after a few hundred years as having died "young." They will also continue to have children. It will be most of their children and grandchildren that will join Satan in his final rebellion after he is released from the bottomless pit.

2. If the rapture splits the second coming into two parts as pre and mid tribulationism suggests, is the destruction of Gog and Magog at the end of the 'literal millennium' the THIRD coming?

Gog and Magog (Russia and her allies) will be destroyed on the hills of Isreal during the 7 year Tribulation, not at the end of the millennuim. That's why the Bible says it will take them 7 years to burn the invaders weapons for fuel. Again, it's Satan and those who follow him in his final rebellion that will be the ones destroyed after the millennium.

3. How do the people left behind get saved, since God takes the Holy Spirit when He raptures the Church? Is there some other way to get saved that we haven't heard of? Doesn't Scripture state that there is no other name under heaven by which we must be saved?

It's not the Holy Spirit that is taken away (how can God NOT be somewhere?) The "restrainer" is the salt and light of the world, i.e., 'the CHURCH."

These are vital questions which I believe must be answered to clear up the confusion that any theory other than a Last Day Second Coming, Rapture and Resurrection brings.

[wyguy]

wyguy said:

God is the source of our "mental" stability.

Amen. But part of God's building up of our minds is the teachings he gives us in his word, including his teaching us ahead of time about everything that we're going to have to face during the coming tribulation (Mark 13:23, Revelation 1:3), so we can be better prepared mentally to not be deceived by anything that's coming True believers won't be deceived. The Bible says IF it be possible, the very elect would be deceived. (Matthew 24:24) (Matthew 24:4,5,23,24,25, Mark 13:5,6, Luke 21:8, Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), and so we can be better prepared mentally to endure the tribulation with patience and faith unto the end Faith itself comes from God. The Bible says JESUS is the author and finisher of our faith. It's not about you at all. (Hebrews 12:2) (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13), and not get so mad at God over our and our loved ones' awful sufferings during the tribulation An actual believer does not get "mad" at God. To do so is a terrible sin. To be mad at God is saying that you do not trust Him to have your best interests in mind. (cf. Isaiah 8:21-22, Matthew 24:9-13, Matthew 13:21) that we wrongly employ our free will to depart from the faith (1 Timothy 4:1, 2 Timothy 4:4, 2 Thessalonians 2:3, Luke 8:13, Matthew 24:9-13), to the ultimate loss of our salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6, 2 Timothy 2:12, Mark 8:35-38, Colossians 1:23, Hebrews 3:6,14, Hebrews 10:38-39). An actual believer cannot lose his/her salvation because salvation is not gained or kept by anything you did or can do. We are saved as a GIFT from God, and our salvation is maintained by God. The Bible says nothing in ALL CREATION can separate us from the love of God. If you are a created thing, it means not even YOU can. (Romans 8:39) If anyone leaves the faith, it's proof that they never were actual believers in the first place. (1 John 2:19)

[Bible2]

Jedi4Yahweh said:

Jesus says that the end times will be shortened for the elects sake or no flesh will be saved. Does this mean God is going to intervene before the 3.5 years of great tribulation ends.

Maybe not. For Jesus may not return until 75 days after the legal end (Revelation 11:15) of the Antichrist's world reign (Revelation 13:7), which will legally last for 3.5 years (Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7, Revelation 12:14), or 42 months (Revelation 13:5, Revelation 11:2b), or 1,260 days (Revelation 12:6, Revelation 11:3).

The 1,260 days of the Antichrist's world reign could begin when he attacks a third Jewish temple in Jerusalem, stops the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices (Daniel 11:31), sits in the temple and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36), and then sets up the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing android-image of the Antichrist, cf. Revelation 13:15) in the holy place of the temple (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31, Daniel 12:11).

Jesus could return 1,335 days after the abomination of desolation is set up (Daniel 12:11-12). The 75 days between the legal end of the 1,260 days of the world reign of the Antichrist (Revelation 12:6) and the return of Jesus (Revelation 19:7-21) could be taken up by the seven vials of God's wrath (Revelation 16), which will be poured out on the Antichrist and his followers (Revelation 16:2-21). Those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at the time of the vials (Revelation 16:15) will go into protective chambers which they will have built for themselves on the earth (Isaiah 26:20), just as Noah and his family went into the protective ark which they had built for themselves on the earth (Genesis 7:7).

The seventh vial, the final event of the tribulation (Revelation 16:17), will bring the destruction of figurative Babylon (Revelation 16:19). The harlot Babylon (Revelation chapters 17-18) represents all of mankind's corrupt political (Revelation 17:18), economic (Revelation 18:11), and religious (Revelation 18:24) systems throughout the earth (Revelation 18:3) and throughout history (Revelation 17:9-10). The Antichrist's (the beast's) ten kings will destroy with fire all that the harlot Babylon represents (Revelation 17:16-17) when they destroy all of the cities of the world, possibly with nukes, at the time of the seventh vial (Revelation 16:19, Revelation 17:17a).

Mark 13:20 could mean that if Jesus didn't return immediately after the seventh vial (Matthew 24:29-31), the death of all flesh on the earth would be inevitable because of a nuclear-winter scenario (which Jesus will miraculously prevent at his return). That is, "except that the Lord had shortened those days" (Mark 13:20) could mean that if the Lord hadn't determined (from the beginning of Creation, cf. Isaiah 46:10) that he would return immediately after the seventh vial, but instead had determined to just let the world suffer through the aftermath of the seventh vial, then all flesh on the earth would die in the aftermath.

[Bible2]

wyguy said:

The Bible says IF it be possible, the very elect would be deceived. (Matthew 24:24)

In Matthew 24:24, Jesus doesn't say "if it were possible", in the sense of it not being possible. Instead, in the original Greek all Jesus says is "if possible", meaning that false Christs and false prophets will perform great miracles by the power of Satan (cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:9) as part of Satan's intention of deceiving as many of the elect as possible. Jesus nowhere says that it's not possible for any elect person to be deceived. Instead, Jesus had started out by specifically warning the elect to "Take heed that no man deceive you" (Matthew 24:4), meaning that it is possible for the elect to be deceived, if they do not take heed to Jesus' warning regarding great-miracle-working false Christs and false prophets who will appear in the future (Matthew 24:4,5,23,24,25, Mark 13:5,6, Luke 21:8, Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20).

The elect can also be deceived in other ways, either before their salvation (Titus 3:3, Romans 7:11) or after their salvation (1 John 3:7, 1 Corinthians 6:9, 1 Corinthians 15:33, Galatians 6:7, Ephesians 5:6, 2 Thessalonians 2:3). Paul warns the elect that "The Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils" (1 Timothy 4:1); the time will come when some "shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables" (2 Timothy 4:4). For it is possible for a saved person to commit apostasy, to the ultimate loss of his salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6, 2 Timothy 2:12, Mark 8:35-38, Matthew 24:9-13, Colossians 1:23, Hebrews 3:6,14, Matthew 13:21, Luke 8:13, 2 Thessalonians 2:3, Hebrews 10:38-39).

wyguy said:

Faith itself comes from God.

That's right, insofar as initial faith comes from God. For everyone on his own is wholly corrupt (Romans 3:9-12), and so it's impossible for anyone on his own to ever believe in Jesus and be saved through his own will (Romans 9:16, John 1:13, John 6:65) or through his own intellect (1 Corinthians 1:18-2:16). Unsaved people can't possibly understand the gospel (1 Corinthians 2:14, 1 Corinthians 1:18) because only saved people, who have received the miraculous gift of some measure of God's own Spirit, can understand it (1 Corinthians 2:11-14). The unelect can't possibly believe in Jesus and be saved, even when they're shown the truth (John 6:65, John 8:42-47, John 10:26, Matthew 13:38-42), because initial faith comes only to the elect (Acts 13:48) wholly by God's grace as a miraculous gift from God (Ephesians 2:8, John 6:65, 1 Corinthians 3:5), just as initial repentance comes only as a miraculous gift from God (2 Timothy 2:25, Acts 11:18).

wyguy said:

The Bible says JESUS is the author and finisher of our faith.

Regarding Hebrews 12:2, it means that it's only because of Jesus that saved people can continue in the faith to the end (Colossians 1:23, Hebrews 3:6,14). But Jesus doesn't take away the free will of saved people. So it's possible for them to wrongly employ their will to depart from the faith, to commit apostasy, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6, 2 Timothy 2:12, Mark 8:35-38, Matthew 24:9-13).

wyguy said:

An actual believer does not get "mad" at God.

An actual believer can wrongly employ his will to get so mad at God, so offended by God by what God is letting the believer suffer (Matthew 13:21, Matthew 24:9-13, cf. Isaiah 8:21-22), that the believer stops believing (Luke 8:13). Initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only "if" they continue believing to the end (Colossians 1:23, Hebrews 3:6,14, Matthew 24:13), and there's no assurance that they will choose to do that (1 Timothy 4:1, 2 Thessalonians 2:3, John 15:6, Hebrews 6:4-8, 2 Timothy 2:12, Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 10:38-39, 2 Timothy 4:3-4).

wyguy said:

An actual believer cannot lose his/her salvation because salvation is not gained or kept by anything you did or can do.

While initial salvation isn't based on one's prior works (Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5), initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they patiently continue in good works and obedience to the end (Romans 2:6-8, Hebrews 5:9, James 2:24, Philippians 2:12, 2 Corinthians 5:9, 2 Peter 1:10-11, Hebrews 6:10-12, Philippians 3:11-14), and there's no assurance that they will choose to do that (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2).

Also, even if they do continue in good works, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they also continue to repent from every sin they might commit to the end (Hebrews 10:26-29, 1 Corinthians 9:27, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Galatians 5:19-21, Hebrews 5:9), and there's no assurance that they will choose to do that (Matthew 24:48-51, 2 Peter 2:20-22, Romans 8:13, 1 John 5:16, James 5:19-20).

wyguy said:

The Bible says nothing in ALL CREATION can separate us from the love of God.

Regarding Romans 8:39, the earlier verse of Romans 8:28 sets up two conditions for the rest of the passage (Romans 8:28-39): the passage applies to (1) them who are the called according to God's purpose, the elect (Romans 8:33), and who are also (2) them that love God. So the passage applies only to those elect who continue to actually love God, which means those who continue to actually obey him (1 John 5:3). The elect, even after they get saved, can wrongly employ their will to stop obeying God, which means to stop loving him (John 14:24, Matthew 24:12). They need to be careful to keep themselves in the love of God (Jude 1:21) and continue in his goodness (Romans 11:22) by continuing in faithful obedience to him (John 14:21), if they don't want God to ultimately cut them off (Romans 11:22, John 15:2) and cast them away (1 Corinthians 9:27, John 15:6).

Romans 8:39 means that nothing outside of a saved person's own free-willed actions can separate him from God's love. For Romans 8:39 in no way contradicts all the other passages of the Bible which make it so clear that a saved person himself can wrongly employ his will to the ultimate loss of his salvation: A saved person can in the end lose his salvation if he wrongly employs his will to commit sin without repentance (Hebrews 10:26-29, 1 Corinthians 9:27, Matthew 24:48-51, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Galatians 5:19-21, 2 Peter 2:20-22, Romans 8:13, 1 John 5:16, James 5:19-20, Hebrews 5:9), or if he wrongly employs his will to become utterly lazy without repentance (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2, Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Philippians 2:12, 2 Corinthians 5:9, 2 Peter 1:10-11, Hebrews 6:10-12, Philippians 3:11-14, Hebrews 5:9), or if he wrongly employs his will to commit apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6, 2 Timothy 2:12, Mark 8:35-38, Matthew 24:9-13, Colossians 1:23, Hebrews 3:6,14, Matthew 13:21, Luke 8:13, 1 Timothy 4:1, 2 Thessalonians 2:3, Hebrews 10:38-39, 2 Timothy 4:3-4). A saved person can in the end be cut off the same as an unbeliever if he doesn't continue in God's goodness (Romans 11:20-22, Luke 12:45-46). A saved person can in the end have his name blotted out of the book of life if he doesn't overcome (Revelation 3:5).

wyguy said:

If anyone leaves the faith, it's proof that they never were actual believers in the first place. (1 John 2:19)

1 John 2:19 doesn't say that apostate believers were never real believers, but means that apostate believers were never of the overcomers (Revelation 3:5). Real believers who have their names written in the book of life can have their names blotted out if they fail to overcome (Revelation 3:5). People can really believe only for awhile before wrongly employing their will to fall away (Luke 8:13, 1 Timothy 4:1), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8).

Edited August 22, 2010 by Bible2

[Littlelambseativy]

There are many of Jack Kelly's articles that I find so easy to understand that I wish to post just 2 of them here (though there are more on the topic if you go to Gracethrufaith - his website)

As It Was In The Days Of Noah

This Week

[Bold Believer]

There are many of Jack Kelly's articles that I find so easy to understand that I wish to post just 2 of them here (though there are more on the topic if you go to Gracethrufaith - his website)

As It Was In The Days Of Noah

This Week

[Littlelambseativy]

Bold Believer -

Matt 10:34

³⁴"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. ³⁵ For I have come to turn

" 'a man against his father,

a daughter against her mother,

a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law -

³⁶a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.'^[e]

^~~~~~~

^{Jesus came to bring peace through Him with God the Father to the believer. Are you saying that we now have peace on earth?}

^{After the rapture, the Holy Spirit will be at work also but it will be as it was in the Old Testament days, those who believed did not have the Holy Spirit sealed in them as they are after the death and resurrection of Jesus. It was only then that Jesus sent the Holy Spirit. They will have to face the mark of the beast and all of the torment of the satanic host and keep the 10 commandments as they did before the coming of Jesus.}