Nearness of the Rapture

[Jedi4Yahweh]

Time yourself, for this is what I was referring to. Look at the post I referred to with over 100 references. First, time yourself while reading the post, then time yourself while doing both the reading and then looking up the references. While you are doing this, ask yourself if you would have a better understanding if the scripture was provided. Is it the point of the writer to bring understanding or to show how many verses a person to point to? Which is more important? Discuss one point at a time while quoting scripture itself if that is what it takes to bring understanding to the reader. As I stated, all I am reading is a cometary, not a piece of writing where I could gather understanding, unless the understanding I was seeking is how bible2 thinks.

You also have so many references that in order to look them all up, one would forget the reason why they are looking, yet, to read them in your posts would keep the flow of your words moving. If His words are important enough to reference, then they will be far more effective to read. Cut and paste.

Whisper: You don't have to look up every reference.

The references are there if you don't understand something and you want to research it a little deeper. Besides no one is forcing you to look up those references or read his post for that matter, but if you so happen to, then you have that option. He provided those references to help you understand what he was saying, if you so happen to not understand something he said. It's entirely up to him of how he wants to make his post.

Figured I would clue you in.

[JesusisGod2]

I do not believe in the pre-trib rapture, though I have stated that the rapture is closer then we could ever believe. The apostasy is already happening. Look around. I don't know where we are on the time-line, but I do not believe His coming is a ways off.

I am with you on this one. This is a false hope.

[exrockstar]

it would be great if those that believe in rapture were raptured and those that don't, don't. that way everyone gets what they've expected.

God hooks it up like that.

[Rick-Parker]

Parker1 said:

I guess you missed all the Scriptures that wyguy listed throughout his posts.

Note that none were missed, for all were addressed.

Parker1 said:

Or maybe you were thinking of your responses while you were reading his posts?

The posts were read, then responded to.

Parker1 said:

It may not be proof to you, but it is to millions.

What's the proof?

Also, is the truth of something determined by how many people think that it's true? If so, should we then, for example, believe what the Koran says because it's proof to a billion?

Parker1 said:

No, you and he missed the nail, for that very Bible tells us: "According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it. For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each one

[Guest]

it would be great if those that believe in rapture were raptured and those that don't, don't. that way everyone gets what they've expected.

God hooks it up like that.

Hooks! :24:

Dear Brother, When He Says Come

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Wherefore comfort one another with these words. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18

We're Gone!

[Rick-Parker]

I take it you are new to online teaching. People read from many different places where a bible is not available.

If they have access to come to worthy forums then they have access to online bibles.

You also have so many references that in order to look them all up, one would forget the reason why they are looking, yet, to read them in your posts would keep the flow of your words moving. If His words are important enough to reference, then they will be far more effective to read. Cut and paste.

In the post above this one, all I see is your cometary, not His words. You reference over 100 verses while you make a couple of statements.

Bible2 puts a lot of information in to his post with bible references. It would not be ineffective for him to quote each scripture but easier to post a reference and then you do your own homework as you should. If people are too lazy to look up the reference then that's their own fault, but at least he gives biblical references while others only post opinion.

Is that what you would say to a new Christian/lost/seeking person who doesn't happen to own a bible? Perhaps those who don't post the Scripture instead of just the Verse are the ones who need to stop being lazy and do their homework? See how easy a statement such as your ridiculous one can be legitably turned around on you? Think about it.

[wyguy]

If people are too lazy to look up the reference then that's their own fault, but at least he gives biblical references while others only post opinion.

I posted plenty of Scripture in my earlier posts to Bible2, and not just chapter and verse numbers. The problem is, he twists Scripture to make it say what it doesn't mean to justify his beliefs that if one sins, until they repent, or don't do good works, they've lost their salvation. His is a works-righteousness religion that wants to claim credit for keeping themselves saved by their works - and thus robbing Christ of glory. Christ saved them, but now, it's up to THEM to keep themselves saved. It's the same heresy that cults like the Mormons teach.

[OneLight]

Time yourself, for this is what I was referring to. Look at the post I referred to with over 100 references. First, time yourself while reading the post, then time yourself while doing both the reading and then looking up the references. While you are doing this, ask yourself if you would have a better understanding if the scripture was provided. Is it the point of the writer to bring understanding or to show how many verses a person to point to? Which is more important? Discuss one point at a time while quoting scripture itself if that is what it takes to bring understanding to the reader. As I stated, all I am reading is a cometary, not a piece of writing where I could gather understanding, unless the understanding I was seeking is how bible2 thinks.

You also have so many references that in order to look them all up, one would forget the reason why they are looking, yet, to read them in your posts would keep the flow of your words moving. If His words are important enough to reference, then they will be far more effective to read. Cut and paste.

Whisper: You don't have to look up every reference.

The references are there if you don't understand something and you want to research it a little deeper. Besides no one is forcing you to look up those references or read his post for that matter, but if you so happen to, then you have that option. He provided those references to help you understand what he was saying, if you so happen to not understand something he said. It's entirely up to him of how he wants to make his post.

Figured I would clue you in.

How do you know if someone is telling the truth if you don't look up all the references?

I know what this user is doing. Let me say it again, posting the actual words explains the thought far better then pointing to the words. Maybe another example will help you see what I am saying. If not, then so be it. you can enjoy searching every reference while I won't.

The difference between walking in the flesh compared to walking in the Spirit is like night and day. Galatians 5:16-26

OR

Lets look together at the difference between walking in the flesh compared to walking in the Spirit so we both can see the difference, which is like night and day:

Galatians 5:16-26 (New King James Version)

Walking in the Spirit

16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ

[Bible2]

OneLight said:

I take it you are new to online teaching.

Actually, no. Just new to this particular forum, which is great, by the way.

OneLight said:

People read from many different places where a bible is not available.

Actually, anyone who has access to this forum also has access to a free online Bible with a quick-search function, for example at Bible Gateway.

Also, many who read this forum probably also have quick-search Bible software on their PC hard drive, for example, downloaded free from Theophilos.

OneLight said:

You also have so many references that in order to look them all up, one would forget the reason why they are looking . . .

Actually, the online Bible at Bible Gateway lets you look up multiple references at the same time.

For example, let's say you read the following comment in a post:

"Those who are truly saved can in the end lose their salvation is if they wrongly employ their will to commit sin without repentance (Hebrews 10:26-29, 1 Corinthians 9:27, Matthew 24:48-51, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Galatians 5:19-21, 2 Peter 2:20-22, Romans 8:13, 1 John 5:16, James 5:19-20)."

It's very easy to quickly look up all of these references. All you have to do is copy the whole list of references (just as it is, but without the parentheses) and past it into the Bible Gateway quick-search box, and Bible Gateway will instantly quote you all of those references together on a single page, in any translation you like, and in either a column or a row, as you like. Click here to see for yourself. Note that Bible Gateway also has links so you can listen to each passage read out loud, if you want.

OneLight said:

. . . yet, to read them in your posts would keep the flow of your words moving.

Actually, it could be the opposite. For to make someone read quotes of what all of the references in the post say could make someone forget the points that were made in the post regarding what those references mean.

OneLight said:

If His words are important enough to reference, then they will be far more effective to read. Cut and paste.

Tell me. which speaks louder to you while you are working and on a break?

Matthew 4:4

or

But He answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.

There should be no need to quote references in replies to a discussion like this one, where all of the people who have posted clearly already know what the Bible says. The point of the discussion is to get at what the Bible actually means. That's why verses haven't just been referenced, but referenced in connection with statements regarding what those verses mean.

For example, we all know what Matthew 4:4 says, but what does it mean? The comment was made that it means that Christians need to read every word of the Bible (Mathew 4:4) for themselves (2 Timothy 3:15), over and over and over again, and not rely only on whatever snippets of the Bible might happen to be quoted by people on the internet.

OneLight said:

In the post above this one, all I see is your cometary, not His words. You reference over 100 verses while you make a couple of statements.

Note that a lot more than just "a couple" of statements were made in post #118.

And the reason that so many different verses were referenced after stating major points in that post was to show how much the Bible supports those points, so that no one will think that those points are being based on just one verse. For even when what one verse says doesn't appear difficult in itself, it can still be misinterpreted, such as by reading into it things that it doesn't say. In order to avoid any misinterpretation, every verse in the Bible must be read in the context of (qualified by) all the rest of the Bible. In order to arrive at correct doctrine, a verse in one place in the Bible must be compared with (qualified by) other, related verses elsewhere in the Bible (Isaiah 28:9-10, 1 Corinthians 2:13, 2 Timothy 3:16, Matthew 4:4).

OneLight said:

Show me one incident where scripture was written in such a manner where the writer references bible verses and does not quote the scripture.

Note that the Bible was written back when people didn't have their own Bibles, much less free instant-multiple-search online Bibles like at Bible Gateway, or instant-search PC Bible software like available for free download at Theophilos. So back when the Bible was written it was necessary to actually quote a scripture in a writing instead of just giving a reference.

Also, note that the Bible was written back when the books of the Bible had no chapter or verse divisions; that's why the Bible gives no chapter and verse references after it quotes itself. (A good thing about the NIV is that it gives the chapter and verse references at the bottom of the pages where the Bible quotes itself without any references.) The Bible itself often just references the name of the book which is being quoted (e.g. Matthew 3:3), and sometimes the Bible quotes long strings of variously-located verses many with not even a book reference (e.g. Romans 15:9-12, Romans 3:10-18, Romans 9:25-29, Romans 10:18-21, Hebrews 1:5-13). If people made posts like that today to online forums, quoting long strings of variously-located verses without any references, or with just a few book-only references, the readers of those posts would no doubt complain to high heaven, unless they had memorized the entire Bible in the particular translation quoted, and knew in what chapter and verse everything that was quoted is located.

Edited September 3, 2010 by Bible2

[Bible2]

Parker1 said:

None of those Scriptures you have posted state that a true Christian can lose their salvation. They speak of those who are fakers, never surrendered their lives to Christ, never indwelt with the Holy Spirit, never have become as a new person.

Actually, that's incorrect. For example, Hebrews 10:26-29 is referring to saved people, people who have actually been sanctified by Jesus' sacrificial blood (Hebrews 10:29), which sanctification requires faith (Acts 26:18, Romans 3:25). Hebrews 10:26-29 is referring to people who after they get saved wrongly employ their will to commit any sin whatsoever without repentance (Hebrews 10:26). By doing this, these saved people are unwittingly trampling on Jesus and his sacrificial blood and doing despite unto the Spirit of grace (Hebrews 10:29), turning the grace of God into lasciviousness (Jude 1:4), so that their ultimate fate will be worse than if they had never been saved at all (2 Peter 2:20-22). Faith in Jesus' sacrificial blood only remits sins that are past (Romans 3:25), as in sins which have been repented from and confessed to God (1 John 1:9, 1 John 1:7). Jesus' sacrificial blood doesn't remit unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29). So a saved person can in the end lose his salvation if he wrongly employs his will to commit unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29, 1 Corinthians 9:27, Matthew 24:48-51, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Galatians 5:19-21, 2 Peter 2:20-22, Romans 8:13, 1 John 5:16, James 5:19-20, Hebrews 5:9).

The immediate context of Hebrews 10:26-29 is Hebrews 10:25-29, which is addressing "we" believers. Hebrews 10:25-29 is the same idea as Hebrews 3:13: Believers need to gather together and exhort each other so that no believer will fall into any unrepentant sin. For any unrepentant sin will ultimately result in the loss of salvation (Hebrews 10:26-29, 1 Corinthians 9:27, Matthew 24:48-51, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Galatians 5:19-21, 2 Peter 2:20-22, Romans 8:13, 1 John 5:16, James 5:19-20, Hebrews 5:9).

For another example, Hebrews 6:4-8 means that even saved people, who have repented and become partakers of the Holy Spirit, can in the end lose their salvation because of wrongly employing their will to "fall away", to commit apostasy, to formally renounce their faith in Jesus Christ (2 Timothy 2:12, 1 Timothy 4:1, John 15:6, Hebrews 10:38-39, 2 Timothy 4:3-4, Mark 8:35-38, Matthew 24:9-13, Matthew 13:21, Luke 8:13).

For another example, John 15:2a refers to truly saved people who are truly branches in the vine of Jesus, but who fail to produce any fruit even while they are in Jesus. It's only when they end up producing no fruit while they are in Jesus that they are taken away (John 15:2a), cut off from Jesus for their laziness, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30).

For another example, 2 Peter 2:20-22 is referrring to those who had truly been saved, for they had truly escaped the pollutions of the world (cf. 2 Peter 1:4), they had truly been washed (cf. Hebrews 10:22, 1 Corinthians 6:11), through knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ (cf. 2 Peter 1:3-4, John 17:3,17). But they nonetheless subsequently wrongly employed their will to return back to their old sins without repentance, so that their ultimate fate will be worse than if they had never been saved at all (Hebrews 10:26-29).

Parker1 said:

Scripture tells us over and over again that there is NOTHING that can take us out of His hand. That NOTHING includes ourselves, once we are genuinely saved.

Are you referring to John 10:28-29? If so, John 10:28-29 means that no one outside of a saved person can take him out of God's hand. For John 10:28-29 doesn't say that saved people are imprisoned in God's hand, that they can't wrongly employ their will to jump out of God's hand themselves, such as by committing apostasy, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (John 15:6, Hebrews 6:4-8, 2 Timothy 2:12, Mark 8:35-38, Matthew 24:9-13, Colossians 1:23, Hebrews 3:6,14, Matthew 13:21, Luke 8:13, 1 Timothy 4:1, 2 Thessalonians 2:3, Hebrews 10:38-39, 2 Timothy 4:3-4).

Also, John 10:28-29 doesn't say that God himself can't in the end cast saved people out of his hand, that they can't in the end lose their salvation, if they don't continue in God's goodness (Romans 11:20-22), such as by wrongly employing their will to commit sin without repentance (1 Corinthians 9:27, Hebrews 10:26-29, Matthew 24:48-51, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Galatians 5:19-21, 2 Peter 2:20-22, Romans 8:13, 1 John 5:16, James 5:19-20, Hebrews 5:9), or by wrongly employing their will to become utterly lazy without repentance (John 15:2a, Matthew 25:26,30, Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Philippians 2:12, 2 Corinthians 5:9, 2 Peter 1:10-11, Hebrews 6:10-12, Philippians 3:11-14, Hebrews 5:9, Revelation 22:14).

Parker1 said:

Those who are in Christ, and Christ in them, would never desire to walk away, any further than the fleeting thoughts that the enemy tries to use to cast doubt and shake our faith. Christians may backslide, but they are secure in their salvation as long as they were genuinely saved to begin with.

Note that no scripture says that. Instead, the Bible says the opposite (e.g. Hebrews 10:26-29, Hebrews 6:4-8, Matthew 25:26,30).

Regarding Hebrews 10:26-29, for example, one way that a saved person could come to desire to commit sin without repentance would be if he finds a particular sin to be very pleasurable, so pleasurable that he continues in it over time until his heart becomes hardened by the deceitfulness of sin (Hebrews 3:13), to where his love for God grows cold because of the abundance of iniquity (Matthew 24:12), to where he quenches the Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19), to where he sears his conscience as with a hot iron (1 Timothy 4:2), to where he becomes so infatuated with his sin that he can no longer endure the sound doctrine of the Bible (such as Hebrews 10:26-29), but instead latches onto a false, man-made teaching which contradicts the Bible (2 Timothy 4:3-4), such as a false teaching which assures him that there's no way he can lose his salvation, even if he does continue to commit a sin without repentance.

And regarding Hebrews 6:4-8, for another example, one way that a saved person could be brought to the point where he commits apostasy would be if he has a terror of being tortured and killed during a persecution against Christians, so that during such a persecution he completely renounces his faith in Jesus Christ and the gospel in order to keep from being tortured and killed (Mark 8:35-38, 2 Timothy 2:12). Some Christians will fall away in this sense during the coming tribulation (2 Thessalonians 2:3, Matthew 24:9-13, cf. Matthew 13:21, Luke 8:13), when the Antichrist will take control of the entire earth and make war against Christians and physically overcome them in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Matthew 24:9-13).

There will be no way to repent from committing apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8) during that time and worshipping the Antichrist and his image, and receiving his mark on the forehead or the right hand, even if this is done just to keep from getting killed (Revelation 13:15-18); whoever does these things, no matter if they had been saved before, will end up suffering eternal torment in fire and brimstone (Revelation 14:9-12). So Christians must be willing to be killed, even by getting beheaded (Revelation 20:4), before doing these things (Revelation 14:12-13).

This ties in with the fact that a saved person can in the end have his name blotted out of the book of life if he doesn't overcome (Revelation 3:5). An example of saved people "overcoming" <G3528> or "getting the victory" <G3528> (Revelation 15:2) is found later in the book of Revelation, in Revelation 15:2, which refers to those saved people who will be willing to be killed by the coming Antichrist instead of worshipping him to save their lives during the coming worldwide persecution against Christians (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4, Matthew 24:9-13). Christians will be able to spiritually "overcome" the Antichrist and the devil by not loving their lives unto the death (Revelation 12:11).

Parker1 said:

They may not receive all the rewards that some may receive, everything they have done since their salvation may be burnt up as chaff, but they will still be saved "as through fire."

Are you referring to 1 Corinthians 3:15? If so, 1 Corinthians 3:15 refers only to the loss of reward for the work of spiritually building up a church congregation (1 Corinthians 3:8-17), if that work is done in a faulty, worldly manner (1 Corinthians 3:18-21) which focuses on the merely-temporal "wood, hay, stubble" (1 Corinthians 3:12) of human, worldly wisdom (1 Corinthians 3:18-20).

Other verses in the Bible show that if a saved person, whether a church builder or not, wrongly employs his will to stop doing any works whatsoever, to become utterly lazy without repentance, he will in the end lose his salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Philippians 2:12, 2 Corinthians 5:9, 2 Peter 1:10-11, Hebrews 6:10-12, Philippians 3:11-14, Hebrews 5:9, Revelation 22:14).

Or, to put it another way, an initially saved person, whether a church builder or not, will obtain ultimate salvation only if he patiently continues in good works and obedience unto the end (Romans 2:6-8, Hebrews 5:9, James 2:24, Revelation 22:14, Philippians 2:12, 2 Corinthians 5:9, 2 Peter 1:10-11, Hebrews 6:10-12, Philippians 3:11-14), and there's no assurance that he will choose to do that (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only "if" they continue in the faith unto the end (Colossians 1:23, Hebrews 3:6,14), and there's no assurance that they will choose to do that (1 Timothy 4:1, 2 Thessalonians 2:3, Matthew 24:9-13, Luke 8:13, John 15:6, Hebrews 6:4-8, 2 Timothy 2:12, Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 10:38-39, 2 Timothy 4:3-4).

Also, even if they do continue in faith and good works, initially saved people (as was pointed out earlier) will obtain ultimate salvation only if they also continue to repent from every sin they might commit unto the end (Hebrews 10:26-29, 1 Corinthians 9:27, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Galatians 5:19-21), and there's no assurance that they will choose to do that (Matthew 24:48-51, 2 Peter 2:20-22, Romans 8:13, 1 John 5:16, James 5:19-20).

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they help Christians in need (Matthew 25:34-40), and there's no assurance that initially saved people will always choose to do that (3 John 1:10).

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they provide for their families (1 Timothy 5:8), and there's no assurance that initially saved people will always choose to do that (1 Timothy 5:8).

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they don't commit the unforgivable sin, which is blaspheming the Holy Spirit (Mark 3:29). An example of blaspheming the Holy Spirit is saying that an act performed by the power of the Holy Spirit is performed by Satan (Mark 3:22-30). There's no assurance that initially saved people will never choose to say that (cf. 1 Corinthians 14:39, 1 Thessalonians 5:19).

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they don't remove words from the text of the book of Revelation, and then publish the altered text as if it were the original, without repentance (Revelation 22:19). There's no assurance that initially saved people will never choose to do that (cf. 2 Corinthians 4:2).

Initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they continue in God's goodness unto the end (Romans 11:20-22), and there's no assurance that they will choose to do that (Luke 12:45-46). Initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they overcome unto the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26), and there's no assurance that they will choose to do that (Revelation 21:7-8).

Parker1 said:

You believe what you believe on the basis of how you interpret Scripture, while others believe as they do based on how they interpret Scripture.

The reason that so many different verses have often been referenced after stating an interpretation is to show how much the Bible supports that interpretation, so that no one will think that that interpretation is being based on just what one verse says. For even when what one verse says appears plain on its face, it can still be misinterpreted, such as by reading into it things that it doesn't say. In order to avoid any misinterpretation, every verse in the Bible must be read in the context of (qualified by) all the rest of the Bible. In order to arrive at correct doctrine, a verse in one place in the Bible must be compared with (qualified by) other, related verses elsewhere in the Bible (Isaiah 28:9-10, 1 Corinthians 2:13, 2 Timothy 3:16, Matthew 4:4).

Parker1 said:

This divide will never be closed until we are with the Lord.

We're commanded to close the divide now (1 Corinthians 1:10), because it's possible to do so, if everyone is willing to take into account every word of the Bible (Matthew 4:4, 2 Timothy 3:16) when interpreting any one verse (Isaiah 28:9-10, 1 Corinthians 2:13).

Parker1 said:

(Oh, and Christians who believe in Eternal Security don't take it as a license to sin.)

Note that it hasn't been asserted that mistakenly believing in Eternal Security will necessarily result in a saved person continuing in a sin without repentance. But mistakenly believing in Eternal Security could certainly contribute to at least some saved people wrongly employing their will to continue in a sin without repentance (Hebrews 10:26), so that they unwittingly are trampling on Jesus and his sacrificial blood and doing despite unto the Spirit of grace (Hebrews 10:29), turning the grace of God into lasciviousness (Jude 1:4).

An example of what's meant by doing this unwittingly would be a saved person who, because he's been taught incorrectly by his pastor, mistakenly thinks that grace means that no repentance from sin is necessary in order to remain saved in the end, and who mistakenly thinks that Jesus' sacrifice covers unrepentant sins (instead of only sins that are past: Romans 3:25; as in sins which have been repented from and confessed to God: 1 John 1:9), so that this saved person has no idea that he's trampling on Jesus and his sacrificial blood and doing despite unto the Spirit of grace (Hebrews 10:29) by continuing in a sin without repentance (Hebrews 10:26).