Nearness of the Rapture

[Bible2]

wyguy said:

I posted plenty of Scripture in my earlier posts to Bible2, and not just chapter and verse numbers.

Note that every scripture that was posted was addressed.

wyguy said:

The problem is, he twists Scripture to make it say what it doesn't mean to justify his beliefs that if one sins, until they repent, or don't do good works, they've lost their salvation.

How has it been proven that any scripture has been twisted?

Also, regarding the timing of the loss of salvation, what has been said is that salvation is lost for unrepentant sin, unrepentant laziness, or apostasy, only at the judgment of the church, at the second coming of Christ (Matthew 24:48-51, Matthew 25:26,30, Mark 8:35-38).

Also, regarding the loss of salvation in itself, many different verses in the the Bible show that a saved person can in the end lose his salvation if he wrongly employs his will to commit sin without repentance (Hebrews 10:26-29, 1 Corinthians 9:27, Matthew 24:48-51, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Galatians 5:19-21, 2 Peter 2:20-22, Romans 8:13, 1 John 5:16, James 5:19-20).

Another way that a saved person can in the end lose his salvation is if he wrongly employs his will to become utterly lazy without repentance (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Philippians 2:12, 2 Corinthians 5:9, Revelation 22:14, Hebrews 5:9, 2 Peter 1:10-11, Hebrews 6:10-12, Philippians 3:11-14).

Another way that a saved person can in the end lose his salvation is if he wrongly employs his will to commit apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6, 2 Timothy 2:12, Mark 8:35-38, Matthew 24:9-13, Colossians 1:23, Hebrews 3:6,14, Matthew 13:21, Luke 8:13, 1 Timothy 4:1, 2 Thessalonians 2:3, Hebrews 10:38-39, 2 Timothy 4:3-4).

Another way that a saved person can in the end lose his salvation is if he wrongly employs his will to not help a Christian in need, without repentance (Matthew 25:41-46).

Another way that a saved person can in the end lose his salvation is if he wrongly employs his will to not provide for his own family, without repentance (1 Timothy 5:8).

Another way that a saved person can in the end lose his salvation is if he wrongly employs his will to commit the unforgivable sin, which is blaspheming the Holy Spirit (Mark 3:29). An example of blaspheming the Holy Spirit is saying that an act performed by the power of the Holy Spirit is performed by Satan (Mark 3:22-30).

Another way that a saved person can in the end lose his salvation is if he wrongly employs his will to remove words from the text of the book of Revelation, and then publishes the altered text as if it were the original, without repentance (Revelation 22:19).

A saved person can in the end be cut off the same as an unbeliever if he doesn't continue in God's goodness (Romans 11:20-22, Luke 12:45-46). A saved person can in the end have his name blotted out of the book of life if he doesn't overcome unto the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26).

wyguy said:

His is a works-righteousness religion that wants to claim credit for keeping themselves saved by their works - and thus robbing Christ of glory.

Regarding a works-righteousness religion, that's what the Bible itself teaches us (1 John 3:7, James 1:27).

Regarding being saved by our works, the Bible itself teaches that our ultimate salvation (as opposed to our initial salvation: Ephesians 2:8-9) will depend on our works (Romans 2:6-8, Hebrews 5:9, James 2:24, Philippians 2:12, Revelation 22:14, 2 Corinthians 5:9, 2 Peter 1:10-11, Hebrews 6:10-12, Philippians 3:11-14, Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).

Regarding claiming credit, obedient Christians must stay so humble that they never give themselves any credit (Luke 17:10). But at the judgment of the church, at the second coming, Jesus will give them some credit (Matthew 25:21).

Regarding robbing Christ of glory, our ultimate salvation (as opposed to our initial salvation: Ephesians 2:8-9) being based on our works (e.g. Romans 2:6-8, Hebrews 5:9, James 2:24) in no way robs Christ of glory, for our works could never save us apart from our continued faith in Christ (John 3:36) and his sacrifice on the Cross for our sins (Romans 3:25).

Also, Romans 8:29-31 shows that all of the elect are glorified at some point during their lifetime just as they are justified at some point during their lifetime. In Romans 8:30, Paul uses the exact same verb-tense for "glorified" that he does for "justified" and "called". He doesn't say "whom he justified, them he also will glorify". Instead, Paul says: "whom he justified, them he also glorified", because the glory he is speaking of isn't something in the future, but a present and ongoing reality for those who have been saved (2 Corinthians 3:18, John 17:22, 1 Peter 4:14). But believers already being glorified doesn't mean they've been turned into robots; they can still wrongly employ their will to the ultimate loss of their salvation (e.g. Matthew 24:48-51, Matthew 25:26,30, Mark 8:35-38).

Besides the present glorification of believers, there will also be a future glorification of believers at their resurrection at the second coming of Christ (1 Peter 5:1,4, Philippians 3:20-21, 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,43, Romans 8:17-25, 2 Corinthians 4:17, Colossians 3:4, Colossians 1:27). But this future glory will be dependent on believers having continued in the faith (Colossians 1:23, Hebrews 3:6,14), and having patiently continued in good works and obedience (Romans 2:6-8, Hebrews 5:9), and having continued to repent from every sin they might have committed (Hebrews 10:26-29, 1 Corinthians 9:27, Matthew 24:48-51).

wyguy said:

Christ saved them, but now, it's up to THEM to keep themselves saved.

Again, it's the Bible itself which shows that our ultimate salvation (as opposed to our initial salvation: Ephesians 2:8-9) will depend on our works (Romans 2:6-8, Hebrews 5:9, James 2:24, Philippians 2:12, Revelation 22:14, 2 Corinthians 5:9, 2 Peter 1:10-11, Hebrews 6:10-12, Philippians 3:11-14, Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).

wyguy said:

It's the same heresy that cults like the Mormons teach.

What has been said isn't heresy, or a cultish teaching, or Mormonism, but what the Bible itself shows.

How has what's been said been proven wrong?

[OneLight]

OneLight said:

People read from many different places where a bible is not available.

Actually, anyone who has access to this forum also has access to a free online Bible with a quick-search function, for example at Bible Gateway.

Also, many who read this forum probably also have quick-search Bible software on their PC hard drive, for example, downloaded free from Theophilos.

OneLight said:

You also have so many references that in order to look them all up, one would forget the reason why they are looking . . .

Actually, the online Bible at Bible Gateway lets you look up multiple references at the same time.

For example, let's say you read the following comment in a post:

"Those who are truly saved can in the end lose their salvation is if they wrongly employ their will to commit sin without repentance (Hebrews 10:26-29, 1 Corinthians 9:27, Matthew 24:48-51, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Galatians 5:19-21, 2 Peter 2:20-22, Romans 8:13, 1 John 5:16, James 5:19-20)."

It's very easy to quickly look up all of these references. All you have to do is copy the whole list of references (just as it is, but without the parentheses) and past it into the Bible Gateway quick-search box, and Bible Gateway will instantly quote you all of those references together on a single page, in any translation you like, and in either a column or a row, as you like. Click here to see for yourself. Note that Bible Gateway also has links so you can listen to each passage read out loud, if you want.

OneLight said:

. . . yet, to read them in your posts would keep the flow of your words moving.

Actually, it could be the opposite. For to make someone read quotes of what all of the references in the post say could make someone forget the points that were made in the post regarding what those references mean.

Yes, I often use biblegateway while online, but not when I have only 10 to 15 minutes for a break. Not only is it the place I was referring to, but due to certain places like work, timing is the issue. Not everyone who is reading your posts have to time to look up the scriptures. By including the scriptures into your posts, I would get a better understanding then if I had to continuously look up a passage, return to your post for the next ... continuing to the end. You mentioned that if you included scripture in your post, one would loose focus of what you are trying to say. This is an odd statement if what you are saying is scriptural. By including scripture, you would be reinforcing your statement! If they get a different idea from scripture, I have to ask, which should they follow, your statements or scripture? Something to consider.

OneLight said:

If His words are important enough to reference, then they will be far more effective to read. Cut and paste.

Tell me. which speaks louder to you while you are working and on a break?

Matthew 4:4

or

But He answered and said,

[Jedi4Yahweh]

You guys are being ridicules please get back to the topic before it gets closed.

[OneLight]

You guys are being ridicules please get back to the topic before it gets closed.

Yes, it has been sidetracked a few time, but this is not ridicules. Maybe it is time for another thread on what is proper etiquette for online teaching.

[Guest]

There Is No Doubt

But without faith it is impossible to please him:

for he that cometh to God must believe that he is,

and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. Hebrews 11:6

Jesus Saves

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. John 6:47

>>>>>()<<<<<

.... Another way that a saved person can in the end lose his salvation....

Bless You!

May The LORD Shine His Face Upon You And Give You Peace.

But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; Matthew 5:44

Blindness

But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. 2 Corinthians 4:3-4

Is No Defense For Refusing To Know God

For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.

For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. 2 Corinthians 4:5-6

So Dear One Believe

Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. Revelation 3:20

And Be Blessed

And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? John 11:26

Or Not

And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:

And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.

Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

For many are called, but few are chosen. Matthew 22:11-14

>>>>>()<<<<<

.... is if he wrongly employs his will to not help a Christian in need, without repentance (Matthew 25:41-4....

What Does The Jew And Israel Have To Do With Their KING's Coming Judgement Upon The Nations?

When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Matthew 25:31-22

Everything!

And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. Matthew 25:40-46

And What Does His Coming Judgement Have To Do With Those Proud Wolves Who Know Not God But With Their Rules And Traditions

But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.

And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ. Matthew 23:8-10

Beat Upon The Faith Of The Born Again

Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,

According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Peter 1:1-8

Child Of Grace?

And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. Galatians 4:8

Everything!

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Matthew 7:21-23

>>>>>()<<<<<

The Will Of The Father

Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. John 6:29

Believe

For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day. 2 Timothy 1:12

And Be Blessed Beloved

For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. Romans 10:11

Love, Joe

[Jedi4Yahweh]

You guys are being ridicules please get back to the topic before it gets closed.

Yes, it has been sidetracked a few time, but this is not ridicules. Maybe it is time for another thread on what is proper etiquette for online teaching.

Yes differently a different thread. Besides, we are not here to online teach but to have an open-ended online discussion about a topic. Online teaching sounds more like your only here to lecture others instead of participate in an open discussion. We are not here to teach but to openly discuss and exchange views about our faith and doctrine so that we can learn and grow from each other. I learn from the youngest and most inexperienced Christians and even from those who I disagree with. If your just here to online teach then I would say that you're defeating the purpose of a discussion forum.

[Massorite]

My wife opened up the Bible on Saturday morning. God guided her hand to Nehemiah 8:16-9:3. It speaks of the Feast of Tabernacles and the reading of the law. I think God is communicating the very nearness of the Rapture. Even if not this directly, he may be speaking of Ezekiel 37, the re-uniting of the house of Judah and the house of Israel, which precedes Ezekiel 38 & 39. Let us read the words of the Lord and do them; let us also confess our sins before the Lord. It may be he will be gracious and forgive our sins.

The house of Isreal is not reunited. Not even close. They have a secular government and a deeply divided country between the various religions, sects and the like. As for asking for forgivness of my sins that is something I do daily but there is no "maybe" about it. Jesus shed his grace on all 2000 years ago so all I need to do is ask and my sins are forgiven.

[Bible2]

OneLight said:

Yes, I often use biblegateway while online, but not when I have only 10 to 15 minutes for a break. Not only is it the place I was referring to, but due to certain places like work, timing is the issue. Not everyone who is reading your posts have to time to look up the scriptures. By including the scriptures into your posts, I would get a better understanding then if I had to continuously look up a passage, return to your post for the next ... continuing to the end.

Why not use Bible Gateway even during a 5-minute break, when Bible Gateway gives instant results even for long lists of scriptures? (They don't have to be looked up one at a time.)

Also, to make someone take the time to read long lists of quotations imbedded in a post could make him forget (or never take the time to get to) the points that were made in the post regarding what those quotations mean.

OneLight said:

You mentioned that if you included scripture in your post, one would loose focus of what you are trying to say. This is an odd statement if what you are saying is scriptural.

Actually, it isn't an odd statement. For we all already agree on what the Bible says; where we differ is in what it means.

OneLight said:

By including scripture, you would be reinforcing your statement!

By including long lists of related references, the statements preceding the references are reinforced.

The reason that so many different verses are referenced after stating major points is to show how much the Bible supports those points, so that no one will think that those points are being based on just what one verse says. For even when what one verse says appears plain on its face, it can still be misinterpreted, such as by reading into it things that it doesn't say. In order to avoid any misinterpretation, every verse in the Bible must be read in the context of (qualified by) all the rest of the Bible. In order to arrive at correct doctrine, a verse in one place in the Bible must be compared with (qualified by) other, related verses elsewhere in the Bible (Isaiah 28:9-10, 1 Corinthians 2:13, 2 Timothy 3:16, Matthew 4:4).

There should be no need to give quotations in replies to a discussion like this one, where all of the people who have posted clearly already know what the Bible says. The point of the discussion is to get at what the Bible actually means. That's why verses haven't just been referenced, but referenced in connection with statements regarding what those verses mean.

Also, just giving references allows the reader to more easily move past any statements which he already agrees with, and focus on any subsequent statements which he may have a problem with, instead of him having to search through long lists of quotations to find the next statement by the poster and see if he agrees with it or not. This saves the reader a lot of time.

Also, just giving references allows the reader to keep different posts as summary reference guides to the proof texts of positions he agrees with or disagrees with, instead of him having to keep (for reference) posts with such long lists of quotations that they're like mini-Bibles in themselves. We all already have complete Bibles, what do we need with mini-Bibles?

OneLight said:

If they get a different idea from scripture, I have to ask, which should they follow, your statements or scripture? Something to consider.

Indeed. And that's what this discussion is for. If a reader feels that a scripture reference following a statement doesn't support the statement, then he needs to chime into the discussion and give his proof for why the reference doesn't support the statement.

OneLight said:

You are assuming that only Christians are reading these posts. A bad assumption, to say the least. As I write this reply, there are 19 members on this board, and 91 guests! Never assume that a guest is a Christian.

No such assumption has been made.

What has been posted are specific replies to Christian posters who already know what the Bible says; what we're discussing is what it means.

Also, any non-Christian readers have just as much access to Bible Gateway's free instant-multiple-search service as any of the Christian posters to whom the posts have been addressed.

OneLight said:

So, yes, there is a reason why many here include scripture in their posts. By doing so, the focus is on His words, not ours.

But we all already agree on what his word says; the purpose of this forum is to discuss what it means.

OneLight said:

When it comes to an understanding of what a verse "means", I am positive that the Holy Spirit will do a much better job at this then any man. He teaches us the truth of God.

Of course the Holy Spirit teaches Christians directly (1 John 2:27) through his word (2 Timothy 3:16), but he at the same time also works through human teachers of his word (Acts 18:11, Colossians 3:16, 2 Timothy 2:2,24, Hebrews 5:12).

OneLight said:

Yes, you are new here, but not new to forums in general, I believe. How many false teachers have you come across in your online discussions?

Haven't kept track.

OneLight said:

Those whom I have come across do what you are doing, make statements and just point to supporting scripture.

False teachers can give quotations or just references, just as true teachers can give quotations or just references.

What matters isn't whether they give quotations or just references, but whether their statements preceding or following the quotations or references are supported by what the scriptures quoted or referenced say. And that's what discussion is for.

OneLight said:

If a person, let's say a young Christina who does not recognize false teachings, does not take the time to look up the scriptures, they will not see that the scripture they are pointing to is being twisted by the poster. If the scripture was included in the post, then it would expose their twisting.

Not necessarily, for even quotations of scriptures can be twisted, without Christians, whether young or old, realizing it. For (as was pointed out earlier) even when what one verse says appears plain on its face, it can still be misinterpreted, such as by reading into it things that it doesn't say. In order to avoid any misinterpretation, every verse in the Bible must be read in the context of (qualified by) all the rest of the Bible. In order to arrive at correct doctrine, a verse in one place in the Bible must be compared with (qualified by) other, related verses elsewhere in the Bible (Isaiah 28:9-10, 1 Corinthians 2:13, 2 Timothy 3:16, Matthew 4:4).

So all Christians, whether old or young (2 Timothy 3:15), must be diligent in actually reading every word of the Bible (Mathew 4:4, 2 Timothy 3:16) for themselves (2 Timothy 3:15), in a good translation (or in its original languages), over and over and over again. Christians must never trust what anyone says about the Bible, even if he's claiming to be giving quotations of it; everything said and quoted must always be checked by actually searching the Bible itself (Acts 17:11), in a good translation (or in its original languages), in order to avoid being deceived by an incorrect interpretation or translation.

(Continued)

[Bible2]

(Continued)

OneLight said:

It is about clarity in teaching, not if one is hearing my words.

The clarity in teaching comes in the clarity of the explanation regarding what the scriptures (whether quoted or referenced) mean.

OneLight said:

The focus should always be on God, not us.

Of course, that's why the statements we make should be followed by references to God's word. We must never be saying, in effect, "What I'm saying is true because I'm saying it", but must always be saying, in effect, "What I'm saying is true because it's supported by God's word".

OneLight said:

When I use to teach, even in college, I taught to the least of the class. Those who were ahead would approach me afterward for deeper discussions, which I always welcomed.

What has been posted here aren't lectures to a class, but (like your post-class discussions) specific replies to individual Christians who already know what the Bible says; what we're discussing is what it means.

OneLight said:

One thing I always do when I write is to look at what I wrote to see if the person reading will receive the message I was bring forth, or if I was unclear.

As was pointed out earlier, the clarity in teaching comes in the clarity of the explanation regarding what the scriptures (whether quoted or referenced) mean.

OneLight said:

One lesson I have learned by checking my words is that I assumed others were thinking the same way I was. It was clear to me what I was trying to say, but stepping back and reading my words as if I had never read them before, they were confusing.

Note that that's true regardless of whether one quotes a scripture or just references it.

OneLight said:

That is why it is important to include His words when talking about what He says.

But, as was pointed out earler, to make someone take the time to read long lists of quotations imbedded in a post could make him forget (or never take the time to get to) the points that were made in the post regarding what those quotations mean.

OneLight said:

Note that there was a lot less confusion when they had to quote the scripture itself then there is today! Is there a reason for this? I would say the reason is that they spoke Gods words by quoting them. The hearer walked away with what God said, not the understanding of man.

But even quotations of scriptures can be misunderstood. For (as was pointed out earlier) even when what one verse says appears plain on its face, it can still be misinterpreted, such as by reading into it things that it doesn't say. In order to avoid any misinterpretation, every verse in the Bible must be read in the context of (qualified by) all the rest of the Bible. In order to arrive at correct doctrine, a verse in one place in the Bible must be compared with (qualified by) other, related verses elsewhere in the Bible (Isaiah 28:9-10, 1 Corinthians 2:13, 2 Timothy 3:16, Matthew 4:4).

OneLight said:

I am very familiar with the many versions of the bible that is available online and off. This is not the issue that I am speaking of. When a seeker comes here, they read the posts. Do you think they are Bereans that will return to a bible, which they may not have, to research what you say to see if it lines up with Gods word or not? Let's be real here. They will not take the time. They take our words and contemplate what we are saying, as they are taught all through their school years. Anyone can take their thoughts and post them online, whether or not they are right, throw their favorite bible verse references in their, and let the reader do what they want with it. A teach will leave the discussion knowing that they provided all the student needed to come to the proper understanding.

Actually, anyone who has these posts has a Bible at Bible Gateway, and it gives instant results even for long lists of scriptures.

Also, as was pointed out earlier, Christians must never trust what anyone says about the Bible, even if he's claiming to be giving quotations of it; everything said and quoted must always be checked by actually searching the Bible itself (Acts 17:11), in a good translation (or in its original languages), in order to avoid being deceived by an incorrect interpretation or translation.

[Bible2]

FresnoJoe said:

There Is No Doubt

But without faith it is impossible to please him:

for he that cometh to God must believe that he is,

and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. Hebrews 11:6

Amen.

But initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only "if" they continue to believe unto the end (Hebrews 3:6,14, Colossians 1:23), and there's no assurance that they will choose to do that (1 Timothy 4:1, 2 Thessalonians 2:3, Matthew 24:9-13, Luke 8:13, John 15:6, Hebrews 6:4-8, 2 Timothy 2:12, Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 10:38-39, 2 Timothy 4:3-4).

FresnoJoe said:

Jesus Saves

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. John 6:47

Amen.

But initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they believe and also patiently continue in good works and obedience unto the end (Romans 2:6-8, Hebrews 5:9, James 2:24, Revelation 22:14, Philippians 2:12, 2 Corinthians 5:9, 2 Peter 1:10-11, Hebrews 6:10-12, Philippians 3:11-14), and there's no assurance that they will choose to do that (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).

FresnoJoe said:

Bless You!

May The LORD Shine His Face Upon You And Give You Peace.

But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; Matthew 5:44

Amen.

But who has cursed you, hated you, despitefully used you, or persecuted you?

FresnoJoe said:

Blindness

But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. 2 Corinthians 4:3-4

Who believes not, and how has it been proven that he believes not?

FresnoJoe said:

Is No Defense For Refusing To Know God

For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.

For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. 2 Corinthians 4:5-6

Who's refusing to know God, and how has it been proven that he's refusing to know God?

FresnoJoe said:

So Dear One Believe

Who isn't believing, and how has it been proven that he isn't believing?

FresnoJoe said:

Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. Revelation 3:20

Note that Revelation 3:20 wasn't addressing unbelievers, but people who were already saved, who were already part of the church (Revelation 3:14, Revelation 3:22). But after entering into initial salvation by faith alone (Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5), those addressed in Revelation 3:20 had became so lukewarm in their works (Revelation 3:15-16) that they were in danger of ultimately losing their salvation (Revelation 3:16). For those who have been initially saved can ultimately lose their salvation on account of unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Philippians 2:12, Revelation 22:14, 2 Corinthians 5:9, 2 Peter 1:10-11, Hebrews 6:10-12, Philippians 3:11-14, Hebrews 5:9).

Those addressed in Revelation 3:20 had also become so shamefully sinful (Revelation 3:17-18) that they were warned that they needed to repent (Revelation 3:19). For those who have been initially saved can ultimately lose their salvation on account of unrepentant sinfulness (Hebrews 10:26-29, 1 Corinthians 9:27, Matthew 24:48-51, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Galatians 5:19-21, 2 Peter 2:20-22, Romans 8:13, 1 John 5:16, James 5:19-20, Hebrews 5:9).

The immediate context of Revelation 3:20 also shows that initially saved people can fail to obtain ultimate salvation by failing to overcome (Revelation 3:21-22). For those who have been initially saved can ultimately have their names blotted out of the book of life if they don't overcome (Revelation 3:5). An example of not overcoming would be failing to be willing to be killed for Jesus and his gospel (Revelation 12:11), and instead committing apostasy to avoid getting killed (Mark 8:35-38, Matthew 24:9-13). Those who have been initially saved can ultimately lose their salvation on account of committing apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6, 2 Timothy 2:12, Colossians 1:23, Hebrews 3:6,14, Matthew 13:21, Luke 8:13, 1 Timothy 4:1, 2 Thessalonians 2:3, Hebrews 10:38-39, 2 Timothy 4:3-4).

So the shut door in Revelation 3:20, separating the initially-saved people from Jesus, can represent the danger those people were in of ultimately losing their salvation. Their hearing Jesus' knockings, his warnings to them (Revelation 3:19, Revelation 3:16), and getting up to open the door to him can then represent them repenting from their laziness and sinfulness and entering back into an ultimately-saving relationship with Jesus.

Jesus' eating in Revelation 3:20 can represent his obedience to God the Father, his doing good works for the Father (John 4:34). The people in Revelation 3:20 eating with Jesus can then represent them having real fellowship with Jesus (and God the Father) by their obedience to Jesus (John 14:21,23, John 12:26). For initially saved people must keep themselves in the love of God (Jude 1:21) by continuing to obey him (John 14:21,23). Those who have been initially saved can ultimately lose their salvation on account of not continuing in God's goodness (Romans 11:20-22, Luke 12:45-46).

FresnoJoe said:

And Be Blessed

And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? John 11:26

Amen.

But in the full context of the New Testament, retaining our eternal life (John 11:26) will be ultimately conditional on our continued belief (John 15:6, Colossians 1:23, Hebrews 3:6,14), our continued good works and obedience (John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8, Hebrews 5:9), and our continued repentance from any sin that we might commit (Matthew 24:48-51, Hebrews 10:26-29, 1 Corinthians 9:27).

FresnoJoe said:

Or Not

And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:

And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.

Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

For many are called, but few are chosen. Matthew 22:11-14

>>>>>()<<<<<

The wedding garment in Matthew 22:12 represents the righteousness of believers (Revelation 19:8), which is conditional not only on their continued belief (Romans 3:22) but also on their continued doing of righteous deeds (1 John 3:7, James 2:24). That's why some believers will end up suffering the same fate as the unrighteous unbeliever in Matthew 22:13, because of their unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30) or their unrepentant sinfulness (Luke 12:45-46).

The statement in Matthew 22:14 refers to election. The elect are those individuals who were chosen (elected) by God before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4-11), before they were even born (Romans 9:11-24), to become initially saved at some point during their lifetime.

Everyone on his own is wholly corrupt (Romans 3:9-12), and so it's impossible for anyone on his own to ever believe in Jesus and be initially saved through his own will (Romans 9:16, John 1:13, John 6:65) or through his own intellect (1 Corinthians 1:18-2:16). Unsaved people can't possibly understand the gospel (1 Corinthians 2:14, 1 Corinthians 1:18) because only initially saved people, who have received the miraculous gift of some measure of God's own Spirit, can understand it (1 Corinthians 2:11-14). The unelect can't possibly believe in Jesus and be initially saved, even when they're shown the truth (John 6:65, John 8:42-47, John 10:26, Matthew 13:38-42), because initial faith comes only to the elect (Acts 13:48) wholly by God's grace as a miraculous gift from God (Ephesians 2:8, John 6:65, 1 Corinthians 3:5), just as initial repentance comes only as a miraculous gift from God (2 Timothy 2:25, Acts 11:18).

All unsaved people, whether elect or unelect, are like people who don't even know that they're blind in both eyes (they can neither see any need to believe, nor see any need to repent). When God miraculously grants elect people the gifts of faith (Ephesians 2:8, John 6:65, 1 Corinthians 3:5) and repentance (2 Timothy 2:25, Acts 11:18) it's like they can suddenly see in both eyes. Repentance and faith initially don't involve the will, just as if a blind man is miraculously given sight by Jesus, both his eyes will automatically see without his will having to be involved. But miraculously giving a blind man his sight also doesn't take away his free will. So he can subsequently wrongly employ his will to blind himself, such as by staring at the sun for too long.

In the same way, once repentance and faith are miraculously received by a person, he still has the same free will that he had before he got saved, and so he can in the end lose his salvation if he wrongly employs his will to, for example, commit sin without repentance (Hebrews 10:26-29, 1 Corinthians 9:27, Matthew 24:48-51, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Galatians 5:19-21, 2 Peter 2:20-22, Romans 8:13, 1 John 5:16, James 5:19-20).

FresnoJoe said:

What Does The Jew And Israel Have To Do With Their KING's Coming Judgement Upon The Nations?

Regarding your reference to "The Jew", all Christians, no matter whether they're genetic Jews (Acts 22:3) or genetic Gentiles (Romans 16:4), have become spiritual Jews if they've undergone the spiritual circumcision of baptism into Christ (Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-12).

Regarding your reference to "Israel", the entire church is Israel (Revelation 21:9,12), because all genetic Jews in the church remain Israel (Romans 11:1), and all genetic Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29). This is necessary because the entire church is saved only by the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28, 1 Corinthians 11:25, 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), and the New Covenant is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34). John 10:16 refers to the "other sheep" of genetic-Gentile Christians being brought into "this fold" of Israel, which is the same as the "one fold" of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13, Ephesians 4:4-6, Revelation 21:9,12).

Regarding your reference to "their King", "the king" in Matthew 25:34 is Jesus, who's the King of everyone (Revelation 19:16), including all Christians (Revelation 15:3), regardless of whether they're genetic Jews or genetic Gentiles.

(Continued)