MorningGlory Posted October 27, 2010 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1,022 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 39,193 Content Per Day: 6.08 Reputation: 9,977 Days Won: 78 Joined: 10/01/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted October 27, 2010 I am sorry MorningGlory, I just wanted to stress the fact that we are humble people. Maybe I chose the wrong words.... No need to be sorry but I have to say that I've interacted with many, many atheists and I can only point to two and say they are humble people. Maybe you are one of those exceptions as well. I was also a Christian, so I understand your feelings very well. But why are you showing the Israeli flag then? Do not understand me wrong, I love the people of Israel (I have many friends there) and I am also active in several organizations that fight antisemitism. I display the Israeli flag whenever I feel it's necessary; like when Israel is under even stonger attack than usual. I think that Israel is a very important bastion against Islamic fundamentalism. But it is a fact that they also deny your Messiah....And I would not call their beliefs coming straight from satan. You're confusing two issues here, Treesong. Yes, most Jews do deny Jesus, the Messiah, and will until they see the light. But the 'straight from satan himself' remark was about the following, which is from your earlier post and has nothing to do with the Jews. "Now I believe that we are not so important; I believe we are just one product of evolution, with a very limited life span and living in a quite average part of the universe. " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorningGlory Posted October 27, 2010 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1,022 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 39,193 Content Per Day: 6.08 Reputation: 9,977 Days Won: 78 Joined: 10/01/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted October 27, 2010 Why are we even debating this topic? Atheists don't even exist. The bible does not acknowledge atheism nor agnosticism, this is what the scripture says: For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools...2 Romans 1. So brothers and sisters, lets not debate on this. Men won't come to God because you give them a good logical argument or you try to prove to them God exists. men only get saved once they understand that they are under the wrath of God, and the gravity of their sin against a holy god leads them to true, genuine repentance and they fall upon the cross of Jesus Christ. Peace and Grace be with you! I disagree strongly with your remarks above, Ebwly. It's important to give atheists and agnostics opportunities to read the opinions of Christians, to be exposed to Scripture, and to express their feelings. Some of them are searching, some are confused and then, of course, some have hearts so hardened they are unreachable. But we can't pretend they don't exist. This paragraph... For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools...2 Romans 1. ...is all about what God will do; not us. We are not the judges of unbelievers. Oh, welcome to Worthy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
josephine tomczuk Posted October 27, 2010 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 11 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 169 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 21 Days Won: 3 Joined: 10/04/2010 Status: Offline Share Posted October 27, 2010 Why are we even debating this topic? Atheists don't even exist. The bible does not acknowledge atheism nor agnosticism, this is what the scripture says: For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools...2 Romans 1. So brothers and sisters, lets not debate on this. Men won't come to God because you give them a good logical argument or you try to prove to them God exists. men only get saved once they understand that they are under the wrath of God, and the gravity of their sin against a holy god leads them to true, genuine repentance and they fall upon the cross of Jesus Christ. Peace and Grace be with you! I disagree strongly with your remarks above, Ebwly. It's important to give atheists and agnostics opportunities to read the opinions of Christians, to be exposed to Scripture, and to express their feelings. Some of them are searching, some are confused and then, of course, some have hearts so hardened they are unreachable. But we can't pretend they don't exist. This paragraph... For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools...2 Romans 1. ...is all about what God will do; not us. We are not the judges of unbelievers. Oh, welcome to Worthy! u're both right. don't fight:emot-highfive: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorningGlory Posted October 27, 2010 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1,022 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 39,193 Content Per Day: 6.08 Reputation: 9,977 Days Won: 78 Joined: 10/01/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted October 27, 2010 Why are we even debating this topic? Atheists don't even exist. The bible does not acknowledge atheism nor agnosticism, this is what the scripture says: For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools...2 Romans 1. So brothers and sisters, lets not debate on this. Men won't come to God because you give them a good logical argument or you try to prove to them God exists. men only get saved once they understand that they are under the wrath of God, and the gravity of their sin against a holy god leads them to true, genuine repentance and they fall upon the cross of Jesus Christ. Peace and Grace be with you! I disagree strongly with your remarks above, Ebwly. It's important to give atheists and agnostics opportunities to read the opinions of Christians, to be exposed to Scripture, and to express their feelings. Some of them are searching, some are confused and then, of course, some have hearts so hardened they are unreachable. But we can't pretend they don't exist. This paragraph... For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools...2 Romans 1. ...is all about what God will do; not us. We are not the judges of unbelievers. Oh, welcome to Worthy! u're both right. don't fight:emot-highfive: No fighting going on, Josephine; just animated discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
josephine tomczuk Posted October 27, 2010 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 11 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 169 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 21 Days Won: 3 Joined: 10/04/2010 Status: Offline Share Posted October 27, 2010 amos3v3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ebwly Posted October 28, 2010 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 15 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 2 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/26/2010 Status: Offline Share Posted October 28, 2010 Why are we even debating this topic? Atheists don't even exist. The bible does not acknowledge atheism nor agnosticism, this is what the scripture says: For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools...2 Romans 1. So brothers and sisters, lets not debate on this. Men won't come to God because you give them a good logical argument or you try to prove to them God exists. men only get saved once they understand that they are under the wrath of God, and the gravity of their sin against a holy god leads them to true, genuine repentance and they fall upon the cross of Jesus Christ. Peace and Grace be with you! I disagree strongly with your remarks above, Ebwly. It's important to give atheists and agnostics opportunities to read the opinions of Christians, to be exposed to Scripture, and to express their feelings. Some of them are searching, some are confused and then, of course, some have hearts so hardened they are unreachable. But we can't pretend they don't exist. This paragraph... For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools...2 Romans 1. ...is all about what God will do; not us. We are not the judges of unbelievers. Oh, welcome to Worthy! u're both right. don't fight:emot-highfive: No fighting going on, Josephine; just animated discussion. When a person tells you they are an atheist, or an agnostic, you have to do one thing believe, them, or believe in the world of God. Scripture says that there are no atheists or agnostics. I believe in scripture as the infallible word of God. Human opinion will always come second. Although I agree with you that we should treat unbelievers with love and compassion just as our Lord Jesus commanded us to do, and we should guide them from their ignorance. Peace and Grace be with you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorningGlory Posted October 28, 2010 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1,022 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 39,193 Content Per Day: 6.08 Reputation: 9,977 Days Won: 78 Joined: 10/01/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted October 28, 2010 Why are we even debating this topic? Atheists don't even exist. The bible does not acknowledge atheism nor agnosticism, this is what the scripture says: For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools...2 Romans 1. So brothers and sisters, lets not debate on this. Men won't come to God because you give them a good logical argument or you try to prove to them God exists. men only get saved once they understand that they are under the wrath of God, and the gravity of their sin against a holy god leads them to true, genuine repentance and they fall upon the cross of Jesus Christ. Peace and Grace be with you! I disagree strongly with your remarks above, Ebwly. It's important to give atheists and agnostics opportunities to read the opinions of Christians, to be exposed to Scripture, and to express their feelings. Some of them are searching, some are confused and then, of course, some have hearts so hardened they are unreachable. But we can't pretend they don't exist. This paragraph... For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools...2 Romans 1. ...is all about what God will do; not us. We are not the judges of unbelievers. Oh, welcome to Worthy! u're both right. don't fight:emot-highfive: No fighting going on, Josephine; just animated discussion. When a person tells you they are an atheist, or an agnostic, you have to do one thing believe, them, or believe in the world of God. Scripture says that there are no atheists or agnostics. I believe in scripture as the infallible word of God. Human opinion will always come second. Although I agree with you that we should treat unbelievers with love and compassion just as our Lord Jesus commanded us to do, and we should guide them from their ignorance. Peace and Grace be with you! Can you post the passage that says there are no atheists or agnostics? I can't find it.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest treesong Posted October 28, 2010 Share Posted October 28, 2010 Why are we even debating this topic? Atheists don't even exist. The bible does not acknowledge atheism nor agnosticism, this is what the scripture says: For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools...2 Romans 1. So brothers and sisters, lets not debate on this. Men won't come to God because you give them a good logical argument or you try to prove to them God exists. men only get saved once they understand that they are under the wrath of God, and the gravity of their sin against a holy god leads them to true, genuine repentance and they fall upon the cross of Jesus Christ. Peace and Grace be with you! I disagree strongly with your remarks above, Ebwly. It's important to give atheists and agnostics opportunities to read the opinions of Christians, to be exposed to Scripture, and to express their feelings. Some of them are searching, some are confused and then, of course, some have hearts so hardened they are unreachable. But we can't pretend they don't exist. This paragraph... For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools...2 Romans 1. ...is all about what God will do; not us. We are not the judges of unbelievers. Oh, welcome to Worthy! u're both right. don't fight:emot-highfive: No fighting going on, Josephine; just animated discussion. When a person tells you they are an atheist, or an agnostic, you have to do one thing believe, them, or believe in the world of God. Scripture says that there are no atheists or agnostics. I believe in scripture as the infallible word of God. Human opinion will always come second. Although I agree with you that we should treat unbelievers with love and compassion just as our Lord Jesus commanded us to do, and we should guide them from their ignorance. Peace and Grace be with you! Can you post the passage that says there are no atheists or agnostics? I can't find it.... I do not thing that such a passage exists. What exists is that atheists are fools, which is different than saying that they do not exists. I prefer to be a fool than not existing... Basically there are 4 types of non-theistic beliefs: 1) Deists, pantheists, etc. -> They are clearly religious or spiritual somehow 2) Agnostics -> they leave the question open. I do not understand how, though, one can be so busy as to leave that open. This will automatically mean that one is agnostic on Christianity, Buddhism, Islam, Zeus, Aliens, etc.etc. That is a bit too easy and just a way to dodge important existential question. 3) New atheists. They are usually pretty shrill and confrontational. But do not make the mistake to dismiss them too early. Contrarily to agnostics, they take your beliefs very seriously (otherwise they will not be so happy to debate). They usually leave in societies where religion has a too strong effect on civil life. The main reason of their renewed existence is the growing influence of Islam (at least here in Europe) which tries to influence our culture too much. Christianity here is too soft and "tolerant" against primitive customs and ideas (e.g. Sharia laws and burkas). 4) Post-atheists. These ones are the fastest growing kind of atheism, mainly in central and North Europe. They usually leave in societies where religious ethics does not influence the legal and social system. For them, belief in a deity is completely irrelevant. They will never debate or talk about that: for them is as irrelevant as debating about alien abductions. I belong to 3) but I am not so shrill nor confrontational... I hope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ebwly Posted October 28, 2010 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 15 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 2 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/26/2010 Status: Offline Share Posted October 28, 2010 (edited) Why are we even debating this topic? Atheists don't even exist. The bible does not acknowledge atheism nor agnosticism, this is what the scripture says: For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools...2 Romans 1. So brothers and sisters, lets not debate on this. Men won't come to God because you give them a good logical argument or you try to prove to them God exists. men only get saved once they understand that they are under the wrath of God, and the gravity of their sin against a holy god leads them to true, genuine repentance and they fall upon the cross of Jesus Christ. Peace and Grace be with you! I disagree strongly with your remarks above, Ebwly. It's important to give atheists and agnostics opportunities to read the opinions of Christians, to be exposed to Scripture, and to express their feelings. Some of them are searching, some are confused and then, of course, some have hearts so hardened they are unreachable. But we can't pretend they don't exist. This paragraph... For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools...2 Romans 1. ...is all about what God will do; not us. We are not the judges of unbelievers. Oh, welcome to Worthy! u're both right. don't fight:emot-highfive: No fighting going on, Josephine; just animated discussion. When a person tells you they are an atheist, or an agnostic, you have to do one thing believe, them, or believe in the world of God. Scripture says that there are no atheists or agnostics. I believe in scripture as the infallible word of God. Human opinion will always come second. Although I agree with you that we should treat unbelievers with love and compassion just as our Lord Jesus commanded us to do, and we should guide them from their ignorance. Peace and Grace be with you! Can you post the passage that says there are no atheists or agnostics? I can't find it.... I do not thing that such a passage exists. What exists is that atheists are fools, which is different than saying that they do not exists. I prefer to be a fool than not existing... Basically there are 4 types of non-theistic beliefs: 1) Deists, pantheists, etc. -> They are clearly religious or spiritual somehow 2) Agnostics -> they leave the question open. I do not understand how, though, one can be so busy as to leave that open. This will automatically mean that one is agnostic on Christianity, Buddhism, Islam, Zeus, Aliens, etc.etc. That is a bit too easy and just a way to dodge important existential question. 3) New atheists. They are usually pretty shrill and confrontational. But do not make the mistake to dismiss them too early. Contrarily to agnostics, they take your beliefs very seriously (otherwise they will not be so happy to debate). They usually leave in societies where religion has a too strong effect on civil life. The main reason of their renewed existence is the growing influence of Islam (at least here in Europe) which tries to influence our culture too much. Christianity here is too soft and "tolerant" against primitive customs and ideas (e.g. Sharia laws and burkas). 4) Post-atheists. These ones are the fastest growing kind of atheism, mainly in central and North Europe. They usually leave in societies where religious ethics does not influence the legal and social system. For them, belief in a deity is completely irrelevant. They will never debate or talk about that: for them is as irrelevant as debating about alien abductions. I belong to 3) but I am not so shrill nor confrontational... I hope. Its here: For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools...2 Romans 1. Bolded Parts especially So when I mean that they don't exist, I mean that they do know God, they just don't seek him and they rebel against him. I know an atheist exists, I'm just saying, according to the bible, people who are atheists do believe in God, they just refuse to acknowledgment God. Edited October 28, 2010 by Ebwly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorningGlory Posted October 29, 2010 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1,022 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 39,193 Content Per Day: 6.08 Reputation: 9,977 Days Won: 78 Joined: 10/01/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted October 29, 2010 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools...2 Romans 1. Bolded Parts especially So when I mean that they don't exist, I mean that they do know God, they just don't seek him and they rebel against him. I know an atheist exists, I'm just saying, according to the bible, people who are atheists do believe in God, they just refuse to acknowledgment God. Okay, I see what you mean and I agree. Note that so many atheists will rebel against God and deny Him while at the same time saying He doesn't exist. Logic tells us that those actions are in direct contradiction to each other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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