johndavid316 Posted October 9, 2010 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 32 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/05/2010 Status: Offline Author Share Posted October 9, 2010 Your theory is wrong. God knows the beginning from the end due to God not being bound by time. He knows because He has already been there. A person does have a choice. Using your analogy, Joey was given a choice, which you call an option. Let's say if God knows a person loves the color blue, and presents this person with all the colors created and asks them to choose their favorite color, the person still has a choice. The choice is the free will, not the outcome. Omniscience means having infinite knowledge or understanding. God knew what the choice would be. Because He knew does not negate that fact that a person has a choice. Do you believe people have the free will to chose salvation? I'm going to walk you through this step by step. First of all, you say "God knows the beginning from the end due to God not being bound by time. He knows because He has already been there." That is fine. I can agree with that. However if God knows because he has already been there then the future is predetermined, which, in and of itself makes free will impossible. The next thing you say is "A person does have a choice." I am not arguing that, in fact, I agree with that. I am not arguing whether or not someone has a choice, I am arguing whether or not they can have free will with an omniscient god. "Let's say if God knows a person loves the color blue, and presents this person with all the colors created and asks them to choose their favorite color, the person still has a choice." This is true, the person does have a choice. However in order to have free will, he must be able to choose any of the choices according to his will. Since Joey's god is omniscient, he knows what Joey will choose and cannot be wrong. Even though Joey is given multiple choices, Joey can only choose one. That demonstrates that he does not have free will. It has nothing to do with the outcome from Joey's perspective. Joey thinks he has a choice, but he must necessarily chose a predetermined choice. Joey is experiencing an illusion of free will. "Omniscience means having infinite knowledge or understanding." I agree. "God knew what the choice would be." I agree "Because He knew does not negate that fact that a person has a choice." This is true, Joey had two choices. However in order for Joey's god to be omniscient, he must necessarily choose the choice that his god knew he would choose. Did that help you understand it better? And lastly, "Do you believe people have the free will to chose salvation?" I presented this argument that omniscience cannot coexist with free will as a way to explore a logical paradox. This is why I came up with a hypothetical universe. The Bible says that people have the free will to choose salvation, so I believe that they do. Obviously knowledge of God and His Word transcends the logic of man. But while we are still men, I find it interesting to discuss things such as this. Thank you for your reply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johndavid316 Posted October 9, 2010 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 32 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/05/2010 Status: Offline Author Share Posted October 9, 2010 (edited) JohnDavid - Newtonian physics works great for understanding what we see here on Earth and surrounding area. But when we go to the macroscale of the universe, Newtonian physics crumbles. Currently, as far as I know, we rely on Einstein's theories to make sense of what we see of the universe at large. And when we go to the micro-microscale of quantum physics, nothing makes sense! Scientists are still putting the pieces together on that one, like string theory and the like. In the same vein, you are trying to apply the logic of our field of vision into a realm that operates under a completely different set of principles. Trying to say omniscience and free will cannot coexist based on the logic of what you can touch, see, and feel, is like a scientist trying to trying to define a black hole with Newtonian physics. It just doesn't work! That is why I made my hypothetical universe, so that it was free from the restrictions of the God of the Bible. Secondly, I made a very sound, logical argument on why the two cannot coexist. The logic does work, as opposed to the physics, where the equations literally stop working. Where the logic doesn't fit is with the Bible, and I can explain the paradox there. This is, however why I created a hypothetical universe without the Bible so that I could make it work. The reason why the logic doesn't work when applied to the Bible is because God said that he is omniscient AND that he gave man free will. Obviously, then, it breaks down. But I was using the two terms in a universe where Joey's god never mentioned free will and we had to logically explore whether it was possible. Edited October 9, 2010 by johndavid316 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted October 9, 2010 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.94 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted October 9, 2010 That is why I made my hypothetical universe, so that it was free from the restrictions of the God of the Bible. Why? What is your purpose? Secondly, I made a very sound, logical argument on why the two cannot coexist. By earthly logic - which doesn't apply to the spiritual realm. Where the logic doesn't fit is with the Bible Because God's wisdom is works differently than man's logic. and I can explain the paradox there. The Bible is full or paradoxes. So? This is, however why I created a hypothetical universe without the Bible so that I could make it work. The reason why the logic doesn't work when applied to the Bible is because God said that he is omniscient AND that he gave man free will. Obviously, then, it breaks down. But I was using the two terms in a universe where Joey's god never mentioned free will and we had to logically explore whether it was possible. Why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorningGlory Posted October 9, 2010 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1,022 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 39,193 Content Per Day: 6.09 Reputation: 9,977 Days Won: 78 Joined: 10/01/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted October 9, 2010 I'm going to walk you through this step by step. First of all, you say "God knows the beginning from the end due to God not being bound by time. He knows because He has already been there." That is fine. I can agree with that. However if God knows because he has already been there then the future is predetermined, which, in and of itself makes free will impossible. The next thing you say is "A person does have a choice." I am not arguing that, in fact, I agree with that. I am not arguing whether or not someone has a choice, I am arguing whether or not they can have free will with an omniscient god. "Let's say if God knows a person loves the color blue, and presents this person with all the colors created and asks them to choose their favorite color, the person still has a choice." This is true, the person does have a choice. However in order to have free will, he must be able to choose any of the choices according to his will. Since Joey's god is omniscient, he knows what Joey will choose and cannot be wrong. Even though Joey is given multiple choices, Joey can only choose one. That demonstrates that he does not have free will. It has nothing to do with the outcome from Joey's perspective. Joey thinks he has a choice, but he must necessarily chose a predetermined choice. Joey is experiencing an illusion of free will. "Omniscience means having infinite knowledge or understanding." I agree. "God knew what the choice would be." I agree "Because He knew does not negate that fact that a person has a choice." This is true, Joey had two choices. However in order for Joey's god to be omniscient, he must necessarily choose the choice that his god knew he would choose. Did that help you understand it better? And lastly, "Do you believe people have the free will to chose salvation?" I presented this argument that omniscience cannot coexist with free will as a way to explore a logical paradox. This is why I came up with a hypothetical universe. The Bible says that people have the free will to choose salvation, so I believe that they do. Obviously knowledge of God and His Word transcends the logic of man. But while we are still men, I find it interesting to discuss things such as this. Thank you for your reply. Your posts would be a LOT easier to read if you used the 'quote' feature, JohnDavid. It's hard to know what you are posting, or what was posted by someone else, when it's all mixed together. I don't see why you don't understand what OneLight is telling you. God is outside of space and time; we have free will, we can choose for ourselves but God (because he is not in this dimension) knows what we will choose. It's simple really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johndavid316 Posted October 9, 2010 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 32 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/05/2010 Status: Offline Author Share Posted October 9, 2010 That is why I made my hypothetical universe, so that it was free from the restrictions of the God of the Bible. Why? What is your purpose? Secondly, I made a very sound, logical argument on why the two cannot coexist. By earthly logic - which doesn't apply to the spiritual realm. Where the logic doesn't fit is with the Bible Because God's wisdom is works differently than man's logic. and I can explain the paradox there. The Bible is full or paradoxes. So? This is, however why I created a hypothetical universe without the Bible so that I could make it work. The reason why the logic doesn't work when applied to the Bible is because God said that he is omniscient AND that he gave man free will. Obviously, then, it breaks down. But I was using the two terms in a universe where Joey's god never mentioned free will and we had to logically explore whether it was possible. Why? You keep asking why, so I am going to quote myself. "I presented this argument that omniscience cannot coexist with free will as a way to explore a logical paradox. This is why I came up with a hypothetical universe." Is it wrong to try to have an intellectual conversation here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johndavid316 Posted October 9, 2010 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 32 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/05/2010 Status: Offline Author Share Posted October 9, 2010 I'm going to walk you through this step by step. First of all, you say "God knows the beginning from the end due to God not being bound by time. He knows because He has already been there." That is fine. I can agree with that. However if God knows because he has already been there then the future is predetermined, which, in and of itself makes free will impossible. The next thing you say is "A person does have a choice." I am not arguing that, in fact, I agree with that. I am not arguing whether or not someone has a choice, I am arguing whether or not they can have free will with an omniscient god. "Let's say if God knows a person loves the color blue, and presents this person with all the colors created and asks them to choose their favorite color, the person still has a choice." This is true, the person does have a choice. However in order to have free will, he must be able to choose any of the choices according to his will. Since Joey's god is omniscient, he knows what Joey will choose and cannot be wrong. Even though Joey is given multiple choices, Joey can only choose one. That demonstrates that he does not have free will. It has nothing to do with the outcome from Joey's perspective. Joey thinks he has a choice, but he must necessarily chose a predetermined choice. Joey is experiencing an illusion of free will. "Omniscience means having infinite knowledge or understanding." I agree. "God knew what the choice would be." I agree "Because He knew does not negate that fact that a person has a choice." This is true, Joey had two choices. However in order for Joey's god to be omniscient, he must necessarily choose the choice that his god knew he would choose. Did that help you understand it better? And lastly, "Do you believe people have the free will to chose salvation?" I presented this argument that omniscience cannot coexist with free will as a way to explore a logical paradox. This is why I came up with a hypothetical universe. The Bible says that people have the free will to choose salvation, so I believe that they do. Obviously knowledge of God and His Word transcends the logic of man. But while we are still men, I find it interesting to discuss things such as this. Thank you for your reply. Your posts would be a LOT easier to read if you used the 'quote' feature, JohnDavid. It's hard to know what you are posting, or what was posted by someone else, when it's all mixed together. I don't see why you don't understand what OneLight is telling you. God is outside of space and time; we have free will, we can choose for ourselves but God (because he is not in this dimension) knows what we will choose. It's simple really. I do understand that that is the way it works with our God. But simply because of the nature of the two words I wanted to present a hypothetical universe that did not include the bible so I could discuss the nature of the two words. Now that we've agreed that in my hypothetical universe, the two cannot coexist, I will say this, as I have said before. Hebrews 6:18 It was impossible for God to lie. God is not bound by our logic. God cannot lie. If God says he is omniscient and gave us free will, then, he did. That is not hard to understand. Also remember that in the hypothetical universe, Joey's god only said he was omniscient, not that Joey had free will, and that was how he differed from our God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLight Posted October 9, 2010 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.22 Reputation: 9,763 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted October 9, 2010 Your theory is wrong. God knows the beginning from the end due to God not being bound by time. He knows because He has already been there. A person does have a choice. Using your analogy, Joey was given a choice, which you call an option. Let's say if God knows a person loves the color blue, and presents this person with all the colors created and asks them to choose their favorite color, the person still has a choice. The choice is the free will, not the outcome. Omniscience means having infinite knowledge or understanding. God knew what the choice would be. Because He knew does not negate that fact that a person has a choice. Do you believe people have the free will to chose salvation? I'm going to walk you through this step by step. First of all, you say "God knows the beginning from the end due to God not being bound by time. He knows because He has already been there." That is fine. I can agree with that. However if God knows because he has already been there then the future is predetermined, which, in and of itself makes free will impossible. The next thing you say is "A person does have a choice." I am not arguing that, in fact, I agree with that. I am not arguing whether or not someone has a choice, I am arguing whether or not they can have free will with an omniscient god. "Let's say if God knows a person loves the color blue, and presents this person with all the colors created and asks them to choose their favorite color, the person still has a choice." This is true, the person does have a choice. However in order to have free will, he must be able to choose any of the choices according to his will. Since Joey's god is omniscient, he knows what Joey will choose and cannot be wrong. Even though Joey is given multiple choices, Joey can only choose one. That demonstrates that he does not have free will. It has nothing to do with the outcome from Joey's perspective. Joey thinks he has a choice, but he must necessarily chose a predetermined choice. Joey is experiencing an illusion of free will. "Omniscience means having infinite knowledge or understanding." I agree. "God knew what the choice would be." I agree "Because He knew does not negate that fact that a person has a choice." This is true, Joey had two choices. However in order for Joey's god to be omniscient, he must necessarily choose the choice that his god knew he would choose. Did that help you understand it better? And lastly, "Do you believe people have the free will to chose salvation?" I presented this argument that omniscience cannot coexist with free will as a way to explore a logical paradox. This is why I came up with a hypothetical universe. The Bible says that people have the free will to choose salvation, so I believe that they do. Obviously knowledge of God and His Word transcends the logic of man. But while we are still men, I find it interesting to discuss things such as this. Thank you for your reply. Omniscience does not mean that Joey did not have a choice, as you are saying, but that the result of the choice is known. You are not making much sense. It seems to me that you are trying to prove that free will does not exist if God is God and I completely disagree. God did not make Joey choose one or the other. He just knew which one would be chosen. Do you think God predestines or does He work by foreknowledge? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted October 9, 2010 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.94 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted October 9, 2010 You keep asking why, so I am going to quote myself. "I presented this argument that omniscience cannot coexist with free will as a way to explore a logical paradox. This is why I came up with a hypothetical universe." Is it wrong to try to have an intellectual conversation here? And what exactly is your motivation for doing so? People don't just have "intellectual conversations" without a goal in mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorningGlory Posted October 9, 2010 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1,022 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 39,193 Content Per Day: 6.09 Reputation: 9,977 Days Won: 78 Joined: 10/01/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted October 9, 2010 You keep asking why, so I am going to quote myself. "I presented this argument that omniscience cannot coexist with free will as a way to explore a logical paradox. This is why I came up with a hypothetical universe." Is it wrong to try to have an intellectual conversation here? And what exactly is your motivation for doing so? People don't just have "intellectual conversations" without a goal in mind. I am curous about that myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johndavid316 Posted October 9, 2010 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 32 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/05/2010 Status: Offline Author Share Posted October 9, 2010 Your theory is wrong. God knows the beginning from the end due to God not being bound by time. He knows because He has already been there. A person does have a choice. Using your analogy, Joey was given a choice, which you call an option. Let's say if God knows a person loves the color blue, and presents this person with all the colors created and asks them to choose their favorite color, the person still has a choice. The choice is the free will, not the outcome. Omniscience means having infinite knowledge or understanding. God knew what the choice would be. Because He knew does not negate that fact that a person has a choice. Do you believe people have the free will to chose salvation? I'm going to walk you through this step by step. First of all, you say "God knows the beginning from the end due to God not being bound by time. He knows because He has already been there." That is fine. I can agree with that. However if God knows because he has already been there then the future is predetermined, which, in and of itself makes free will impossible. The next thing you say is "A person does have a choice." I am not arguing that, in fact, I agree with that. I am not arguing whether or not someone has a choice, I am arguing whether or not they can have free will with an omniscient god. "Let's say if God knows a person loves the color blue, and presents this person with all the colors created and asks them to choose their favorite color, the person still has a choice." This is true, the person does have a choice. However in order to have free will, he must be able to choose any of the choices according to his will. Since Joey's god is omniscient, he knows what Joey will choose and cannot be wrong. Even though Joey is given multiple choices, Joey can only choose one. That demonstrates that he does not have free will. It has nothing to do with the outcome from Joey's perspective. Joey thinks he has a choice, but he must necessarily chose a predetermined choice. Joey is experiencing an illusion of free will. "Omniscience means having infinite knowledge or understanding." I agree. "God knew what the choice would be." I agree "Because He knew does not negate that fact that a person has a choice." This is true, Joey had two choices. However in order for Joey's god to be omniscient, he must necessarily choose the choice that his god knew he would choose. Did that help you understand it better? And lastly, "Do you believe people have the free will to chose salvation?" I presented this argument that omniscience cannot coexist with free will as a way to explore a logical paradox. This is why I came up with a hypothetical universe. The Bible says that people have the free will to choose salvation, so I believe that they do. Obviously knowledge of God and His Word transcends the logic of man. But while we are still men, I find it interesting to discuss things such as this. Thank you for your reply. Omniscience does not mean that Joey did not have a choice, as you are saying, but that the result of the choice is known. You are not making much sense. It seems to me that you are trying to prove that free will does not exist if God is God and I completely disagree. God did not make Joey choose one or the other. He just knew which one would be chosen. Do you think God predestines or does He work by foreknowledge? Lets straighten this out first. We are talking about Joey's god, right? In this case, as I have gone over in my proof, this is the logical statement. If Joey's god knows what Joey will choose, and cannot be wrong, then Joey cannot choose anything else but what god knows he will choose. Free will is not the idea of having choices, but the being able to choose any of them. Think of a magician, he asks you to, "pick a card, any card." The magician knows what card you're going to pick, he cannot be wrong (or the trick wont work, but for the sake of the argument lets say he can never be wrong.) He gives you 52 choices, but you are only going to pick one. Can anybody argue that you are using your free will in this situation? Now, I understand that in this scenario, the magician is forcing a card, but that isn't whats deciding whether or not you're applying free will. What decides that is whether or not you have the ability to choose another card, which, since the magician can never be wrong, you do not. However, the reason why it feels like a magic trick is because you were given the illusion of free will. You feel as if you picked a card by yourself, and now he is only going to guess right 1/52 times...but he always gets it right! Similarly, in Joey's universe, Joey's god cannot be wrong, therefore, regardless of whether or not Joey is being forced to choose something, Joey can only choose the choice that his god knows he will choose. Therefore he does not have free will. Also it said in my proof that if he DID choose the an option that his god didn't know he would choose, then his god is not omniscient, and Joey does have free will. That is why, in that hypothetical universe, the two cannot coexist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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