OneLight Posted October 9, 2010 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.22 Reputation: 9,763 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted October 9, 2010 You keep asking why, so I am going to quote myself. "I presented this argument that omniscience cannot coexist with free will as a way to explore a logical paradox. This is why I came up with a hypothetical universe." Is it wrong to try to have an intellectual conversation here? And what exactly is your motivation for doing so? People don't just have "intellectual conversations" without a goal in mind. I am curous about that myself. My suspicion is to cause doubt that we have a free will. I do believe that John leans toward predestination theory. John, are you a Calvinist? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johndavid316 Posted October 9, 2010 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 32 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/05/2010 Status: Offline Author Share Posted October 9, 2010 Sorry I didn't answer your last question, God works by foreknowledge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorningGlory Posted October 9, 2010 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1,022 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 39,193 Content Per Day: 6.09 Reputation: 9,977 Days Won: 78 Joined: 10/01/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted October 9, 2010 That is why, in that hypothetical universe, the two cannot coexist. In OUR universe, we are free to choose.....and God has known since before He laid the foundations of the world what those choices will be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLight Posted October 9, 2010 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.22 Reputation: 9,763 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted October 9, 2010 Your theory is wrong. God knows the beginning from the end due to God not being bound by time. He knows because He has already been there. A person does have a choice. Using your analogy, Joey was given a choice, which you call an option. Let's say if God knows a person loves the color blue, and presents this person with all the colors created and asks them to choose their favorite color, the person still has a choice. The choice is the free will, not the outcome. Omniscience means having infinite knowledge or understanding. God knew what the choice would be. Because He knew does not negate that fact that a person has a choice. Do you believe people have the free will to chose salvation? I'm going to walk you through this step by step. First of all, you say "God knows the beginning from the end due to God not being bound by time. He knows because He has already been there." That is fine. I can agree with that. However if God knows because he has already been there then the future is predetermined, which, in and of itself makes free will impossible. The next thing you say is "A person does have a choice." I am not arguing that, in fact, I agree with that. I am not arguing whether or not someone has a choice, I am arguing whether or not they can have free will with an omniscient god. "Let's say if God knows a person loves the color blue, and presents this person with all the colors created and asks them to choose their favorite color, the person still has a choice." This is true, the person does have a choice. However in order to have free will, he must be able to choose any of the choices according to his will. Since Joey's god is omniscient, he knows what Joey will choose and cannot be wrong. Even though Joey is given multiple choices, Joey can only choose one. That demonstrates that he does not have free will. It has nothing to do with the outcome from Joey's perspective. Joey thinks he has a choice, but he must necessarily chose a predetermined choice. Joey is experiencing an illusion of free will. "Omniscience means having infinite knowledge or understanding." I agree. "God knew what the choice would be." I agree "Because He knew does not negate that fact that a person has a choice." This is true, Joey had two choices. However in order for Joey's god to be omniscient, he must necessarily choose the choice that his god knew he would choose. Did that help you understand it better? And lastly, "Do you believe people have the free will to chose salvation?" I presented this argument that omniscience cannot coexist with free will as a way to explore a logical paradox. This is why I came up with a hypothetical universe. The Bible says that people have the free will to choose salvation, so I believe that they do. Obviously knowledge of God and His Word transcends the logic of man. But while we are still men, I find it interesting to discuss things such as this. Thank you for your reply. Omniscience does not mean that Joey did not have a choice, as you are saying, but that the result of the choice is known. You are not making much sense. It seems to me that you are trying to prove that free will does not exist if God is God and I completely disagree. God did not make Joey choose one or the other. He just knew which one would be chosen. Do you think God predestines or does He work by foreknowledge? Lets straighten this out first. We are talking about Joey's god, right? In this case, as I have gone over in my proof, this is the logical statement. If Joey's god knows what Joey will choose, and cannot be wrong, then Joey cannot choose anything else but what god knows he will choose. Free will is not the idea of having choices, but the being able to choose any of them. Think of a magician, he asks you to, "pick a card, any card." The magician knows what card you're going to pick, he cannot be wrong (or the trick wont work, but for the sake of the argument lets say he can never be wrong.) He gives you 52 choices, but you are only going to pick one. Can anybody argue that you are using your free will in this situation? Now, I understand that in this scenario, the magician is forcing a card, but that isn't whats deciding whether or not you're applying free will. What decides that is whether or not you have the ability to choose another card, which, since the magician can never be wrong, you do not. However, the reason why it feels like a magic trick is because you were given the illusion of free will. You feel as if you picked a card by yourself, and now he is only going to guess right 1/52 times...but he always gets it right! Similarly, in Joey's universe, Joey's god cannot be wrong, therefore, regardless of whether or not Joey is being forced to choose something, Joey can only choose the choice that his god knows he will choose. Therefore he does not have free will. Also it said in my proof that if he DID choose the an option that his god didn't know he would choose, then his god is not omniscient, and Joey does have free will. That is why, in that hypothetical universe, the two cannot coexist. Again, foreknowledge does not mean no choice. It means that it was known. If Joey made another choice, then his god would of known that choice. You have it backwards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johndavid316 Posted October 9, 2010 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 32 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/05/2010 Status: Offline Author Share Posted October 9, 2010 You keep asking why, so I am going to quote myself. "I presented this argument that omniscience cannot coexist with free will as a way to explore a logical paradox. This is why I came up with a hypothetical universe." Is it wrong to try to have an intellectual conversation here? And what exactly is your motivation for doing so? People don't just have "intellectual conversations" without a goal in mind. I am curous about that myself. My suspicion is to cause doubt that we have a free will. I do believe that John leans toward predestination theory. John, are you a Calvinist? I was raised Lutheran. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted October 9, 2010 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.94 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted October 9, 2010 You keep asking why, so I am going to quote myself. "I presented this argument that omniscience cannot coexist with free will as a way to explore a logical paradox. This is why I came up with a hypothetical universe." Is it wrong to try to have an intellectual conversation here? And what exactly is your motivation for doing so? People don't just have "intellectual conversations" without a goal in mind. I am curous about that myself. My suspicion is to cause doubt that we have a free will. I do believe that John leans toward predestination theory. John, are you a Calvinist? I was raised Lutheran. So was I. Again, what is your motivation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johndavid316 Posted October 9, 2010 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 32 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/05/2010 Status: Offline Author Share Posted October 9, 2010 Again, foreknowledge does not mean no choice. It means that it was known. If Joey made another choice, then his god would of known that choice. You have it backwards. Ok, very quickly, I am going ask you a question that will either prove your point or prove my point. Joey's god cannot be wrong, and has foreknowledge of the future. Joey is presented with choice A and B. Joey's god knows Joey will pick A. Can Joey pick B? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLight Posted October 9, 2010 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.22 Reputation: 9,763 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted October 9, 2010 Again, foreknowledge does not mean no choice. It means that it was known. If Joey made another choice, then his god would of known that choice. You have it backwards. Ok, very quickly, I am going ask you a question that will either prove your point or prove my point. Joey's god cannot be wrong, and has foreknowledge of the future. Joey is presented with choice A and B. Joey's god knows Joey will pick A. Can Joey pick B? At the time of choice, yes. What you are doing is taking foreknowledge and are trying to eliminate the fact that joey had no choice. If Joey chose B, then his god would know of a different outcome. The fact that his god knew he would chose A is why his foreknowledge was so. That does not mean Joey did nto have a choice, but that the choice he made was already known. It appears you are trying to understand through a finite mind and infinite God, making an argument that the two can not co-exist, which they do. To me, your analogy is too close to real life to not make a connection between the two, which is why the question of "what is your motivation" has risen, but also has gone unanswered. Everyone has a reason for asking questions or starting a thread. What is your motivation and what answers are you seeking? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johndavid316 Posted October 9, 2010 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 32 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/05/2010 Status: Offline Author Share Posted October 9, 2010 I don't have a motivation. You're explaining this wrong to your self, you must remember that in my example, Joey's god did not specify whether or not Joey had free will. There are two answers to the question I asked you. First, no, Joey cannot choose B because his god cannot be wrong, therefore he has multiple choices but could only choose one, and because of this, Joey has no free will. The other answer is yes, Joey can choose B. However if he does, then his god is not omniscient since he was wrong, and Joey DOES have free will, in this situation. What you have presented is that if Joey decides to choose B, then his god would have known he was going to choose it. This does not in any way disprove my point. Since my logical statement included that his god knew he was going to choose A, you simply reversed the statement, saying that his god knew he was going to choose B. That is fine, however, if his god knows that he is going to choose B, he cannot choose A, because then his god was wrong. It has absolutely nothing to do with the time of choosing. When I state that his god knows the answer will be A, it is the final result, the final answer, it has nothing at all to do with previous intent or the time of choosing. With that said, I will present what you said in a logical statement form. If god knows Joey will pick B and cannot be wrong, then joey must pick B. This is true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLight Posted October 9, 2010 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.22 Reputation: 9,763 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted October 9, 2010 I don't have a motivation. You're explaining this wrong to your self, you must remember that in my example, Joey's god did not specify whether or not Joey had free will. Then if Joey does not have free will, this makes absolutely no sense at all discussing free will. You are creating a circle game which I don't have time for. Off to work ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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