The true birth date of Jesus

[Fez]

oh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.

Joh 1:3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Joh 1:4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men.

Joh 1:5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

[Fez]

oh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.

Joh 1:3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Joh 1:4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men.

Joh 1:5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

[Fez]

I

oh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.

Joh 1:3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Joh 1:4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men.

Joh 1:5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

[Dragoon]

I think that we should give te poor guy a break. he had a schitzophrenic relationship with a god.

oh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.

Joh 1:3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Joh 1:4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men.

Joh 1:5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

.

But he who listens to a life-giving rebuke will be at home among the wise.

Personally, I try to listen

edited by Mizzdy

[nChrist]

Here's part of the beautiful and Eternal Truth:

John 1:1-3 KJV In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

John 1:14 KJV And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

As Christians, there are many things that we should celebrate every day and give thanks for. The birthday we speak of is for the physical manifestation of God the Son who has existed for eternity past. This birthday is of little importance compared to what Jesus Christ did and accomplished. From henceforth, no man knows Jesus Christ after the flesh because He is very God, one with God The Father and God The Holy Spirit.

Philippians 2:5-11 KJV Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Every day belongs to the Lord. When is His Birthday? - He doesn't have one because He is the Creator of all Life and has existed before the foundation of the world. So, we have many reasons to give thanks and celebrate every day - certainly not just one day a year.

[Guest shiloh357]

Your posture is based on the presumption that Christ must die according to Exodus 12. My posture is based on the posture that Christ must die according to the Passover fest established by Moses in Leviticus and Numbers. We have to figure out who is right.

In Exodus 12, the lamb was sacrified on the 14th. In the Gospels. Jesus requested Peter and John to prepare Passover on the 14th, celebfration the supper next night. Jesus - according to the Gospels - ended the 14th absolutely alive. The Gospels clearly declare that Jesus Christ did not die on the 14th as described in Exodus 12.

Passover was first established in Exodus 12. While some of the details are unique, it is considered the first Passover. All of the Passover typology of Christ is drawn from Exodus 12. The killing of the lamb at 3:00 pm is established in Exodus 12, for example. Jesus died at 3:00 pm (between the evenings) on the 14th. In fact, the entire last week or so of Jesus' life is a reenactment of Exodus 12.

Either you are wrong or the Gospels are wrong.

You are wrong.

[Guest shiloh357]

Your posture is based on the presumption that Christ must die according to Exodus 12. My posture is based on the posture that Christ must die according to the Passover fest established by Moses in Leviticus and Numbers. We have to figure out who is right.

In Exodus 12, the lamb was sacrified on the 14th. In the Gospels. Jesus requested Peter and John to prepare Passover on the 14th, celebfration the supper next night. Jesus - according to the Gospels - ended the 14th absolutely alive. The Gospels clearly declare that Jesus Christ did not die on the 14th as described in Exodus 12.

Passover was first established in Exodus 12. While some of the details are unique, it is considered the first Passover. All of the Passover typology of Christ is drawn from Exodus 12. The killing of the lamb at 3:00 pm is established in Exodus 12, for example. Jesus died at 3:00 pm (between the evenings) on the 14th. In fact, the entire last week or so of Jesus' life is a reenactment of Exodus 12.

Either you are wrong or the Gospels are wrong.

You are wrong.

Exodus signal the 14th...the Gospels say that Jesus did not die on the 14th. I have not opinion. If I have not opinion I am not worng. If Exodus and the Gospels dont coincide...who is wrong?

Jesus died on the 14th at 3:00 pm just like He was supposed to. They coincide perfectly. It is your study skills that are lacking.

[Guest shiloh357]

shiloh,

1) Are you in a position to address the practicing Jews' belief that the Passover meal was eaten on Nissan 15,

which would place Jesus' death on Nissan 15, since he ate Passover with his disciples.

The lamb was instructed to be killed on the 14th between the evenings and then cooked/prepared and finally eaten at the beginning of the 15th at sundown. Jesus' death coincides with when the lamb died, not when it was eaten.

Secondly, Jesus had the Passover Seder (which did not include the eating of the lamb) with His disciples at the very beginning of the 14th at sundown just as the 13th came to a close. He was crucifed the following afternoon on the 14th at 3 p.m.

2) Can you help me understand Lev 23:5, where the Passover begins at twilight on Nissan 14 and the time the lamb was slaughtered?

Was it slaughtered before dark on the 14th, and eaten after dark on the 14th?

"Twilight" in the text of Lev. 23:5 is bein haerevim and means, "between the evenings." It references erev hakaton, the "lesser (or shorter) evening" 12 p.m. -3 p.m. and erev hagadol, the "greater (or longer) evening" 3 p.m. - sundown. So, "between the evenings" references 3:00 p.m. That is when the lamb was slaugtered. Jesus died a the same time that the passover lamb was slaughtered.

3) Can you help me understand Ex 12:6 where the Passover lamb was slaughtered at twilight of the 14th and eaten that night?

Exactly when was it slaughtered, and how much later did they eat the Passover meal?

Again, it is the same as above.

4) And then how does all that fit in with Jesus' eating the Passover with his disciples, and dying after eating Passover.

I hope you can help me sort it out.

As the sun was going down on the 13th of Aviv/Nisan, the disciples prepared for the Seder. The Seder was eaten at the beginning of the 14th which was just after sundown at the close of the 13th. This was only ONE facet of the Passover celebration in those days. The eating of the Lamb occured the following afternoon, still on the 14th.

One thing I learned is that they had a very efficient and clean manner of killing the Lambs for Passover during the Second Temple Period. They killed the "main" passover lamb in the temple for the nation at the burnt altar, but all of the priests were on hand to kill the Passover lambs that the people had brought to the Temple to be killed and eaten. They had developed a very clean and quick manner to kill a Passover lambs and in the space of just a couple of hours or so, thousands of lambs would be killed, bled and then taken home that afternoon to be prepared and eaten. One lamb often covered more than one household, as three or four generations of families would gather in one house. Not to mention the fact that those too poor to buy their own lamb would be invited into homes to eat the Passover Lamb, so the overall numbers of lambs required was not as many as you would think.

People have the mistaken idea that during the Second Temple Period the lambs were eaten at the Seder, and that is not true. That assumption has caused a lot of confusion about the chronology of events concerning the Passover and the death of Jesus.

[Guest shiloh357]

Thank you so much. More questions:

1) On the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, when it was customary to sacrifice the Passover lamb, Jesus' disciples asked him, "Where do you want us to make preparations for you to eat the Passover?" (Mk 14:12)

Was the first day of Unleavened Bread here Nissan 15?

Passover and Unleavened Bread, even today, are celebrated almost as if they were one festival. They were commanded to eat unleavened bread for seven days (15th - 21st of Aviv/Nisan). The 14th is included because it is the day of preparation. What it means is that the house had be cleared of all leaven, not even a crumb of leaven was to be in the house at the beginning of the 15th. It is customary that all leaven is removed at by the very beginning of the 14th and only unleavened bread is eaten from that point forward. It was called the first day of Unleavened Bread because for eight days, the Jewish people did not produce or eat leavened bread. Even today from the standpoint of observance, "Unleavened Bread" is still treated as an eight day observance. Mark 1:12 is reflecting that practice, which is still in operation today.

Was the Passover lamb sacrificed on Nissan 15?

No. It was sacrificed on the 14th as commanded.

So when was the Passover eaten here?

It was eaten on the 14th, the "first day of Unleavened Bread."

2) It was just before the Passover feast. . .the evening meal was being served. . .Jesus washed their feet. (Jn 13:1-5)

What date was this?

The 14th.

What meal was being served?

Actually, the exact meal is not known. The seder is a symbolic meal and today, it is a bit different, but it is likely other things were present, fruits, olives, nuts, broiled fish perhaps. But no lamb.

Was Jesus subsequently arrested after this meal?

Yes.

3) A timeline of the above gospel accounts from Nissan 13 through Nissan 16 would be so helpful.

It's really simple. Jesus and his disciples have the passover seder at the beginning of the 14th. After they partake of the seder, they depart to Gethsemene. Jesus is arrested and tried overnight and into the next day. He is crucifed at 9 am on the 14th and dies six hours later 3pm (between the evenings) when the lamb at the temple is killed on the 14th and is laid to rest before the onset of the 15th (which is a High Sabbath). The lambs of the people are eaten with unleavened bread and bitter herbs as commanded by God.

The resurrection on the 16th has generated a few differing views as to which day of the week the 14t fell. The traditional (Catholic) view is that it fell on Friday. Others believe based on Jesus words in Matt. 12:40 that Jesus was buried for 72 hours, which would put the 14th on Wed afternoon the High Sabbath on Thurs. and the Resurrection immediately after the Saturday Sabbath on the first of the week (our Saturday night). The latter view has merit. You cannot get three days and three nights out of Friday afternoon - Sunday morning. So the question is how we take the words of Jesus on that matter. Others believe that Jesus was crucified on Thursday and was raised early Sunday morning or just after the Sabbath.

And then I would like to present some questions on Special/High Sabbaths, which I find only once in Scripture at Jn 19:31.

Ask away.

[Guest shiloh357]

Thanks so much for helping me to clear this up. But I'm still not there yet. Let me review so far:

1) Mark 14:12 refers to the eight-day feast.

From the standpoint of observance, yes. While we can obviously see from the Torah that Unleavened Bread is a seven-day festival, the Jews have historically observed Passover and Unleavened Bread in a manner that treates it like an eight-day festival and Mark refelects that in 14:12.

2) Were the eight days ever called just Passover?

Sure. In fact, today, modern Judaism often refers to all eight days as "Passover."

3) The 14th was both the day of Preparation (for Unleavened Bread) as well as Passover (lamb slaughtered)?

Yes.

Question: Here's where I'm not clear.

The disciples made preparations to "eat the Passover" with Jesus (Mt 26:17; Mk 14:12; Lk 22:8).

What date was that meal? Why is it called Passover?

The Seder was eaten on the 14th and that is clear from the text. It was called the Passover. I think that this is an issue of tradition and I have really have no problem with it. Why they chose to call the seder "The Passover" is not something I can answer.

Would that be why the Jewish scholars of the NIV see beginning of Nissan 14 as when lamb was slaughtered and eaten (Thursday),

the Friday of "Passover Week", Nissan 14, as the day of crucifixion and also of Preparation (Jn 19:14), for

the special Saturday Sabbath (Jn 19:31), Nissan 15, which fell in Passover Week, and was also

the first day of Unleavened Bread (15th-21st) that year,

with the resurrection on Nissan 16 (which I note is Firstfruits).

I don't know what the "Jewish scholars of the NIV" believe. I don't agree with the above timeline. I work from the KJV, as it is my version of preference.

Regarding Special or High Sabbaths: is there any Biblical basis for such?

I find it mentioned only once in Scripture (Jn 19:31).

Well, there is nothing in the Torah or anywhere in the OT that refers to "High Sabbath." However, it is not uncommon for Jews to use that terminology when referencing their observances. Note that even today, Jews refer to the 10 days starting from Rosh Hashannah to Yom Kippur as "The High Holy Days."

John is referencing the first day of Unleavened Bread, which is a special Sabbath and not the weekly Sabbath. Some have suggested that it is the Shabbat Hagadol or "Great Sabbath" but that is the weekly Sabbath that precedes Passover and so would not fit this timeline.

I note that the restrictions on work are different for feast days (Ex 12:16; Lev 23:7, 8, 21, 25, 35, 36 ) than for Saturday Sabbaths and the Day of Atonement (Lev 23:3, 28).

Yes.