doubting_tommy Posted January 13, 2011 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 1 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 264 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 11 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/19/2010 Status: Offline Share Posted January 13, 2011 I have shown through accepted, proven scientific laws that the Universe could not create itself from nothingness, nor can it be eternal. You then turn around and say, "well, those laws may change in the future!" or "maybe the scientists are wrong!" You set the bar so high, because you really don't want to be convinced. It's the same thing when it comes to obeying God. Any casual reader of this thread. believer or otherwise, would concede that it's reasonable to accept that if God exists, and He is holy, just and perfect as the Bible says, and He indeed created us, then He has the right to make the rules and expect us to obey them. On the origin of the universe, it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doubting_tommy Posted January 13, 2011 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 1 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 264 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 11 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/19/2010 Status: Offline Share Posted January 13, 2011 Again, God is exempt because as the Creator of the Universe and all of it's laws, He thus is not bound by the Universe or those laws He created. I use naturalistic scientific laws with you because you don't accept that God exists. But if God does exist, it really goes without saying that He cannot be subjected to His creation, unlike us, who are created beings. And again, it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doubting_tommy Posted January 13, 2011 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 1 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 264 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 11 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/19/2010 Status: Offline Share Posted January 13, 2011 I'm not "trying" - I have. I'm doing the a ball under one of three cups breakdown. If you have 3 cups, one cup being the Universe creating itself from nothingness, the other being an eternal Universe, and the last cup being created by God, if I take away the first two cups, it's apparent which cup the ball is under. In order to remove those first two cups you rely on the fact that they supposedly break the laws of science as we understand them. Yet your third cup does precisely the same thing, only even more blatantly. You Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doubting_tommy Posted January 13, 2011 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 1 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 264 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 11 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/19/2010 Status: Offline Share Posted January 13, 2011 A "quantum" anything requires the existance of energy and/or matter to be even possible. Yes but you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorningGlory Posted January 13, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1,022 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 39,193 Content Per Day: 6.10 Reputation: 9,977 Days Won: 78 Joined: 10/01/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted January 13, 2011 On the origin of the universe, it's a question of likelihood. Consider the logical possibilities- 1: That an infinitely powerful, infinitely intelligent entity somehow willed the universe into existence, in defiance of all our laws of physics. D.T., please try to understand the following....the laws of physics are NOT ours. Those laws are God's. He is not subject to the constraints of space, time or physical laws. You don't get to make the rules for Him or to judge Him. You are the one who will be judged. Why can you not understand these simple facts? I find it bizarre that you think it is setting the bar too high to suggest that we question our understanding of physics before assuming the existence of an entity whose existence would call into question every law of science ever discovered. Again, these laws of science are God's. With regard to your second point, I think you're misunderstanding what I've been saying about our duty to obey God. My position has been that if we have a duty to obey God it is because God's commands are good and we have a duty to be good. I have disputed the claim that any moral duty arises from the mere fact that God has created us. So where then do YOU think moral understanding comes from? Did humans develop souls and moral laws on their own? What should I infer about the creator of a building which is mostly empty and falling apart? In any case, even if I were to accept that there is evidence of intentionality behind the creation of the universe (I don't, but suppose I do), it wouldn't follow that the creator is still alive, cares about my existence, or is worth worshipping. You've managed deism, at best. Do you honestly believe your opinions are going to save you when you have to recount them to your Creator? If so, it's arrogance to the nth degree. Either God is bound by the laws of logic, or He is not. If He is not, then He may exist and not exist at the same time. Attempting to muddle the issue doesn't strengthen your position....nor does it make you appear a deep thinker; in fact, it's totally lame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuftWaffle Posted January 13, 2011 Group: Senior Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 820 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 261 Days Won: 7 Joined: 01/09/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted January 13, 2011 (edited) God's word is either unchanging because He cannot change it, or because He chooses not to. If it is the former, then God is bound by external laws of morality, if it is the latter, then morality is arbitrary. Perhaps I am mistaken, but in my opinion this is a false dilemma. 'Good' is what God's nature is. As such it isn't ontologically God (in a sense that God's existence equates to the existence of good), and neither is it an arbitrary decision and neither is it something that God is subject to. In other words it's a property of God, not God Himself neither is it a decision that God made. Perhaps this analogy is too simple, but think about a simple fire. Heat is a property of fire. Fire doesn't adhere to heat, heat is a part of it. There isn't a prescriptive law that fire obeys in being hot. Likewise fire didn't arbitrarily decide to be hot. In a sense it comes down to determinism or freewill. The hidden assumption in your question is: "All things are either determined or willed". Can you prove this metaphysical assertion? I assume you're an atheist or agnostic, and if so I can offer the cosmos as one example of something that I'm sure you'll believe is neither determined nor arbitraly willed, for if it is either, then it begs the question who or what determines the cosmos to exist (and what determines that and what determines that etc.) or alternatively who willed the cosmos into existence. Edited January 13, 2011 by LuftWaffle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyguy Posted January 14, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 373 Topics Per Day: 0.07 Content Count: 3,331 Content Per Day: 0.59 Reputation: 71 Days Won: 10 Joined: 10/15/2008 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/24/1965 Share Posted January 14, 2011 Tom, right off the bat I gotta say - when it takes us four or five posts to answer each other, it almost feels like I'm writing a novel. Anyhoo...... I don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyguy Posted January 14, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 373 Topics Per Day: 0.07 Content Count: 3,331 Content Per Day: 0.59 Reputation: 71 Days Won: 10 Joined: 10/15/2008 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/24/1965 Share Posted January 14, 2011 Continued... My claim was that the laws *may* have acted differently (which is one of about four logical possibilities, as far as I can see). In any case, I am curious as to what it is you think I have demanded with regards to evidence which is setting the bar too high. Meaning, no matter what evidence I can give you, or how much, it will never be enough. You are of the mind, I believe, that it must take God to appear before you, slap you upside the head and yell, "I'M REAL!" before you will even consider Him. And nothing short of that will make you even think about changing your mind. On the origin of the universe, it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyguy Posted January 14, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 373 Topics Per Day: 0.07 Content Count: 3,331 Content Per Day: 0.59 Reputation: 71 Days Won: 10 Joined: 10/15/2008 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/24/1965 Share Posted January 14, 2011 Continued... You Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyguy Posted January 14, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 373 Topics Per Day: 0.07 Content Count: 3,331 Content Per Day: 0.59 Reputation: 71 Days Won: 10 Joined: 10/15/2008 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/24/1965 Share Posted January 14, 2011 Continued... We Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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