Does a Good God Exist?

[doubting_tommy]

I do not have to accept DCT "theories" or reject them.

Certainly not, you can, of course, ignore them.

All your arguments sound really great and informed, but all they really constitute is an unbeliever over-thinking something that is really pretty simple. You are kicking at the goads.

I don't accept that it is 'really pretty simple', given that it is a topic which has been debated for literally thousands of years, by believers and nonbelievers alike. I can certainly accept the claim that I have been unpersuasive, or that I have failed to articulate my position, or that some other elements of my attempted explanations have been defective in some way. But you shouldn't let my failures damn the entire enterprise of rational inquiry.

I do not accept God because of logic or theories or moralistic arguments. I accept Him simply because He Is.

I don't understand how you can believe in God (or indeed, anything) without using some sort of logic to arrive at your conclusion, even if you don't consider it a logical process. There are presumably reasons why you believe that 'He Is'- perhaps based on your observations of the world around you, or on inner reflection, or some intrinsic certainty in the pit of your soul. I should also point out that nothing I have been saying here calls into question the existence of God, rather it calls into question certain interpretations about the relationship between 'goodness' and God's will. Given that none of us here would claim to know the mind of God or to be able to fully comprehend His nature, I think these are fair questions (and that God has gifted us with critical faculties and it would be a shame not to use them).

You will reject every argument because that is the core component of unbelief.

I will never reject an argument which appears to be a good one to me and I don't think it's fair to ask more than that of anyone, no matter what the issue is. I am aware that I am only human and that I may be wrong about a great many things which is why I try to always keep an open mind.

[Guest]

Heal me, O LORD, and I shall be healed;

save me, and I shall be saved: for thou art my praise.

Behold, they say unto me, Where is the word of the LORD? let it come now. Jeremiah 17:14-15

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.... All your arguments sound really great and informed, but all they really constitute is an unbeliever over-thinking something that is really pretty simple. You are kicking at the goads.....

.... I don't accept that it is 'really pretty simple', given that it is a topic which has been debated for literally thousands of years, by believers and nonbelievers alike. I can certainly accept the claim that I have been unpersuasive, or that I have failed to articulate my position, or that some other elements of my attempted explanations have been defective in some way. But you shouldn't let my failures damn the entire enterprise of rational inquiry....

Logically

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Romans 3:23

Is It Reasonable

Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. Isaiah 1:18

To Believe

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 6:23

Or Not

The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. John 3:35-36

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Believe

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

And Be Blessed Beloved

For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:17-18

Love, Joe

[wyguy]

That merely begs the question I asked above, i.e.

[doubting_tommy]

That IS why. He has right to you because He made you. And what is ironic is you deny Him with the very breath He gives you, on His planet He allows you to live on.

You

[other one]

That merely begs the question I asked above, i.e. "Why does the fact that God created me mean that he has every right to demand whatever He chooses from me?" You've simply asserted that this is so, but you haven't explained why.

You can discuss rights all you wish, but when you get right down to it, it is that way because he can, and he's told us that's the way it is. You can dislike that all you want, but that really doesn't matter as far as reality goes.

If you do things his way he'll make things alright and if you don't he'll toss your butt into the fire; and it's as simple as that. Some think that fire lasts forever and others just think you'll be burned up and totally destroyed..... perminantly.

I personally don't intend to find out about how the fires work.... but that choice is up to you....... and like it or not, Tommy, that's the way it is.

[doubting_tommy]

You can discuss rights all you wish, but when you get right down to it, it is that way because he can, and he's told us that's the way it is. You can dislike that all you want, but that really doesn't matter as far as reality goes.

If you do things his way he'll make things alright and if you don't he'll toss your butt into the fire; and it's as simple as that. Some think that fire lasts forever and others just think you'll be burned up and totally destroyed..... perminantly.

I personally don't intend to find out about how the fires work.... but that choice is up to you....... and like it or not, Tommy, that's the way it is.

This description paints God as nothing more than a celestial dictator, a bully who threatens eternal punishment to His children if they disobey His arbitrary commands. Such a being is certainly worthy of fear, but hardly love. Is that really the sort of God you believe in?

[other one]

You can discuss rights all you wish, but when you get right down to it, it is that way because he can, and he's told us that's the way it is. You can dislike that all you want, but that really doesn't matter as far as reality goes.

If you do things his way he'll make things alright and if you don't he'll toss your butt into the fire; and it's as simple as that. Some think that fire lasts forever and others just think you'll be burned up and totally destroyed..... perminantly.

I personally don't intend to find out about how the fires work.... but that choice is up to you....... and like it or not, Tommy, that's the way it is.

This description paints God as nothing more than a celestial dictator, a bully who threatens eternal punishment to His children if they disobey His arbitrary commands. Such a being is certainly worthy of fear, but hardly love. Is that really the sort of God you believe in?

One should only look at it from that perspective if one is a rebelious self centered entity that would never fit in within the Kingdom of God. God loves you to the point he came down here and suffered and died so that we don't have to be destroyed/punished whichever one believes. You may not agree with Him, but that is the reality of life........ deal with it.

[other one]

You can discuss rights all you wish, but when you get right down to it, it is that way because he can, and he's told us that's the way it is. You can dislike that all you want, but that really doesn't matter as far as reality goes.

If you do things his way he'll make things alright and if you don't he'll toss your butt into the fire; and it's as simple as that. Some think that fire lasts forever and others just think you'll be burned up and totally destroyed..... perminantly.

I personally don't intend to find out about how the fires work.... but that choice is up to you....... and like it or not, Tommy, that's the way it is.

This description paints God as nothing more than a celestial dictator, a bully who threatens eternal punishment to His children if they disobey His arbitrary commands. Such a being is certainly worthy of fear, but hardly love. Is that really the sort of God you believe in?

And this is the main problem that keeps me from embracing Christianity. Not because I cannot accept this moral, but on pure logical grounds

(in other words: it is self-contradicting).

It is said to be infinite love, but I do not see how. Conditional love is not love for me, not even finite, and I see a big red condition flashing here.

The image of God I have is the great mathematician. The idea that the creator of such beauty and complexity is also worried about my daily behavior or

whether I believe in him, seems inadequate,

From Gods perspective..... he creates these wonderful beings, and the wonderful beings, especially the greatest one he had made turns on him and tries to take over......

Well in mankind, he puts them into a lower status and lets them live for a time to see if they are willing to be the kind of entity that will fit into the heavenly realm before he gives them the kind of heavenly bodies that are a danger to everyone. He even comes he even sends Jesus down here to suffer and die in our place so we as a creation have second chances so show our allegience to him. The choice is yours as to whether or not he will be a loving God, or will not give you the oppertunity to follow Satan and create chaos in the heavenly realm.

We're not here for fun and games.

[other one]

We're not here for fun and games.

I did not ask to be born under these conditions. If doubters would simply disappear into oblivion instead

of going to hell, then I would say you have a point. That would also not allow the unworthy to go to Heaven.

But eternal damnation with fire tearing me apart forever? That seems quite disproportionate, simply

because I did not believe. You can say this is the way it is, but I would not call it Love; it is not even close

to my concept of unconditional and infinite love.

I would have never accepted to exist if I had been asked before.

Well, you should most likely take that up with your mom and dad for i doubt seriously that God twisted their arms to copulate and start you.

If it would help, there are several demonimations that teach exactly what you say about simply being destroyed if you choose to not believe. I could debate myself on both sides so I won't push that belief on anyone though therre are many here that would. It doesn't matter to me either way for my choice in the matter stems from the fact that I think Jesus is just about the coolest dude I ever read about and I'd like to spend eternity with or around him no matter where that might be.

See, I belong to him and will accept anything he decides to do with me..... but that's my personal choice.

You have a choice yourself and it really doesn't effect me except for being a bit sad that someone will be going down the road you seem to be on.

Things are just the way things are and we have only to make the best of it suffer the consequences..... and that's a decision you'll have to make for yourself. It's really none of my business until you try and drag others with you....

[doubting_tommy]

One should only look at it from that perspective if one is a rebelious self centered entity that would never fit in within the Kingdom of God. God loves you to the point he came down here and suffered and died so that we don't have to be destroyed/punished whichever one believes. You may not agree with Him, but that is the reality of life........ deal with it.

There is at least one point I can agree with you on