Where does "Grace" end

[OldEnglishSheepdog]

I can only speak the truth so if you disagree, you can't understand the true God.

There is only one truth and that is the word of God, so this statement is necessarily false, and indicitive of false prophesy.

You don't actually speak the truth, you speak your word. It's God's word that is truth (John 17:17).

Jesus said, I am the way and the truth and the life (John 14:6). These are exclusive concepts. There is one way, and all others lead to death. There is one life, and apart from God is death. There is one truth, and it is the word of God (John 17:17). Truth must be pure, otherwise it is no longer truth. It cannot be contaminated by misunderstanding, bias or any other failing; otherwise it ceases to be truth. Its like pure water it doesnt matter how little sewage you add to pure water, its not pure as soon as it is contaminated.

In John 13, we see even further the relationship between the truth relating only to the word of God, discernable (as we also know from 1 Corinthians) only by the Holy Spirit The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me... If you love me, keep my commands. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you foreverthe Spirit of truth (John 13: 10-15).

See how Jesus didnt even presume to speak His own words (truth) to us, but they were delivered from God (as commandments, which if we love Him we must keep) and discernable through the Spirit of Truth. This must be kept in mind as we analyze the Biblical concept of truth.

We see over and over again the word of God is truth, Thy word is truth (John 17:17), Thy law is truth. (Ps 119:142), all Thy commandments are truth (Ps 119:151), The sum of Thy word is truth (Ps 119:160), and that the wisdom, knowledge and understanding of that truth are from Him For the LORD gives wisdom, and from his mouth come knowledge and understanding (Proverbs 1:6), and that any other form of wisdom is incapable of determining truth For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God's sight (1 Cor. 3:19), For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the LORD. (Isaiah 5:8), There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death (Proverbs 14:12).

We are warned over and over again against trusting in human estimation of truth. In fact, thats exactly how the original sin occurred Eve considered herself to be in a position to evaluate the words of God for the truth instead of just trust God. This is especially true when were considering the mysteries of God, which includes His word (as weve already seen in John). the full riches of complete understanding, in order that they may know the mystery of God, namely, Christ, in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. I tell you this so that no one may deceive you by fine-sounding arguments (Colossians 2: 2-4)

Learning to differentiate is crucial, otherwise you're ascribing divine characteristics to yourself.

There is only one God and he reveals his knowledge in the bodies that he consigned to himself and I happen to be one of his bodies.

This is mistaken. God reveals His truth by His word and through His Spirit, as we see in John 13 and 14 above.

What you're suggesting is the heresy of Gnosticism.

ll the other bodies were killed by the Roman government within the first three hundred years after the body of Jesus died as a sacrifice.

This is more Gnosticism - meaning secret knowledge imparted to some. We're warned against it in many parts of scripture. The Nicolations in Revelation were likely Gnostic heretics.

Please read the Bible for the truth. You're on the wrong path right now.

This sacrifice made it possible for us saints to be made sinless so God has total control of our bodies, which are his to begin with.

This is clearly against the warring between the flesh and the spirit seen in scripture (and is textbook Gnosticism):

"For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that you cannot do the things that you would" (Galatians 5:17).

"For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do... it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to dothis I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in Gods law; but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to Gods law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin" (Romans 7: 15-25).

Religious people can only think in terms of the scriptures that the Jews and Romans changed to make them religious in appearance. What I mean by this, is that they added many pagan ideas in the scriptures so they would have something they could understand.

Are you talking about the Bible? If so what exactly is the proof of this?

Can you provide any primary source text that does not include these additions?

Any primary source evidence testifying that these practices were occurring?

This is why they liked church buildings, altars, pews, idols, choirs, pulpits, where they could discuss their pagan ideas like communion, water baptism, bodily resurrections, hell, pentecost, triune god, gifts of the spirit, tongues, tithes and offerings, etc.

As soon as you say "discuss their pagan ideas like..." the list ceases to become pagan and changes to a list of things found in the Bible.

God has revealed a lot of knowledge in my heart,

Yes, right there is textbook Gnostic heresy again.

This is exactly like the Mormon doctrine of the 'Burning in the Breast' where your guage of truth is your own feelings.

You're trusting in man for your truth instead of God's word: "Stop trusting in man, who has but a breath in his nostrils. Of what account is he?" (Isaiah 2:22)

"This is what the LORD says: "Cursed is the one who trusts in man, who depends on flesh for his strength and whose heart turns away from the LORD" (Jeremiah 17:5).

"They worship me in vain; their teachings are merely human rules.' You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to human traditions... you nullify the word of God by your tradition" (Mark 7:7-13)

mind and soul that is far beyond what any religious person could ever understand.

I'm sure you feel ways about stuff, but I'm affraid your assertions are grounded in nothing more than delusions of grandeur. By judging otherse, you're making yourself out to be special, but "Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him" (Acts 10:34-35).

Deity has nothing to do with God. That is a religious word to make sinners feel special.

No, that patently incorrect.

All words are made up, and that one is just the lexical hangup of the latin word for God.

There are many religious words that have nothing to do with God.

Sure, but deity isn't one of them. That's simply stems from the latin word divus meaning God.

Edited March 10, 2011 by OldEnglishSheepdog

[childeye]

God has revealed a lot of knowledge in my heart, mind and soul that is far beyond what any religious person could ever understand. Deity has nothing to do with God. That is a religious word to make sinners feel special. There are many religious words that have nothing to do with God.

I am new to this forum, but what you say I can understand in some perspective. Others here form another perspective disagree with you. I do believe there are semantics that cause misunderstandings. All things are God and all existence can be interpreted as grace. While the bible is inspired it remains a testimony to the Word even as the Word existed long before the bible. I would be interested to know what God has put on your heart in as succinct a manner as you are able to describe. Or if not, peace be unto you for I know all is in God's hands as well.

[OldEnglishSheepdog]

God has revealed a lot of knowledge in my heart, mind and soul that is far beyond what any religious person could ever understand. Deity has nothing to do with God. That is a religious word to make sinners feel special. There are many religious words that have nothing to do with God.

I am new to this forum, but what you say I can understand in some perspective. Others here form another perspective disagree with you. I do believe there are semantics that cause misunderstandings. All things are God

Nope, that's pantheism.

I'm sorry to have to tell you this, but that's New Age Mysticism, which really just means a re-packaging of ancient paganism - there's nothing really 'new' about it "What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun" (Ecc. 1:9).

and all existence can be interpreted as grace.

No, it's by grace, but isn't itself grace. That distinction is critical.

While the bible is inspired it remains a testimony to the Word even as the Word existed long before the bible.

But that's not what our Gnostic friend was saying at all.

I would be interested to know what God has put on your heart in as succinct a manner as you are able to describe.

That person's been banned, so you may not get a chance to ask - but I can provide an answer on their behalf (although gs probably wouldn't agree)... "No."

What that person was describing was heresy, condemning the Bible and elevating delusions of their own imagination, warned against by God in many, many places:

We are to "Have nothing to do with godless myths and old wives' tales" (1 Tim. 4:7), and we're told that with those who "devote themselves to myths" (1 Tim 1:4) and "became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools" (Romans 1:20-22), "having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with them" (2 Tim 3:5).

"We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ" (2 Cor. 10:5).

"If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, he is conceited and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions. Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself" (1 Tim 6:3-5).

Or if not, peace be unto you for I know all is in God's hands as well.

While this is true, "It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God" (Hebrews 10:31).

Edited March 17, 2011 by OldEnglishSheepdog

[xequedox]

We are told that for willful sin after salvation 'there remaineth no sacrifice, but a certain dread, looking for judgment........'

That is a misrepresentation of the passage.

Thank goodness

> willful l< accepting terms and obligations to the pertaining thing while full knowing what will happen through the action of cause and the later effect. >_>

[childeye]

God has revealed a lot of knowledge in my heart, mind and soul that is far beyond what any religious person could ever understand. Deity has nothing to do with God. That is a religious word to make sinners feel special. There are many religious words that have nothing to do with God.

I am new to this forum, but what you say I can understand in some perspective. Others here form another perspective disagree with you. I do believe there are semantics that cause misunderstandings. All things are God

Nope, that's pantheism.

I'm sorry to have to tell you this, but that's New Age Mysticism, which really just means a re-packaging of ancient paganism - there's nothing really 'new' about it "What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun" (Ecc. 1:9).

and all existence can be interpreted as grace.

No, it's by grace, but isn't itself grace. That distinction is critical.

While the bible is inspired it remains a testimony to the Word even as the Word existed long before the bible.

But that's not what our Gnostic friend was saying at all.

I would be interested to know what God has put on your heart in as succinct a manner as you are able to describe.

That person's been banned, so you may not get a chance to ask - but I can provide an answer on their behalf (although gs probably wouldn't agree)... "No."

What that person was describing was heresy, condemning the Bible and elevating delusions of their own imagination, warned against by God in many, many places:

We are to "Have nothing to do with godless myths and old wives' tales" (1 Tim. 4:7), and we're told that with those who "devote themselves to myths" (1 Tim 1:4) and "became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools" (Romans 1:20-22), "having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with them" (2 Tim 3:5).

"We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ" (2 Cor. 10:5).

"If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, he is conceited and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions. Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself" (1 Tim 6:3-5).

Or if not, peace be unto you for I know all is in God's hands as well.

While this is true, "It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God" (Hebrews 10:31).

Dear Old English Sheepdog, Thanks for the advice, I don't know what Pantheism is. I do know however that I can preach this guy the gospel even as it is on my heart to preach it to all, that they might be set free. There is a way because the Truth is self-evident. Truth is not impotent. If the Truth had no power to destroy lies, why does the devil kill all those who preach it? I was simply looking for a backdoor. I certainly feel stupid however finding out this guy will never respond.

[OldEnglishSheepdog]

Dear Old English Sheepdog, Thanks for the advice, I don't know what Pantheism is.

The pagan idea that the Universe and God are inseperable.

Differentiating between Creator and creation is key in giving God the glory (Romans 1:20-25).

I do know however that I can preach this guy the gospel even as it is on my heart to preach it to all, that they might be set free.

But we haven't talked about the gospel. The 'gospel' means the 'good news' which refers directly to the good news that although all have sinned and deserve death (Romans 5:12), God came in the flesh (John chapter 1, Isaiah 53) to atone for our sins (Romans 3:25) by living a sinless life (Hebrews 4:15) and voluntarily assuming the punishment of sin to conquer the curse of sin and it's wages of death (Romans 6:23) so that all who repent (Acts 2:38) of their sins, and believe in their heart and confess with their mouth what God has done for then in the name of Jesus (Romans 10:9) they will be given the free gift (Romans 5:15) of salvation in the name of Jesus and by that name alone (Acts 4:12) by faith in grace, not by works (Ephesians 2:8-9).

That’s the gospel, but that wasn’t really what we were talking about.

There is a way because the Truth is self-evident.

I submit that this isn’t strictly accurate, “For now we see through a glass, darkly” (1 Cor. 13:12).

“For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,” declares the LORD. “As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts” (Isaiah 55:8-9).

God’s word is the Truth (John 17:17).

Truth is not impotent.

Most certainly not, but it’s God’s word that is truth, and is powerful “"Is not my word like fire," declares the LORD, "and like a hammer that breaks a rock in pieces?” (Jeremiah 23:29).

If the Truth had no power to destroy lies, why does the devil kill all those who preach it?

Well, he doesn’t, but as for the point you’re making, again it is God’s word that’s the truth and has the power to destroy lies “Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee” (Psalm 119:11), and it’s by His word that we “We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ” (2 Corinthians 10:5).

The important distinction here continues to be that these are things that are true of God’s word (the truth) and not of our own imaginings.

The individual here was saying that these things are lies and their own personal experiences were truth.

I was simply looking for a backdoor. I certainly feel stupid however finding out this guy will never respond.

Don’t sweat it, I responded to a banned guy on another thread recently too. Just because they can’t post doesn’t mean they won’t read the responses.

Edited March 18, 2011 by OldEnglishSheepdog

[childeye]

='OldEnglishSheepdog' timestamp='1300462794' post='1659909']

The pagan idea that the Universe and God are inseperable Differentiating between Creator and creation is key in giving God the glory (Romans 1:20-25). .

I know there is a difference between creator and creation yet they are inseperable in the sense that the creator created it. His attributes are seen in the creation. I have no problem with anything you say but I do sense semantics of words coming into play.

name='childeye' timestamp='1300423538' post='1659814']

There is a way because the Truth is self-evident.

I submit that this isnt strictly accurate, For now we see through a glass, darkly (1 Cor. 13:12).

I see your point, however Love God with all your heart mind and soul and your neighbor as yourself is self-evident truth. Once again semantics.

Gods word is the Truth (John 17:17).

I agree and also add His Truth is Spirit and a personification of the creator or revelation of the creator. I quoted His Word above.

name='childeye' timestamp='1300423538' post='1659814']

Truth is not impotent.

Most certainly not, but its Gods word that is truth, and is powerful "Is not my word like fire," declares the LORD, "and like a hammer that breaks a rock in pieces? (Jeremiah 23:29).

No argument from me here. Knowledge is not made up as we go, truth must precede our existance so that we may discover and learn our way out of ignorance. Again this is self-evident truth and evidence of God.

name='childeye' timestamp='1300423538' post='1659814']If the Truth had no power to destroy lies, why does the devil kill all those who preach it?

Well, he doesnt,

Again I suspect semantics are at play. Perhaps I should have said, Satan desires to silence the Truth and is willing to kill to do so. For it is crystal clear to me that those who preach the gospel are willing to die to preach it, while those in darkness are willing to kill to silence it. Again self evident truth. Compare Saul and Paul.

but as for the point youre making, again it is Gods word thats the truth and has the power to destroy lies Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee (Psalm 119:11), and its by His word that we We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ (2 Corinthians 10:5).

Now you and I may be finding common ground despite our semantics, since to me this is what I mean by self-evident. One could not demolish arguments against the knowledge of God or take captive every thought if it were not so. The word of God is a sharp two edged sword.

The important distinction here continues to be that these are things that are true of Gods word (the truth) and not of our own imaginings.

The individual here was saying that these things are lies and their own personal experiences were truth.

Once again I see your point and am thankful for your sincere concern. To address your concern is right now my motive. This individual was clearly lost and I knew that. I wished to disarm him, for it is so easy for Satan to turn people away from the gospel, by portraying Christians as people who are blind followers of another religion. If I could gain some measure of trust with the guy, I could use the self-evident qualities of the gospel to persuade him to Christ. That is why his response was necessary and vital. If an unbeliever senses anything other than love and understanding, they will be repelled. I hope I addressed your concerns with me. Thanks for your responses.

Edited March 18, 2011 by childeye

[OldEnglishSheepdog]

Thanks childeye.

See you around the forum!