808state Posted February 6, 2011 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 133 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 1 Joined: 01/19/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted February 6, 2011 Could you point me in the direction of verifiable first hand accounts? Yes; Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. And as if this were not enough; Ac 26:12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthitjah Posted February 6, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 1,285 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 17,917 Content Per Day: 2.27 Reputation: 355 Days Won: 19 Joined: 10/01/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted February 6, 2011 Could you point me in the direction of verifiable first hand accounts? Yes; Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. And as if this were not enough; Ac 26:12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthitjah Posted February 6, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 1,285 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 17,917 Content Per Day: 2.27 Reputation: 355 Days Won: 19 Joined: 10/01/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted February 6, 2011 Could you point me in the direction of verifiable first hand accounts? Yes; Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. And as if this were not enough; Ac 26:12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorningGlory Posted February 6, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1,022 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 39,193 Content Per Day: 6.10 Reputation: 9,977 Days Won: 78 Joined: 10/01/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted February 6, 2011 Could you point me in the direction of verifiable first hand accounts? Yes; Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. And as if this were not enough; Ac 26:12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted February 6, 2011 Share Posted February 6, 2011 shiloh357, on 04 February 2011 - 01:12 PM, said: When you say "writers" who are you referring to? Matthew, John, Mark, Luke, etc. Assuming these were infact the men that actually wrote the New Testament. It seems a bit unclear. Okay, so what do you mean that they "fleshed" out Jesus? I would say that most people have lied at some point in there life so I don't know if it's that unbelievable that someone who has lied has also had something worthy to say. I mean, look at politicians. As far as lunatics go, I think if we're just talking mentally unstable/ill, then I have met people who would fit that label that had some worthy things to say. The problem is that liars cannot be trusted and lunatics are out of their mind. Liars and lunatics don't teach what Jesus taught. So far, Jesus' claims continue to stand unrefuted though men have tried over the centuries to debunk His claims. Well, Muhammed did claim to be a miracle worker... But, again, I was using Buddha and Muhammed as examples of men who claimed to have some sort of supernatural characteristic about them. The difference is that Jesus did not merely make claims. Jesus healed sickness, delivered the spiritually oppressed and possessed. He excersized personal power over nature and over death. Furthermore Jesus claimed to be God and the giver of eternal life. Buddhism is nothing but a path to nothingness. Mohammed and Buddha are still in their graves. Again, you really cannnot compare the claims of Christ to that of Buddha or Mohammed. Jesus' claims are rooted in historical and geographic fact and eyewitness accounts. Jesus did not merely make claims. He backed His claims up with corresponding evidence and action. Understand, my point of view (which i'm sure you very much disagree with), is a little different from yours. I don't believe anyone who have claimed to perform miracles, so as far as I'm concerned, Jesus and the Greek gods are in the same boat in that regard (for now anyway). I understand that. I also understand it is easier to make broad, inaccurate, over-generalized comaprisons like that, than it is to actually engage the Bible to see if those assumptions actually hold water. My point is that upon careful examination, your view that Jesus and and the Greek gods are in the same boat is factually/historically wrong. But then some people would rather believe something if even if it is wrong if the alternative means coming to grips with any truth that makes them uncomfortable and offends their pride. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 6, 2011 Share Posted February 6, 2011 .... Right. That's a simple enough answer. So, this is how it works: Nonbelievers are essentially not going to find any of the answers they're looking for outside of the Bible. They have to put their guards down, and then take a leap of faith. It would be one's heart, not their mind, that ultimately leads them to the Bible, correct?.... Leap? But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. 2 Corinthians 4:3-4 Faith Is Evidence Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1 Not Some Great Righteous Marvel A Fellow Does And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief. Mark 9:24 So He Can Strut About And Boast But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world. Galatians 6:14 But A Priceless Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 1 Peter 1:18-19 Gift For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. Ephesians 2:8-9 ____________ Are You Seeking To Know The Living God Personally? I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. John 14:18 After Asking God In Jesus Name To Show Himself And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. John 14:13 Read The Bible Remaining Determined The same came therefore to Philip, which was of Bethsaida of Galilee, and desired him, saying, Sir, we would see Jesus. John 21:21 To Stand Fast On What And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart. Jeremiah 29:13 He Shows You And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you. Then saith he to Thomas, reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. John 20:26-28 ____________ Believe For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:16-18 And Be Blessed Beloved For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. Romans 8:15 Love, Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
808state Posted February 7, 2011 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 133 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 1 Joined: 01/19/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted February 7, 2011 The first hand testimonies found in the Bible are the ones I was offering to show to you and they are admissable as evidence in a court of Law. These folks wrote down what they saw and experienced as an account. Here's something a little more interesting; Lu 1:1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
808state Posted February 7, 2011 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 133 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 1 Joined: 01/19/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted February 7, 2011 Okay, so what do you mean that they "fleshed" out Jesus? I'm not saying they did for sure, but it does seem to be a possibility. Considering there is very little on Jesus outside of the Bible, I don't believe we can know for sure what is and isn't true about Jesus. For all I know, the writers of the Bible could have used artistic license with his story, and added parts that didn't actually happen. The problem is that liars cannot be trusted and lunatics are out of their mind. Liars and lunatics don't teach what Jesus taught. So far, Jesus' claims continue to stand unrefuted though men have tried over the centuries to debunk His claims. Fair enough. But then I have to ask the question, were his teachings original? Certainly a liar or a "lunatic" (and I'm not saying he was entirely either) would be able to rehash teachings that they learnt from others. I'm not sure if it's possible to debunk his claims with the information we currently have. So, you're right, it'd be silly to try. The difference is that Jesus did not merely make claims. Jesus healed sickness, delivered the spiritually oppressed and possessed. He excersized personal power over nature and over death. Furthermore Jesus claimed to be God and the giver of eternal life. Buddhism is nothing but a path to nothingness. Mohammed and Buddha are still in their graves. Again, you really cannnot compare the claims of Christ to that of Buddha or Mohammed. Jesus' claims are rooted in historical and geographic fact and eyewitness accounts. Jesus did not merely make claims. He backed His claims up with corresponding evidence and action. I understand that you are very confident in your beliefs, but I'm not. As far as I know, tell me if I'm wrong, there is about as much evidence for the supernatural aspects of Jesus as there is for the supernatural aspects of Mohammed. I understand that. I also understand it is easier to make broad, inaccurate, over-generalized comaprisons like that, than it is to actually engage the Bible to see if those assumptions actually hold water. My point is that upon careful examination, your view that Jesus and and the Greek gods are in the same boat is factually/historically wrong. But then some people would rather believe something if even if it is wrong if the alternative means coming to grips with any truth that makes them uncomfortable and offends their pride. Perhaps you misunderstood me. For the sake of clarification: Jesus and the Greek gods are, for me, in the same boat as far as their supernatural characteristics go. I was simply stating what I personally believe. I don't see how I was over-generalizing at all. Also, I am here for me. Not for anyone else. I don't expect to change people's minds nor do I care to. If I'm wrong about something, then I will admit to it. It would be pointless for me to not to. I'm sure you will come out of this discussion stronger in your own views. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 The first hand testimonies found in the Bible are the ones I was offering to show to you and they are admissable as evidence in a court of Law. These folks wrote down what they saw and experienced as an account. Here's something a little more interesting; Luke 1:1 Since many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us, Luke 1:2 Even as they delivered them unto us, who from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word; Luke 1:3 It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto you in order, most excellent Theophilus, Men came along later, like Dr. Luke, and heard this eyewitness testimony second hand and decided to seek out the people who had given such testimony so as to codify it. In the Gospel of Luke he gives record to what these eyewitnesses saw and experienced.The Bible is a verifiable source. Luke gives testimony and record to what the eyewitnesses saw, examined, and experienced. When I stated that it was the life that you've longed to experience and live. I was stating that you long for and desire a life with meaning much like Paul's. We all do. Peace, Dave.... Right. Personally, I guess a hurdle I have with this is that we don't seem to have any other accounts outside of the Bible to verify certain things within the Bible. It's at that point that I become skeptical.... Skeptical Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? Genesis 3:1 Seems Unwise For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones. Isaiah 57:15 When One Knows The LORD But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the LORD. Jeremiah 9:24 You See And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. 1 Timothy 3:16 See? For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16 >>>>>()<<<<< Believe Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? 1 John 5:5 And Be Blessed Beloved Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God? He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him? And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee. And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him. And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind. John 9:35-39 Love, Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthitjah Posted February 7, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 1,285 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 17,917 Content Per Day: 2.27 Reputation: 355 Days Won: 19 Joined: 10/01/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted February 7, 2011 For all I know, the writers of the Bible could have used artistic license with his story, and added parts that didn't actually happen. I think I asked this prior, but to what end? Do men willingly leave their lives or die for a scoundrel? What possessed Paul, a seemingly intelligent man by any account, to give up his position and power for a life of hardship and a martry's death? Were they in it for the fame and the fortune? (They didn't receive any) Were they motivated by Christ's personal magnetism and the huge success of His Ministry? (Which by any worldly account failed miserably) Most liars lie for gain and you seem to be saying that the first hand accounts that we have were motivated by some personal gain. What was the gain? Peace, Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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