Denomination

[LessThan Any]

What if two people disagree about what the Word says and claim a different intepretation from the Holy Spirit?

This not only happens with 2 or more, but, unfortunately, also within a single person:

"Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be." James 3:10

It ought not to be, but we know as James indicates that it is so even in people who claim to be serving God and who claim to have the Holy Ghost in them.

The problem is that until we become overcomers of our own world of the flesh as Jesus overcame His, we continue in some measure to be double-minded. The new man may be alive within us, but the old man is not yet completely dead and this old fellow continues to press to retain or re-establish his dominion within you and me.

So what is the answer? The answer, I believe, is to learn to always recognize the voice of God in our hearts as opposed to other voices, which are also speaking to us.

[OldEnglishSheepdog]

1 Cor 11

29For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself.

I can see what is says chesterton. We can all see what it says.

Chestertonrules:

Paul said that we must recognize the body and blood of Jesus in the sacrament.

And Jesus also said He was a door, didn't He?

Since I already pointed that out and you chose to ignore all the points I brought up to return to the dogma you regurgitate earlier, like a dog returning to its vomit, I'd like to thank you for demonstrating to everyone here how in order to believe what you do you have to ignore everything sensible, turn off your mind and swallow wholesale nonsense that you're only capable of throwing back up again and again.

Obviously, you can't see what it says. You are blinded by your man made dogma.

O right.

And what dogma is that by the way, chesterton?

Please tell me what official dogma I follow?

We know for a fact that you vehemently defend the dogma of the Roman Catholic Church, but pray tell, what is my official dogma?

Where is it published?

What does it say?

Who developed that dogma, and what submission and allegiance have I made to uphold that dogma?

Since you are a Catholic and the Roman Catholic Church freely admits that it has an extra-Biblical dogma that its adherence are obligated to defend, and I have no such obligation then your comment is foolish.

It's sad that in order to defend that Catholic dogma you choose to present yourself as a fool who can't deal with the topic but can only turn back the charges of which you're guilty to others who have displayed no such guilt.

And all so you can worship a cracker, make idols to the Queen of Heaven, bow down to those idols, boast in human leaders and call earthly men father.

You defy the Bible and all you get out of it is the excuse to defy the Bible all the more.

Well, fine. Do what you want. But chesterton, in case you hadn't noticed, I've been trying to stop you from hanging a millstone around your neck and casting yourself in the ocean.

If you want to pretend to believe this foolish paganism, then I can't stop you, but I will continue to point out how you're making a fool of yourself because you're slandering God's word by your foolishness.

The word is sound doctrine and you're turning to fables and commandments of men:

"Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers. For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision (the Law): Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake... This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith; Not giving heed to... fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth... They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate" (Titus 1)

[OldEnglishSheepdog]

That's not the answer Jesus gave us:

Matt 18

16 But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ 17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

O please.

Since we've been over this passage and over it again, you're simply a liar.

The context of this passage, once again, is when someone has sinned against someone else and will not apologize and make amends.

That you're so unashamedly raping this passage by violating its context again shows your willingness to do terrible violence to God's word for the sake of your supposed Church.

It's revolting.

[OldEnglishSheepdog]

That's not the answer Jesus gave us:

Matt 18

16 But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ 17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

O please.

Since we've been over this passage and over it again, you're simply a liar.

The context of this passage, once again, is when someone has sinned against someone else and will not apologize and make amends.

That you're so unashamedly raping this passage by violating its context again shows your willingness to do terrible violence to God's word for the sake of your supposed Church.

It's revolting.

You crack me up. I post scripture, you call me a liar.

Obviously not because you posted scripture, but because you lied about what the scripture means. That's why you're a liar. Because of the lies you tell about scripture.

Jesus established a Church,... blah blah blah

I'm sorry, why are you changing the subject?

As soon as you're cornered in your lies it's always the same lines.

We've heard them. We've refuted them.

Get some new material.

You don't want to be accountable to this authority. I get it.

You get it less than anyone I've ever met.

Continue to lean on your own understanding if it stokes your pride, but don't call me a liar for posting the crystal clear words of scripture.

I already explained why I am calling you a liar and that's not the reason I gave.

I'm calling you a liar because you lie about the crystal clear words of scripture that say not to bow down to graven images like your Queen of Heaven, and not to worship creation instead of the Creator like the crackers and wine you worship, and then you pretend the reason why is because you can't understand something that everyone can understand.

So you're even lying about why I'm calling you a liar now? You just can't help yourself, can you?

Thanks again for making it easy to see what so wrong with what you're saying!

[OldEnglishSheepdog]

You called me a liar because you can't offer a rational rebuttal.

Your only recourse is to ignore scripture.

O really?

So you already forgot that I posted this, which you totally failed to address:

1 Cor 11

29For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself.

I can see what is says chesterton. We can all see what it says.

And what it does not say is 'give the worship that belongs to God alone to a cracker and some wine like a common pagan throwing yourself down in adoration of creation instead of the Almighty Creator', ignoring pretty much all of the affirmative statements in scripture in favour of some flimsy pretense of an inference.

I agree with the verse, and I disagree with the nonsense that you seem to see instead of the verse.

This verse follows the verse "Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord" (1 Cor. 11:27).

He gave His body and His blood for us on the cross and we're supposed to take communion in remembrance of the fact that He gave (past tense) His body and His blood for us.

If His body and blood were being given in the communion, then the cross would not matter, only the Last Supper would have mattered, but despite Jesus' prayer in the garden that that cup (being the crucifixion which is the metaphor of the wine in the spilling of Christ's blood on the cross, you see - not of his pouring the fruit of the vine into a cup) be taken from Him if possible, it was not taken from Him, so it was not possible that the remission of sins came unless His blood was actually spilt and His Body actually broken, so to the cross He went.

If we partake in the symbol of acceptance of what Christ did for us on the cross unworthily (without appreciation for what He gave to us) then we scorn that sacrifice of His body and His blood, broken and spilled on the cross, because "I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!” (Galatians 2:20-21).* Footnote

That's the whole metaphor. It doesn't mean recognize that the bread is His body literally in some magical mystery that can't actually be recognized or confirmed by any appearance or study - that's totally senseless in the context (not to mention logically incoherent).

It means simply recognize that His body was given for us, which is so clear from the text you couldn't honestly miss it or mistake it any more than you could any of the other times Jesus used such language. "But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent's cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ" (2 Cor. 11:3). Is Jesus actually a door? Is he actually a fountain? Is the Holy Spirit actually water? Is the Kingdom of Heaven a vineyard? Are we actually sheep?

Are you actually confused about very, very simple concepts or do you really just love lies that command you to worship bread and fruit? You are participating in pagan worship of creation rather than Creator, you are making bread and pouring out drink offerings to other deities by making graven images of the Queen of heaven and bowing down to them, and performing blasphemous ceremonies with bread and wine that God did not instruct.

"You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them " (Exodus 20: 4-5).

"The prophets prophesy lies, the priests rule by their own authority, and my people love it this way" (Jeremiah 5:31)

"... women knead the dough and make cakes of bread for the Queen of Heaven. They pour out drink offerings to other gods to provoke me to anger" (Jer. 7:18).

"She held a golden cup in her hand, filled with abominable things and the filth of her adulteries... The name written on her forehead was a mystery: BABYLON THE GREAT THE MOTHER OF PROSTITUTES AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH... In her heart she boasts, 'I sit as queen" (Rev. 17/18)

In every other context you don't even pause to realize that Jesus is not really a door and the kingdom of heaven isn't really a vineyard and we're not in some mysterious way actually sheep with the appearance of people.

Your foolish pretense of misunderstanding scripture does not excuse your paganism.

-------------------------------------

* (Note: This, or course, could not possibly mean that therefore Jesus was instituting a New Law of sacraments, as the Roman Catholic Church asserts and which centres around the pretense of misunderstanding communion, since this passage makes it clear that Christ came to free us from the Law, not institute a new Law as though God erred in His Law given to Moses, as we see in the context of the passage: "We who are Jews by birth and not sinful Gentiles know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in[d] Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified" (Galatians 2:15-16).

Did that just... slip your mind?

[nChrist]

I repeat Chesterton...

Instead of arguing about the 'church', perhaps it would be more beneficial to be preach Christ?

It is not enough to preach Christ if you are distorting his message. This is what many do.

How do we know if someone preaching Christ is preaching truth?

We should be like the noble Bereans and search the Scriptures to see if what we're being told is true or false. God's Word is the authority, not some man or group of men. FALSE TEACHERS don't like this because they get exposed for what they are.

[nChrist]

That's not the answer Jesus gave us:

Matt 18

16 But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ 17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

O please.

Since we've been over this passage and over it again, you're simply a liar.

The context of this passage, once again, is when someone has sinned against someone else and will not apologize and make amends.

That you're so unashamedly raping this passage by violating its context again shows your willingness to do terrible violence to God's word for the sake of your supposed Church.

It's revolting.

You crack me up. I post scripture, you call me a liar.

Jesus established a Church, ie. an assembly with leaders who were given his authority. He told us that the ultimate authority for our faith is the Church.

You don't want to be accountable to this authority. I get it. Continue to lean on your own understanding if it stokes your pride, but don't call me a liar for posting the crystal clear words of scripture.

The opposite is actually true in many cases. FALSE TEACHERS don't want to be held accountable to the Scriptures. This is especially true for the Catholic church.

[ncn]

I have been following this thread for some time now.

It appears to me that it has become out of control.

It’s almost as if both sides have blown their tops and are almost at the point of anger and almost have a hate for each other;

which I admit is a strong word and perhapse misused.

In John 13:34-35 (NIV)

We read, “34 “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35, By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”

Sadly, in my humble opinion; the love has gone out of this thread.

If you go back and read all the post from start to the latest, this thread is not a very good example to put forward Christ who died for us.

The Christ that shed His blood and for God that gave His only begotten son to die for our sins.

Jesus said, I am the way the Truth and the Light. In my opinion we loose that light if we fight in anger with someone that disagrees with our views be it doctrinal or way of worship.

Anger is never without an argument, but seldom with a good one. This is what the thread has turned into.

It saddens me.

Just my two pence worth for what it’s worth. (And yes probably not much)

Nigel.

Edited October 14, 2011 by ncn

[Guest]

Mercy

It is of the LORD's mercies that we are not consumed, because his compassions fail not. They are new every morning: great is thy faithfulness. Lamentations 3:22-23

And Grace

Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. Hebrews 12:2

It's All Of Jesus

[j102]

That's not the answer Jesus gave us:

Matt 18

16 But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ 17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

O please.

Since we've been over this passage and over it again, you're simply a liar.

The context of this passage, once again, is when someone has sinned against someone else and will not apologize and make amends.

That you're so unashamedly raping this passage by violating its context again shows your willingness to do terrible violence to God's word for the sake of your supposed Church.

It's revolting.

You crack me up. I post scripture, you call me a liar.

Jesus established a Church, ie. an assembly with leaders who were given his authority. He told us that the ultimate authority for our faith is the Church.

You don't want to be accountable to this authority. I get it. Continue to lean on your own understanding if it stokes your pride, but don't call me a liar for posting the crystal clear words of scripture.

Chesterton, can you give me the chapter and verse where it states "that the ultimate authority for our faith is the Church." i think the ULTIMATE authority is CHRIST himself. there shouldnt even be file and rank in the body of christ as we are all equal before God.