undone Posted February 20, 2011 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 45 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 819 Content Per Day: 0.13 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/01/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted February 20, 2011 I've often read many threads debating old earth vs. new earth. There have plenty of questions regarding the plausibility of the biblical accounts of things like 6 day creation, Noah's flood, and Joshua's long day. What I don't see is anyone stopping to consider the very fact that God simply spoke and created the universe and life. Whether your OEC, YEC, agnostic or atheist, it amazes me that we can engage in debates over many of the supernatural accounts of the bible and not realize we are speaking of a God who simply spoke everything into existence. I believe you have to stop and realize any God who can speak something into existence is capable of ANYTHING in any time frame. Whether that be flooding the earth and keeping a boat full of people and animals alive, to slowing time, or creating the universe in 6 days with the light from the stars already in place. Whether or not you wonder if those events are ever plausible, keep in mind that with a word a creator that powerful can do anything He wants. I realize that doesn't sell the skeptic on faith, but I also think it's silly to argue these items. This leaves us with two main topics to debate and/or explore: (1) Did the universe create itself or is there evidence of design? (2) Is Jesus who he said he was and if so, should we not consider following the faith He advocated? I also realize that those two topics will probably not get settled here and that some are only here because they just love to argue but is there not any validity to my position? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorningGlory Posted February 21, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1,022 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 39,193 Content Per Day: 6.10 Reputation: 9,977 Days Won: 78 Joined: 10/01/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted February 21, 2011 I've often read many threads debating old earth vs. new earth. There have plenty of questions regarding the plausibility of the biblical accounts of things like 6 day creation, Noah's flood, and Joshua's long day. What I don't see is anyone stopping to consider the very fact that God simply spoke and created the universe and life. Well, if you consider that possibility as truth than there is nothing to debate or really even to discuss on the age of the Earth or universe. Anything we observe or notice can be blown off as 'Yeah, so? God can do anything, it doesn't matter what the evidence says, God just did it that way'. Whether your OEC, YEC, agnostic or atheist, it amazes me that we can engage in debates over many of the supernatural accounts of the bible and not realize we are speaking of a God who simply spoke everything into existence. I believe you have to stop and realize any God who can speak something into existence is capable of ANYTHING in any time frame. Whether that be flooding the earth and keeping a boat full of people and animals alive, to slowing time, or creating the universe in 6 days with the light from the stars already in place. Whether or not you wonder if those events are ever plausible, keep in mind that with a word a creator that powerful can do anything He wants. Take the story of Noah for example. Not to be mean, but there's really no good evidence from the natural world that such a story ever took place. For example, how did all the indigenous plants and animals get to where they are today from the Ark; how did the Kangaroos (for example) cross the Ocean to Australia? That is a real problem with the validity of the story. But once you propose that God can do anything and just did it the way he did, you are explaining everything by explaining nothing. Another example, perhaps better, is the starlight you talked about. As light travels across space, it elongates and becomes redshifted, which scientists can then measure. Scientists have observed a very specific pattern in the distance to the star/galaxy and the amount that it is redshifted. For all the evidence in the world, it really does look like the light from other stars and even galaxies took thousand, millions and even billions of years to get here and the light did pass through all that space (especially once you get into emission and absorption spectrums). But, since God can do anything He just decided to put that all "in place" despite that none of it actually happened; God just did it that way. I also realize that those two topics will probably not get settled here and that some are only here because they just love to argue but is there not any validity to my position? It is certainly possible that God just did it that way. However I see that position as one with a deceptive God, and I do not believe in a deceptive God. So I don't think that it is a very good avenue of discussion in the debate over the age question or other rather large miracles like the flood. It is a position that essentially says that evidence doesn't matter, as God can do anything and make it look like anything despite doing something completely different. So I would be careful in how you use this position. D-9 In case no one has told you....God DOES do things His way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Believer112 Posted February 21, 2011 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 39 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 540 Content Per Day: 0.11 Reputation: 32 Days Won: 3 Joined: 09/06/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/29/1960 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Here is a little information of the flood and some other wild stuff on ancient technology. Adam was intelligent because he named all the animals in a day. Noah 1 Corinthian 3: 19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 In case no one has told you....God DOES do things His way. All I'm saying is that coming into a discussion about miracles that would/should leave some sort of physical trace (like a global flood) or something like the age of the Earth/universe with the idea that God can do anything; God spoke and the whole universe was set up just the way it is, is sort of a pointless proposition in the debate. If The Truth Is A Pointless Proposition For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 2 Peter 3:5-6 Why Debate Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called: Mercy unto you, and peace, and love, be multiplied. Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not. And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities. Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee. But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves. Jude 1:1-10 Why Indeed The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. John 3:35-36 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorningGlory Posted February 23, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1,022 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 39,193 Content Per Day: 6.10 Reputation: 9,977 Days Won: 78 Joined: 10/01/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted February 23, 2011 All I'm saying is that coming into a discussion about miracles that would/should leave some sort of physical trace (like a global flood) or something like the age of the Earth/universe with the idea that God can do anything; God spoke and the whole universe was set up just the way it is, is sort of a pointless proposition in the debate. It's pointless to YOU but, to a believer, God is in charge.....not all of you 'scientists'. You should really just make peace with that because it's not going to change. Nor will you ever change ONE believer's mind about this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
undone Posted February 23, 2011 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 45 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 819 Content Per Day: 0.13 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/01/2006 Status: Offline Author Share Posted February 23, 2011 I've often read many threads debating old earth vs. new earth. There have plenty of questions regarding the plausibility of the biblical accounts of things like 6 day creation, Noah's flood, and Joshua's long day. What I don't see is anyone stopping to consider the very fact that God simply spoke and created the universe and life. Well, if you consider that possibility as truth than there is nothing to debate or really even to discuss on the age of the Earth or universe. Anything we observe or notice can be blown off as 'Yeah, so? God can do anything, it doesn't matter what the evidence says, God just did it that way'. Whether your OEC, YEC, agnostic or atheist, it amazes me that we can engage in debates over many of the supernatural accounts of the bible and not realize we are speaking of a God who simply spoke everything into existence. I believe you have to stop and realize any God who can speak something into existence is capable of ANYTHING in any time frame. Whether that be flooding the earth and keeping a boat full of people and animals alive, to slowing time, or creating the universe in 6 days with the light from the stars already in place. Whether or not you wonder if those events are ever plausible, keep in mind that with a word a creator that powerful can do anything He wants. Take the story of Noah for example. Not to be mean, but there's really no good evidence from the natural world that such a story ever took place. For example, how did all the indigenous plants and animals get to where they are today from the Ark; how did the Kangaroos (for example) cross the Ocean to Australia? That is a real problem with the validity of the story. But once you propose that God can do anything and just did it the way he did, you are explaining everything by explaining nothing. Another example, perhaps better, is the starlight you talked about. As light travels across space, it elongates and becomes redshifted, which scientists can then measure. Scientists have observed a very specific pattern in the distance to the star/galaxy and the amount that it is redshifted. For all the evidence in the world, it really does look like the light from other stars and even galaxies took thousand, millions and even billions of years to get here and the light did pass through all that space (especially once you get into emission and absorption spectrums). But, since God can do anything He just decided to put that all "in place" despite that none of it actually happened; God just did it that way. I also realize that those two topics will probably not get settled here and that some are only here because they just love to argue but is there not any validity to my position? It is certainly possible that God just did it that way. However I see that position as one with a deceptive God, and I do not believe in a deceptive God. So I don't think that it is a very good avenue of discussion in the debate over the age question or other rather large miracles like the flood. It is a position that essentially says that evidence doesn't matter, as God can do anything and make it look like anything despite doing something completely different. So I would be careful in how you use this position. D-9 D-9 Thank you for your reply. I understand what you are trying to say with regards to the evidence of what is observed. If you have ever heard of Dr. Hugh Ross of Reasons to Believe, he says that if the evidence doesn't fit your model, change your model. While I find his work interesting and valuable to the advancement of apologetics, I'm not necessarily challenged by the current evidence versus the biblical account. I allow room for the idea that we have yet to discover all there is to discover about our universe, life, and what is contained in the Word of God. But that's me. What does challenge me is that the universe as we see it was created by the spoken Word of God. It's hard for me to wrap my human mind around this idea. Yet when I see the complexity of life and the design of the universe appear to be arranged to support that life on this planet, it seems to be the most logical conclusion. At least more logical than random chance bringing all the factors together. So Christians believe they hold the answer as revealed by God through His word and His son Jesus. Which leads me to examine the biblical account of His life and the claims He makes. If He is who He said He is, it validates the rest of the account and the message He advocated. So what validates Jesus is who He said He is? The answer appears to be in accounts of Jesus fulfilling prophecy foretold of Him thousands of years beforehand, the wisdom of His message, the signs and wonders He performed, and the fulfillment of prophecies given by Him prior to His death and resurrection. In addition, the testimony of His followers of the work Christ has done in their life. I don't doubt that we as humans can mis-interpret what was written, Jesus corrected many of the people in that time whose job it was to know the scriptures inside and out. Thus the wiggle room I leave for what we see in universe and the biblical account. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldEnglishSheepdog Posted February 23, 2011 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 844 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 118 Days Won: 11 Joined: 12/23/2010 Status: Offline Share Posted February 23, 2011 Yet when I see the complexity of life and the design of the universe appear to be arranged to support that life on this planet, it seems to be the most logical conclusion I wonder which one of the following conclusions sounds more logical: 1) The universe and this planet are arranged to support life and us 2) Life and us are arranged to adapt to this universe and this planet I read this recently and I am also not sure anymore what applies. There is absolutely no evidence to support the conclusion that life can be sustained under any but the most delicate of circumstances, any change of which by even a hair's breath, and conditions cease to be life permissive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldEnglishSheepdog Posted February 23, 2011 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 844 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 118 Days Won: 11 Joined: 12/23/2010 Status: Offline Share Posted February 23, 2011 Did God have any choice in defining these laws? (A. Einstein) Possibly, but it's irrelevant, as I've outlined in a previous conversation: viole, could you do me a favour and read this post that I wrote about the cumulative case for Christianity for another poster? I know a bit about some of your perspectives now and this will provide you some of mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldEnglishSheepdog Posted February 23, 2011 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 844 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 118 Days Won: 11 Joined: 12/23/2010 Status: Offline Share Posted February 23, 2011 (edited) Possibly, but it's irrelevant, I am sorry Old... (are you British?) No problem, and the breed of dog (Old English Sheepdog) is British. I chose the name because I think my calling is to be a kind of sheepdog, watching over the flock. but I am learning all these things very fast from the books my husband is giving me. They are all written in English and it might very well be that I misunderstand them :-( I do not think this is irrelevant. And I think you are dodging the question. If only these fine tuned laws allow life then, logically, God could not do otherwise. If, on the other hand, God had a free choice to define the laws, then you could have life in universes with completely different laws, and your argument fails. That is a bait and switch fallacy, because it's positioned as a question about the limitations of nature, but in reality it's a question about the limits of the capacity of the Creator. It's like saying that a watch isn't evidence of a watchmaker if the watchmaker could have constructed the watch in a different way. Whether a watch is mechanical or digital makes no difference, it still requires a conspicuos specific complexity and only functions if a delicate balance of conditions are met. The contraints within the material (or natural) universe make no recommendation on the possibilties for the material (natural) had the immaterial Creator supernaturally endowed the material (natural) universe with different properties in the set up. Therefore, from a theistic point of view, it is irrelevant because maybe God could have done things differently supernaturally, but this is how He chose to do it, and had he chose to do it differently, only He could have done so and only through His Almighty supernatural will. From a naturalistic (or atheistic) point of view all we can do is measure the properties of the material and gauge the capacity of the natural, and follow where the evidence lead - and the evidence is that life is very delicate and if you change any one of approximately 50 conditions that govern our universe, by even a hair's breath, the universe ceases to be life permitting. Speculating that life might possibly adapt, against all observation to the contrary, is walking away from where the evidence points, based only on a philosophical bias against walking in that direction. In short, whether or not God could have done it has no bearing on the way natural reality is actually set up to function. The question is immaterial (pun intended), because my argument is predicated only on the evidence regarding the current material universe, and if God could have set it up differently and fine tuned the conditions towards sustaining a different, but equally delicate way He set up life, then the argument remains true regardless of the particulars. Design is evidence of a designer, regardless of the capacities of the designer or the specific details of the design. Edited February 23, 2011 by OldEnglishSheepdog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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