The Rapture in 2 Thessalonians 2:3

[Dutch42]

Apostasy Greek: ἀποστασία (apostasia), a defection or revolt, from ἀπό, apo, "away, apart", στάσις, stasis, "stand", "standing") is the formal disaffiliation from or abandonment or renunciation of a religion by a person. The Apostle Paul was referring to those whose love for Christ had grown coild and allowed their "itching ears" to lead them in rejecting Christ for a lie. Pre-tribulationists like to support their dogma by using this verse, however it is not good hermaneutics. The only certain fact of the Rapture is that it will take place. We can deduce certain elements of the Rapture yet not know because the Word does not give us specifics on this. Some believe in a pretribulation rapture; some believe in a post-tribulation rapture and some believe in a mid-tribulation rapture. There are verses that, taken out of context, can be used to prove any of three theories. I personally believe in a mid-tribulation rapture and believe that Daniel and Revelation supports that stance.

The above definiton of apostasy comes from Kenneth S Wuest "Word Studeis in the New Testament". Dr. Wuest led the committee that wrote the transaltion New American Standard Bible. He was a long time Professor of Religion at Moody Bible Institute in Chicago.

My personal believe is that Jesus is coming back.. and I don't care if it is in a rapture before or after the tribulation. All is the same.. we have to point at Jesus..

[Bold Believer]

Apostasy Greek: ἀποστασία (apostasia), a defection or revolt, from ἀπό, apo, "away, apart", στάσις, stasis, "stand", "standing") is the formal disaffiliation from or abandonment or renunciation of a religion by a person. The Apostle Paul was referring to those whose love for Christ had grown coild and allowed their "itching ears" to lead them in rejecting Christ for a lie. Pre-tribulationists like to support their dogma by using this verse, however it is not good hermaneutics. The only certain fact of the Rapture is that it will take place. We can deduce certain elements of the Rapture yet not know because the Word does not give us specifics on this. Some believe in a pretribulation rapture; some believe in a post-tribulation rapture and some believe in a mid-tribulation rapture. There are verses that, taken out of context, can be used to prove any of three theories. I personally believe in a mid-tribulation rapture and believe that Daniel and Revelation supports that stance.

The above definiton of apostasy comes from Kenneth S Wuest "Word Studeis in the New Testament". Dr. Wuest led the committee that wrote the transaltion New American Standard Bible. He was a long time Professor of Religion at Moody Bible Institute in Chicago.

My personal belief is that Jesus is coming back.. and I don't care if it is in a rapture before or after the tribulation. All is the same.. we have to point at Jesus..

...and this is the problem, Believers are not willing to find the truth, or when they DO find it or some semblance of it, they refuse to insist on it. There is ONLY ONE ANSWER. There are not 'many ways it could happen'. There is one way it WILL happen and that is they way the Scriptures tell us it will happen. There is not 'what I believe' or 'what you believe' but what God's Scripture SAYS about the matter.

[Guest yod]

There is not 'what I believe' or 'what you believe' but what God's Scripture SAYS about the matter.

That seemed like a put down to the one who says they aren't worried about it, and don't see it as a priority as you do.

So, as ridiculous as rapture discussions are to me, I'm going to jump in here to answer your supposition

He says no one will know. Do you not believe Him? What is the point in making this such of focus of your life when He purposely wants it hidden? And again....it is the wicked who are taken away according to what He says about the matter. Every scripture that mentions someone being taken away is clearly about the wicked. The saints inherit the earth.

Not much point in replying to me on that one though....doubt I'll visit this again.

[JohnD]

No takers on Futurism versus preterism?

[JohnD]

I agree the scripture clearly says no man (including Jesus) knows the day or the hour he will return.

Matthew 24:36 (KJV)

36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

It is true he also said:

Acts 1:6-7 (KJV)

6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

But he also said:

Matthew 24:29-346 (KJV)

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?

46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.

48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;

49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;

50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,

51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 16:1-3 (KJV)

1 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven.

2 He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red.

3 And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times?

We are to heed the signs of the times. and the nearness of them though we cannot know the day or the hour...

The graph I have provided earlier in this thread is Daniel 12:11-12 depicting the 70th Week of Daniel when events in the middle of the seven years signify when the beginning of the 70th Week was. We cannot know until the sacrifices of the temple are abated. Then some 105 days later will come the rapture. But those who heed this prophecy will be deep in hiding as not to know if or when the sacrifices are abated.

[Dutch42]

Apostasy Greek: ἀποστασία (apostasia), a defection or revolt, from ἀπό, apo, "away, apart", στάσις, stasis, "stand", "standing") is the formal disaffiliation from or abandonment or renunciation of a religion by a person. The Apostle Paul was referring to those whose love for Christ had grown coild and allowed their "itching ears" to lead them in rejecting Christ for a lie. Pre-tribulationists like to support their dogma by using this verse, however it is not good hermaneutics. The only certain fact of the Rapture is that it will take place. We can deduce certain elements of the Rapture yet not know because the Word does not give us specifics on this. Some believe in a pretribulation rapture; some believe in a post-tribulation rapture and some believe in a mid-tribulation rapture. There are verses that, taken out of context, can be used to prove any of three theories. I personally believe in a mid-tribulation rapture and believe that Daniel and Revelation supports that stance.

The above definiton of apostasy comes from Kenneth S Wuest "Word Studeis in the New Testament". Dr. Wuest led the committee that wrote the transaltion New American Standard Bible. He was a long time Professor of Religion at Moody Bible Institute in Chicago.

My personal belief is that Jesus is coming back.. and I don't care if it is in a rapture before or after the tribulation. All is the same.. we have to point at Jesus..

...and this is the problem, Believers are not willing to find the truth, or when they DO find it or some semblance of it, they refuse to insist on it. There is ONLY ONE ANSWER. There are not 'many ways it could happen'. There is one way it WILL happen and that is they way the Scriptures tell us it will happen. There is not 'what I believe' or 'what you believe' but what God's Scripture SAYS about the matter.

Well maybe you can say better.. 'I think the problem is'.

Jesus is coming back.. and that is what I am looking at. Not the way He is coming back. This is nothing to do with finding the Truth.. The only Truth is Jesus... And I find the Truth.. Of course there is only answer.. You are telling what you believe..

What I see is, a lot of Christians wanted to sit at the seat of Christ.. to say in modern language.. they are like pharisee who are coming to Christ.. but they teach the Law.. and not the mercy.

[Massorite]

The Rapture in 2 Thessalonians 2:3

by Dr. Thomas Ice

Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

-2 Thessalonians 2:3

I believe that there is a strong possibility that 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is speaking of the rapture. What do I mean? Some pretribulationists, like myself, think that the Greek noun apostasia, usually translated "apostasy," is a reference to the rapture and should be translated "departure." Thus, this passage would be saying that the day of the Lord will not come until the rapture comes before it. If apostasia is a reference to a physical departure, then 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is strong evidence for pretribulationism.

Find the full article here: http://www.pre-trib.org/articles/view/rapture-in-2-thessalonians-23

So what about the part of the verse that you have not addressed. "and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction". Pre-trib folks also believe that they will be raptured before the antichrist appears. But this verse also says the "day of Christ will not come until the antichrist is revealed,(for who and what he is) the son of destruction. One can not simply focus on only one part of a verse and come to a true and qualified conclusion or belief that is based on only half of a whole. We must take ALL of the verse into account not just half. Which means that if we take into account all of the verse then it should be pretty clear that to believe that we will be resurrected both before the great falling away and before the antichrist is revealed it is a controdictory scriptural belief given the fact that this verse clearly says that we will not be going anywhere until both the falling away happens and the antichrist is revealed No insult intended here but according to this verse it should be a no brainer.

[Dutch42]

The Rapture in 2 Thessalonians 2:3

by Dr. Thomas Ice

Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

-2 Thessalonians 2:3

I believe that there is a strong possibility that 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is speaking of the rapture. What do I mean? Some pretribulationists, like myself, think that the Greek noun apostasia, usually translated "apostasy," is a reference to the rapture and should be translated "departure." Thus, this passage would be saying that the day of the Lord will not come until the rapture comes before it. If apostasia is a reference to a physical departure, then 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is strong evidence for pretribulationism.

Find the full article here: http://www.pre-trib.org/articles/view/rapture-in-2-thessalonians-23

So what about the part of the verse that you have not addressed. "and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction". Pre-trib folks also believe that they will be raptured before the antichrist appears. But this verse also says the "day of Christ will not come until the antichrist is revealed,(for who and what he is) the son of destruction. One can not simply focus on only one part of a verse and come to a true and qualified conclusion or belief that is based on only half of a whole. We must take ALL of the verse into account not just half. Which means that if we take into account all of the verse then it should be pretty clear that to believe that we will be resurrected both before the great falling away and before the antichrist is revealed it is a controdictory scriptural belief given the fact that this verse clearly says that we will not be going anywhere until both the falling away happens and the antichrist is revealed No insult intended here but according to this verse it should be a no brainer.

I agree with you..

Interesting is this: From the Peshitta (Murdock Translation and Lamsa Translation) (copied from another forum where I post this)

It said this:Let no one deceive you in any way; because that day will not come, unless there previously come a defection, {or: rebellion} and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

And the Lamsa Translation said Let no one deceive you by any way; for that day will not come, unless it is preceded by a rebellion and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Another ancient translation the Coptic Boharic:

And it said unless should come first the apostacy..

All those are ancient translations, translated from the Greek text into Aramaic or Coptic. I ask the legal question: If apostasia mean depart.. why can't we see this back in those translations.?

[Massorite]

The Rapture in 2 Thessalonians 2:3

by Dr. Thomas Ice

Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

-2 Thessalonians 2:3

I believe that there is a strong possibility that 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is speaking of the rapture. What do I mean? Some pretribulationists, like myself, think that the Greek noun apostasia, usually translated "apostasy," is a reference to the rapture and should be translated "departure." Thus, this passage would be saying that the day of the Lord will not come until the rapture comes before it. If apostasia is a reference to a physical departure, then 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is strong evidence for pretribulationism.

Find the full article here: http://www.pre-trib.org/articles/view/rapture-in-2-thessalonians-23

So what about the part of the verse that you have not addressed. "and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction". Pre-trib folks also believe that they will be raptured before the antichrist appears. But this verse also says the "day of Christ will not come until the antichrist is revealed,(for who and what he is) the son of destruction. One can not simply focus on only one part of a verse and come to a true and qualified conclusion or belief that is based on only half of a whole. We must take ALL of the verse into account not just half. Which means that if we take into account all of the verse then it should be pretty clear that to believe that we will be resurrected both before the great falling away and before the antichrist is revealed it is a controdictory scriptural belief given the fact that this verse clearly says that we will not be going anywhere until both the falling away happens and the antichrist is revealed No insult intended here but according to this verse it should be a no brainer.

I agree with you..

Interesting is this: From the Peshitta (Murdock Translation and Lamsa Translation) (copied from another forum where I post this)

It said this:Let no one deceive you in any way; because that day will not come, unless there previously come a defection, {or: rebellion} and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

And the Lamsa Translation said Let no one deceive you by any way; for that day will not come, unless it is preceded by a rebellion and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Another ancient translation the Coptic Boharic:

And it said unless should come first the apostacy..

All those are ancient translations, translated from the Greek text into Aramaic or Coptic. I ask the legal question: If apostasia mean depart.. why can't we see this back in those translations.?

Good question and I hope I am understanding your question correctly. Maybe the reason we didn't see it back then is because they were expecting the falling away to take place during thier time. Most of the Christian world thought that the world was gonig to end and Christ was coming back in 1000 AD

[Guest LoyalGypsy]

The Rapture in 2 Thessalonians 2:3

by Dr. Thomas Ice

Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

-2 Thessalonians 2:3

I believe that there is a strong possibility that 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is speaking of the rapture. What do I mean? Some pretribulationists, like myself, think that the Greek noun apostasia, usually translated "apostasy," is a reference to the rapture and should be translated "departure." Thus, this passage would be saying that the day of the Lord will not come until the rapture comes before it. If apostasia is a reference to a physical departure, then 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is strong evidence for pretribulationism.

Find the full article here: http://www.pre-trib.org/articles/view/rapture-in-2-thessalonians-23

Greetings

Some pretribulationists, like myself, think that the Greek noun apostasia, usually translated "apostasy," is a reference to the rapture and should be translated "departure."

Interseting way of looking at it, let me dig a little, I heard some scripture, let me find it and I'll be back

LG