The Rapture in 2 Thessalonians 2:3

[ENOCH2010]

I would love anyone of the pre-trib thought explain 1 Cor 15

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

The last trumpet is the last Jubilee (Trumpet). I recommend you search the scriptures to understand how God established the Jubilee. The last one is when the change comes.

One thing you are missing about 1 Cor 15 is the fact that it says "WE". The "we" is not all mankind, it's the believers in Christ.

According to Romans 8, we (the church) are awaiting the redemption of our bodies which is the moment when Christ appears, the dead IN CHRIST rise, we are all changed to an immortal form and caught up to God.

1 Cor 15: 55O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

56The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

57But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Wow, finally something I can agree with . I think the last trump is the last Jubilee trump too. I will have to look into what you say about the 'WE' in 1 Cor 15 a bit, since I had not 'read' it that way before.That may answer something for me.

Still believe we are here for the duration of the great tribulation though. Just not buying that God would take all the believers (that know what is happening & have maturity in Him) off the earth, then save a bunch of people (apparently without the Holy Spirit, since He leaves with the church-?), & then these 'babes' are left to stand against the antichrist regime. Nope, not buying it!

I could hug you right now!

Yes the church is here for the entire great tribulation, as the tribulation is defined by Jesus in Matt 24. It has been going on since the desolation of Israel. It is the wrath, when God gives the devil 42 months, that we are not appointed to suffer. - because we have already chosen.

I guess the best way to get my point across is to show you what I see from an overall perspective. What I mean is - there's a reason why the devil gets 42 months, why God uses the devil to destroy mystery babylon. The overall picture is that when the devil is cast down to the earth for his "short time", his final 42 months before he's cast lower still into an abyss, it's over and everyone alive at the time MUST choose - no more fence-sitting. They are forced to choose the devil's way or God's way.

That's why the devil (and his beast/false prophet) are given power. It forces people to make a choice.

The born of the Spirit church has already chosen. We already accept Jesus' sacrifice and are filled with the Spirit of God. We don't have to be forced to choose.

[Our removal/departure is a sign for those who are still here, even a sign for Israel, a sign for people who still must make that final choice. And the resurrection and departure of the two witnesses shocks a lot of people who then realize God is right and the devil is a liar.]

Some realize that it's all true and refuse to worship the devil, dying for that belief (but resurrected during the first resurrection of the millennium). Some believe the lies of the devil and his man of sin and take the mark/worship the beast (and then lose their life for eternity).

The point is, by the time the final 3 1/2 years begins...it's all over and Jesus is about to take over AFTER everyone makes that final choice.

(By the way, infants and children are gathered according to Joel 2. The final choice as to whom to worship for eternity is a decision that those who are accountable for their choices make.)

Can anyone point me to a verse and chapter that speaks to a general resurrection of the saved, before the first resurrection spoken about in Rev 20.Not just an opinion of how things have to happen to make their particular belief seem feasible. Surely something as important as a massive resurrection involving millions of people,would at least get a little ink time.

[ENOCH2010]

I would love anyone of the pre-trib thought explain 1 Cor 15

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

The last trumpet is the last Jubilee (Trumpet). I recommend you search the scriptures to understand how God established the Jubilee. The last one is when the change comes.

One thing you are missing about 1 Cor 15 is the fact that it says "WE". The "we" is not all mankind, it's the believers in Christ.

According to Romans 8, we (the church) are awaiting the redemption of our bodies which is the moment when Christ appears, the dead IN CHRIST rise, we are all changed to an immortal form and caught up to God.

1 Cor 15: 55O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

56The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

57But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Wow, finally something I can agree with . I think the last trump is the last Jubilee trump too. I will have to look into what you say about the 'WE' in 1 Cor 15 a bit, since I had not 'read' it that way before.That may answer something for me.

Still believe we are here for the duration of the great tribulation though. Just not buying that God would take all the believers (that know what is happening & have maturity in Him) off the earth, then save a bunch of people (apparently without the Holy Spirit, since He leaves with the church-?), & then these 'babes' are left to stand against the antichrist regime. Nope, not buying it!

I could hug you right now!

Yes the church is here for the entire great tribulation, as the tribulation is defined by Jesus in Matt 24. It has been going on since the desolation of Israel. It is the wrath, when God gives the devil 42 months, that we are not appointed to suffer. - because we have already chosen.

I guess the best way to get my point across is to show you what I see from an overall perspective. What I mean is - there's a reason why the devil gets 42 months, why God uses the devil to destroy mystery babylon. The overall picture is that when the devil is cast down to the earth for his "short time", his final 42 months before he's cast lower still into an abyss, it's over and everyone alive at the time MUST choose - no more fence-sitting. They are forced to choose the devil's way or God's way.

That's why the devil (and his beast/false prophet) are given power. It forces people to make a choice.

The born of the Spirit church has already chosen. We already accept Jesus' sacrifice and are filled with the Spirit of God. We don't have to be forced to choose.

[Our removal/departure is a sign for those who are still here, even a sign for Israel, a sign for people who still must make that final choice. And the resurrection and departure of the two witnesses shocks a lot of people who then realize God is right and the devil is a liar.]

Some realize that it's all true and refuse to worship the devil, dying for that belief (but resurrected during the first resurrection of the millennium). Some believe the lies of the devil and his man of sin and take the mark/worship the beast (and then lose their life for eternity).

The point is, by the time the final 3 1/2 years begins...it's all over and Jesus is about to take over AFTER everyone makes that final choice.

(By the way, infants and children are gathered according to Joel 2. The final choice as to whom to worship for eternity is a decision that those who are accountable for their choices make.)

Can anyone point me to a verse and chapter that speaks to a general resurrection of the saved, before the first resurrection spoken about in Rev 20.Not just an opinion of how things have to happen to make their particular belief seem feasible. Surely something as important as a massive resurrection involving millions of people,would at least get a little ink time.

Hmmm...so what you're looking for is something as overt as is written about in Revelation 20's millennial resurrections...right? Or even as overt as Revelation 11's description of the resurrection and rapture of the two witnesses, right?

You want a passage of scripture in Revelation that says the dead in Christ are raised up from their graves and given glorified bodies, then caught up in the air.

Paul got his information from the Old Testament, specifically Psalm 50: 1-6 and Isaiah 26:19-21, Joel 2 and Jesus' words that are written in the New Testament...and he had what we have, the Holy Spirit reminding us of what is written/what Jesus said. He spoke about his understanding of it in Thessalonians, Corinthians, among other places.

Based on what Paul told us and what Scripture says (outside of Revelation), we know as fact:

1. Jesus will appear in the air with the spirits of the dead in Christ (those who accept Jesus' sacrifice)

2. There will be a loud trumpet call

3. The dead bodies of the dead in Christ will rise up from their graves in an immortal form.

4. The living in Christ will be changed to an immortal form.

5. We will all be caught up together to the Lord in the air.

6. This event will occur prior to wrath. (OF GOD BEING POURED OUT)

Do we agree with that so far, based on scripture?

We can agree on this part now,after the addition. Revelation 20 tells us plainly when this resurrection takes place and what it is called,(the first resurrection).

[ENOCH2010]

We can agree on this part now,after the addition. Revelation 20 tells us plainly when this resurrection takes place and what it is called,(the first resurrection).

The first resurrection of Revelation 20 is the first resurrection of the millenium...because it says so. There is a first and a last resurrection in Revelation 20.

You appear to be stuck on the "first" word, not understanding that even the two witnesses are resurrected and raptured before the "first resurrection" takes place.

By the way, when the 5th seal martyrs are given white robes, they are told more martyrs will occur before they are avenged. The only people dying as martyrs after the 5th seal are those who are beheaded in the 7th seal at the hands of the beast and then raised AT THE FIRST RESURRECTION! Those who are beheaded at the hands of the beast are the ONLY ones resurrected in the first resurrection of the millennium after Christ has already come on the clouds to destroy and bound the devil into an abyss....because it says so.

SEE:

4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The view you describe is the pre-trib view,only you are trying to call it something else.You are adding a resurrection prior to the second comming of the Lord,so the church can stroll through a bed of roses as the end time events unfold,which isn't in the Bible. John would have wrote about a resurrection involving millions of people,just as he did about the other 2 resurrections,if they're was one.It's not in the Bible for a reason,and that reason is obvious, if people would put the second comming where it belongs (Rev 20) they're wouldn't be so much confussion.What is the reason John said the one's taking part in the first resurrection are blessed ?

[ENOCH2010]

We can agree on this part now,after the addition. Revelation 20 tells us plainly when this resurrection takes place and what it is called,(the first resurrection).

The first resurrection of Revelation 20 is the first resurrection of the millenium...because it says so. There is a first and a last resurrection in Revelation 20.

You appear to be stuck on the "first" word, not understanding that even the two witnesses are resurrected and raptured before the "first resurrection" takes place.

By the way, when the 5th seal martyrs are given white robes, they are told more martyrs will occur before they are avenged. The only people dying as martyrs after the 5th seal are those who are beheaded in the 7th seal at the hands of the beast and then raised AT THE FIRST RESURRECTION! Those who are beheaded at the hands of the beast are the ONLY ones resurrected in the first resurrection of the millennium after Christ has already come on the clouds to destroy and bound the devil into an abyss....because it says so.

SEE:

4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The view you describe is the pre-trib view,only you are trying to call it something else.You are adding a resurrection prior to the second comming of the Lord,so the church can stroll through a bed of roses as the end time events unfold,which isn't in the Bible. John would have wrote about a resurrection involving millions of people,just as he did about the other 2 resurrections,if they're was one.It's not in the Bible for a reason,and that reason is obvious, if people would put the second comming where it belongs (Rev 20) they're wouldn't be so much confussion.What is the reason John said the one's taking part in the first resurrection are blessed ?

They are blessed because they died for Christ and Christ honored their sacrifice.

Tell me why the heaven-dwellers who have overcome by the blood of the Lamb in Rev 12 say "now is come the salvation and the Kingdom" and also say "woe to the earth for the devil is come down to you having a short time".

When the rapture occurs, Jesus appears in the air with the spirits of the dead in Christ, their bodies rise, we are all changed to immortality and caught up to the throne of God PRIOR to wrath.

Why is the church in heaven in Rev 12 saying NOW IS COME the Kingdom of God and also saying "woe to the earth for the devil is gone down to you"???

Rev 20's first resurrection is POST wrath - Jesus has already appeared for the church, poured out wrath, come on the clouds to destroy and bound the devil.

The church is not appointed to wrath but receive salvation by the coming of Jesus! This is why the church is dwelling in heaven in Rev 12, saying NOW IS COME salvation and the Kingdom and also saying "woe to the earth for the devil is gone down to you knowing his time is short".

This is why the church is given white robes in the 5th seal, wrath begins in the 6th seal, and the church is seen standing in heaven before the 7th seal in Rev 6/7.

In your view are not the legions of angels "heaven - dweller's" is God not a heaven-dweller. The rapture and second comming are the same event,that is why only 2 resurrections are spoken of in the Bible.One before the 1000 reign,and one after.Preachers and teachers today have done a disservice to the word of God by speaking and teaching that the end time church is some how special,and is whisk away without a care or worry.The early church members didn't get whisk away,they were killed every imaginable way the devil could think of.Read the book of martyr's and tell me again how the church isn't going through the end time wrath.Instead of trying to find a way to tickle the ears of the church members,teachers today should teach the truth and prepare the end time church for whats comming prior the the second comming of the Lord.

[ENOCH2010]

In your view are not the legions of angels "heaven - dweller's" is God not a heaven-dweller. The rapture and second comming are the same event,that is why only 2 resurrections are spoken of in the Bible.One before the 1000 reign,and one after.Preachers and teachers today have done a disservice to the word of God by speaking and teaching that the end time church is some how special,and is whisk away without a care or worry.The early church members didn't get whisk away,they were killed every imaginable way the devil could think of.Read the book of martyr's and tell me again how the church isn't going through the end time wrath.Instead of trying to find a way to tickle the ears of the church members,teachers today should teach the truth and prepare the end time church for whats comming prior the the second comming of the Lord.

If a person can't read what this says and understand it, then it's WILLFUL ignoring of scripture for their own bias/beliefs. You, personally, won't even acknowledge the resurrection and rapture of the two witnesses in Revelation 11 which is obviously prior to the "first resurrection" in Rev 20.

Rev 12 and Rev 7 DEFINE the heaven-dwellers as the church. The angels and God didn't overcome the devil by the blood of the Lamb, nor are they ever referred to as "our brethren" who have been accused by the devil.

Rev 12: 10And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

11And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

12Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Rev 7: 9After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

10And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

...

13And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

15Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

Where in all that does it say these people were raptured to heaven ? It doesn't, those people could be the souls of believers who have died,been martyred,been aborted,killed in any of a million ways during the last 2000 or so years.It in no way infers they are the raptured church.

The resurrection of the two witnesses has nothing to do with this conversation unless one of us is implying the two witness' are the church and Israel . This thread is about the rapture and when it happens.

Edited January 14, 2012 by ENOCH2010

[ENOCH2010]

The resurrection of the two witnesses has nothing to do with this conversation unless one of us is implying the two witness' are the church and Israel . This thread is about the rapture and when it happens.

YOU said that there are only two resurrections - the first and the last in Rev 20. I am proving to you that not only is there a resurrection and rapture of the church mentioned twice in Revelation PRIOR to the first resurrection but there is also a resurrection and rapture of the two witnesses PRIOR to the first resurrection.

This is an undeniable fact.

Rev 6/7 and Rev 12/13 show the church standing in heaven, praising God for salvation and the Kingdom that has "NOW COME", having overcome the devil PRIOR to wrath and at a time when "woe to the earth for the devil has gone down to you".

I would surmise the 2 witness' are added to the multitude under the thrown,seeing as they were killed by the beast. Their resurrection is wrote about in plain English,along with the first resurrection,and the second resurrection.The resurrection NOT written about is the one you and the pre-tribers claim is for the church,that's the resurrection that i see as erroneous

[ENOCH2010]

The resurrection of the two witnesses has nothing to do with this conversation unless one of us is implying the two witness' are the church and Israel . This thread is about the rapture and when it happens.

YOU said that there are only two resurrections - the first and the last in Rev 20. I am proving to you that not only is there a resurrection and rapture of the church mentioned twice in Revelation PRIOR to the first resurrection but there is also a resurrection and rapture of the two witnesses PRIOR to the first resurrection.

This is an undeniable fact.

Rev 6/7 and Rev 12/13 show the church standing in heaven, praising God for salvation and the Kingdom that has "NOW COME", having overcome the devil PRIOR to wrath and at a time when "woe to the earth for the devil has gone down to you".

I would surmise the 2 witness' are added to the multitude under the thrown,seeing as they were killed by the beast. Their resurrection is wrote about in plain English,along with the first resurrection,and the second resurrection.The resurrection NOT written about is the one you and the pre-tribers claim is for the church,that's the resurrection that i see as erroneous

The white-robed multitude is standing in heaven before the throne before the antichrist is even empowered which occurs in the 5th trumpet of the 7th seal.

Rev 12 confirms this because the heaven dwelling brethren are standing in heaven saying "NOW IS COME the kingdom" AND ALSO SAYING "woe to the earth for the devil is gone down to you".

By the way, this also takes us back to 2 Thess 2 and the Greek word Apostasia meaning "departure" or "our gathering together unto him" before the man of sin can be revealed.

The pre-trib view is not Biblical The only way for it to be feasible is to ADD a resurrection for it to happen with that isn't in the Bible,it's that simple.

[ENOCH2010]

The pre-trib view is not Biblical The only way for it to be feasible is to ADD a resurrection for it to happen with that isn't in the Bible,it's that simple.

Then explain the church dwelling in heaven, at the throne of God before the devil is empowered in Rev 6/7 and Rev 12/13.

And by the way, the church has been in the tribulation for nearly 2000 years (by Jesus' definition of tribulation in Matt 24) and it is the wrath we are not appointed to suffer.

I don't have to find a way to rapture the church prior to the second comming,that is the conundrum the pre-tribers have gotten themselves into.I think the rapture and second comming is the same event.

[OneLight]

And yes, the rapture and the 2nd coming/return of Christ are the same event. Jesus appears and gathers us together unto Him, He pours out wrath in the form of the beast/trumpets/bowls and then He comes on the clouds with the armies of heaven to destroy.

Than that would mean that when He returns with the church, it would be His third coming, not His second coming. This is what opened my eyes and caused me to question what I was taught by other pre-tirbbers. Oh, how lovely it would be if He did return three times, but scripture only speaks of two for this age.

[OneLight]

No, that is incorrect.

The return of the Lord begins when He appears in the sky and gathers the church together unto him, it continues with the outpouring of wrath in the form of the beast/trumpets/bowls and it ends with his coming on the clouds to destroy.

Let's examine what you are saying, or what I am reading.

Christ comes for His church (second coming) and they just hang there in mid-air while the tribulation happens (7 years) and then continues to earth, all in the same coming. This is just not the case.

Another way this can be accomplished is if there are three comings of Christ. The second would be the rapture and the third would be at the end of the tribulation. Yet, this is not scriptural either.

There is only one second coming (never a third) and that is at the last trumpet. I can see the bowls being poured out one after another, at the very end of the tribulation. I have not seen scripture telling me that these events cannot be done at the same time.