ENOCH2010 Posted January 14, 2012 Group: Senior Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 907 Content Per Day: 0.20 Reputation: 382 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/03/2011 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/07/1866 Share Posted January 14, 2012 I don't have to find a way to rapture the church prior to the second comming,that is the conundrum the pre-tribers have gotten themselves into.I think the rapture and second comming is the same event. You do unless you are claiming that Church Age believers entering the tribulation are supernaturally protected after the 6th seal is opened. Are you claiming that? Did God rapture Noah and his family,or protect them through the flood,Did God rapture the children of Israel out of Egypt,or did he protect them through the plagues.The God I believe in is more than able to protect his own through the end times,right here on this earth.Just like he has shown all through the Bible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLight Posted January 14, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.22 Reputation: 9,763 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted January 14, 2012 Let's examine what you are saying, or what I am reading. Christ comes for His church (second coming) and they just hang there in mid-air while the tribulation happens (7 years) and then continues to earth, all in the same coming. This is just not the case. Another way this can be accomplished is if there are three comings of Christ. The second would be the rapture and the third would be at the end of the tribulation. Yet, this is not scriptural either. There is only one second coming (never a third) and that is at the last trumpet. I can see the bowls being poured out one after another, at the very end of the tribulation. I have not seen scripture telling me that these events cannot be done at the same time. Christ coming for His Church is not the "Second Coming." I have already explained that Alan. It is only a "Second Coming" if Jesus physically returns to the earth, which He does not do at the Rapture. Nowhere do pre-trib believers say that, ever. If I say I am driving from Phoenix to "return" to Los Angeles and I stop at Indio and turn around and go back to Phoenix, I didn't go to Los Angeles. I never made it there. I didn't return. The Church does not "hang" in the air while the Tribulation occurs. Where do you get that? Jesus takes the Church to heaven to the place prepared for them in John 14. The reason you cannot have a post-trib rapture is because believers in Christ cannot suffer the wrath of God. We are already redeemed, bought with a price. The wrath of God is being poured out directly on everyone after the 6th seal is opened. You cannot have a Rapture of the Church after that point, or God is lying to us. Yes, we have had this discussion. You do not see Christ coming for His church as a coming and I do. Think of it this way. You call me to pick you up, I drive up to your house, wait in my car, and you come out and we drive off. I may not of stepped inside your house, but I did come and pick you up. Like our brother Enoch, I believe God will protect us as He protected His people in Egypt and through the flood. God did not remove them, but brought then through the events. He made a way for them to go through each event without being affected by them. That is a witness to His love and power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ENOCH2010 Posted January 14, 2012 Group: Senior Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 907 Content Per Day: 0.20 Reputation: 382 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/03/2011 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/07/1866 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Did God rapture Noah and his family,or protect them through the flood,Did God rapture the children of Israel out of Egypt,or did he protect them through the plagues.The God I believe in is more than able to protect his own through the end times,right here on this earth.Just like he has shown all through the Bible. You didn't really answer the question. Does God supernaturally protect Church Age believers who enter the Tribulation, in your escatology view, yes, or no? Yes I think God will protect some,and before you ask about the martyrs, he allows them to be killed so his name is magnified,just as he did through out the Old Testament. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ENOCH2010 Posted January 14, 2012 Group: Senior Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 907 Content Per Day: 0.20 Reputation: 382 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/03/2011 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/07/1866 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Yes I think God will protect some,and before you ask about the martyrs, he allows them to be killed so his name is magnified,just as he did through out the Old Testament. The martyrs cannot be Church Age believers if they enter the Tribulation. They are either protected, or they are not. Those in Christ cannot suffer from God's wrath. So they are either gone at the time of the Great Tribulation or they are supernaturally protected. There is no 3rd option. I stand with my statement,God has allowed his children to suffer many times in the scriptures to magnify his name.The end time church is no holier than the early church,and many of them were martyred.This thought that the end time church is some how going to be whisk away without trouble,is a vain thought.We are not holier than the early church,in my opinion we are far worse off track. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ENOCH2010 Posted January 14, 2012 Group: Senior Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 907 Content Per Day: 0.20 Reputation: 382 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/03/2011 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/07/1866 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Did God rapture Noah and his family,or protect them through the flood,Did God rapture the children of Israel out of Egypt,or did he protect them through the plagues.The God I believe in is more than able to protect his own through the end times,right here on this earth.Just like he has shown all through the Bible. and yet, there's scripture after scripture showing the church (those who made a covenant by sacrifice/those who have washed in the blood of the Lamb) being called to and standing in heaven before wrath, before the devil gets his 42 months. Of coarse alot of the church is in Christ's presence,every believer that has past since the ascension of the Lord is there. It is probably a number that no man can number,and the second comming hasn't happened yet. Paul said to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord,the rapture isn't the only way to get where Christ is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ENOCH2010 Posted January 14, 2012 Group: Senior Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 907 Content Per Day: 0.20 Reputation: 382 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/03/2011 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/07/1866 Share Posted January 14, 2012 I stand with my statement,God has allowed his children to suffer many times in the scriptures to magnify his name.The end time church is no holier than the early church,and many of them were martyred.This thought that the end time church is some how going to be whisk away without trouble,is a vain thought.We are not holier than the early church,in my opinion we are far worse off track. What I think you may be missing is the PURPOSE of the rapture -WHY it takes place. It's not that the living in Christ are more holy than those who have died, it that time's up. When Jesus is ready to kick the devil down to the earth and pour out wrath, there are people alive on earth that are born of the Spirit, that have accepted Jesus' sacrifice. Jesus went to prepare a city for us in heaven, the New Jerusalem, and He's coming, just as He promised to take us there. At some point, Jesus' promises, indeed HIS Covenant is fulfilled. And that moment is just prior to wrath. It comes to ALL the church, living and dead, at one moment in time. Those who believe after we have been removed who are beheaded by the beast are honored by Jesus for making that sacrifice wth resurrection during the First resurrection of the millennium. THEY will have been under wrath and will die for choosing Jesus during that time, but will live forever, after being judged by their works. We aren't going to the new Jerusalem,it is comming to us.Read the 21st chapter of Rev again.The holy city is comming DOWN from God to Earth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLight Posted January 14, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.22 Reputation: 9,763 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted January 14, 2012 Yes, we have had this discussion. You do not see Christ coming for His church as a coming and I do. Think of it this way. You call me to pick you up, I drive up to your house, wait in my car, and you come out and we drive off. I may not of stepped inside your house, but I did come and pick you up. Like our brother Enoch, I believe God will protect us as He protected His people in Egypt and through the flood. God did not remove them, but brought then through the events. He made a way for them to go through each event without being affected by them. That is a witness to His love and power. That depends on how you use the word "remove." Noah and his family were removed from the earth. They were suspended over it by the waters of the flood, otherwise, they would have been killed with everyone else. Israel's people in Egypt were treated horribly and died at the hands of Egypt until God removed them from Egypt. If you say that Church Age believers are supernaturally protected until the end of the Tribulation, and that no resurrection occurs until that time, you still have a problem to solve. You have to explain where the multitudes of believers in heaven mentioned in Revelation 7 and 19 come from. God did not remove them as never to be seen in the flesh, as will happen in the rapture. God protected His own. God gave instructions to Noah, and when Noah obeyed, God protected them. If they did not obey, nobody would be here today. I cannot find one instance where Gods plagues fell on the Hebrew people. Saying that they were treated horribly and died at the hands of the Egyptians is not Gods doing, but mans. To answer your question as to who is with God, I can only give you my understanding of what scripture says. Philippians 1:9-26 For I know that this will turn out for my deliverance through your prayer and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ, according to my earnest expectation and hope that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ will be magnified in my body, whether by life or by death. For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell. For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better. Nevertheless to remain in the flesh is more needful for you. And being confident of this, I know that I shall remain and continue with you all for your progress and joy of faith, that your rejoicing for me may be more abundant in Jesus Christ by my coming to you again. It is my belief that when we die, our spirit returns to God, but we are not given a new body until the rapture, as spoken of in Philippians 3:20-21. For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself. Until we are given a transformed body, we are no more then spirits waiting to be conformed into His image. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ENOCH2010 Posted January 14, 2012 Group: Senior Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 907 Content Per Day: 0.20 Reputation: 382 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/03/2011 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/07/1866 Share Posted January 14, 2012 I stand with my statement,God has allowed his children to suffer many times in the scriptures to magnify his name.The end time church is no holier than the early church,and many of them were martyred.This thought that the end time church is some how going to be whisk away without trouble,is a vain thought.We are not holier than the early church,in my opinion we are far worse off track. What I think you may be missing is the PURPOSE of the rapture -WHY it takes place. It's not that the living in Christ are more holy than those who have died, it that time's up. When Jesus is ready to kick the devil down to the earth and pour out wrath, there are people alive on earth that are born of the Spirit, that have accepted Jesus' sacrifice. Jesus went to prepare a city for us in heaven, the New Jerusalem, and He's coming, just as He promised to take us there. At some point, Jesus' promises, indeed HIS Covenant is fulfilled. And that moment is just prior to wrath. It comes to ALL the church, living and dead, at one moment in time. Those who believe after we have been removed who are beheaded by the beast are honored by Jesus for making that sacrifice wth resurrection during the First resurrection of the millennium. THEY will have been under wrath and will die for choosing Jesus during that time, but will live forever, after being judged by their works. We aren't going to the new Jerusalem,it is comming to us.Read the 21st chapter of Rev again.The holy city is comming DOWN from God to Earth Hbr 11:16 Instead, they were longing for a better country--a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them. Hbr 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, Hbr 12:23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect, Hbr 12:24 to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel. Jhn 14:2 In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. Jhn 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. We are going there first because Jesus said he would come back and take us there. Notice the timing of when the New Jerusalem comes down: Revelation 21 1And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. 5And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. This appears to me to be post-millennial. There is still death during the millennium. Death is destroyed at the GWT judgment at the end of the millenium. Where are you going during the millennial reign? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ENOCH2010 Posted January 14, 2012 Group: Senior Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 907 Content Per Day: 0.20 Reputation: 382 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/03/2011 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/07/1866 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Where are you going during the millennial reign? According to Rev 2, 3, and 12, among other places, we will rule/reign from the throne of God. It could mean just about anything - we could be like the angels who come and go...I haven't really studied it much. My focus has just been on end-times stuff. I do know that Israel will be lifted up as the foremost nation from where Jesus directs people and events in the millennium before he turns everything over to God after the millennium. 'cause remember, there's another rebellion at the end of the millennium, just before the GWT judgment. 1Cr 2:9 However, as it is written: "No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him"-- But, one thing I can say is that just thinking about being there and doing whatever He wants me to do, just being in His presence, makes me very happy. The throne will be in Jerusalem,that's where we are going.That's the whole purpose of the second comming,so Christ can take his seat on the throne of David,that's where the ruling and reigning will be from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ENOCH2010 Posted January 14, 2012 Group: Senior Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 907 Content Per Day: 0.20 Reputation: 382 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/03/2011 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/07/1866 Share Posted January 14, 2012 I stand with my statement,God has allowed his children to suffer many times in the scriptures to magnify his name.The end time church is no holier than the early church,and many of them were martyred.This thought that the end time church is some how going to be whisk away without trouble,is a vain thought.We are not holier than the early church,in my opinion we are far worse off track. That statement is a bogus red herring. When you are forced to resort to falsehoods and lies to defend your doctrine, the battle is already lost. No one believes that the church is more holy or better than anything and that is why it gets to escape the tribulation. You, as most people bashing a pre-trib rapture, just can't seem to get it through your head that tribulation and wrath are not the same thing. Tribulation occurs at the hands of people, instigated by bad human nature, and/or Satan. Wrath occurs directly at the hands of God, and those in Christ are 100% exempt from wrath. The Church has never existed without troubles. The Church is more persecuted now that it was when it first began, so that is another bogus statement. Believers are still martyred daily. The Church is not "escaping" anything but God's wrath. You cannot, biblically-speaking, have the Church still on the earth after the 6th seal, or scripture is being broken, unless they are living in some magic bubble. OK lets start over,which resurrection in your opinion is the rapture of the church tied to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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