enoob57 Posted August 17, 2011 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,355 Content Per Day: 7.99 Reputation: 21,545 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted August 17, 2011 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldShep Posted August 17, 2011 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 20 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 934 Content Per Day: 0.20 Reputation: 137 Days Won: 6 Joined: 07/20/2011 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/12/1950 Share Posted August 17, 2011 (edited) I did not see the title of where this posted thread was until now. Any way, seeing this is in the "Doctrinal Questions" area. I have a simple answer for you-all. Those who will not believe will not receive! Edited August 17, 2011 by OldShep Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted August 17, 2011 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,355 Content Per Day: 7.99 Reputation: 21,545 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted August 17, 2011 I did not see the title of where this posted thread was until now. Any way, seeing this is in the "Doctrinal Questions" area. I have a simple answer for you-all. Those who will not believe will not receive! Did ya look in the turn or burn section... just having goats... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNewMan Posted August 18, 2011 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 94 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 12 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/08/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted August 18, 2011 (edited) Here's some other information to consider. Let's re-quote the passage. "(8) Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. (9) For we know in part and we prophesy in part. (10) But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away. (11) When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. (12) For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known. (13) And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love." I'd like to draw your attention to verse 13. "Now abide faith, hope, love." NIV says "these three remain, faith, hope, love." This is clearly in contrast to that which will not remain, prophecies, tongues and knowledge, according to verse 8. Why will these things cease? Because that which is perfect shall come. And then the chapter ends by saying that, after that which is perfect has come, these three things remain (after prophecies, tongues and knowledge; basically, after all miracles have ceased), faith, hope, and love. And the greatest is love, which is the point Paul was making. But the interesting thing is that he says that, after that which is perfect has come, after miracles have failed (remember, it says that those three will remain, and the only thing that could contrast to is those things that would not remain, which are miracles), faith and hope will still remain, along with love. My point is, there reason that "that which is perfect" cannot be the coming of Jesus Christ, is because faith and hope will not abide after His coming, they will not remain. Remember what Paul said in Hebrews (it might not have been Paul, but there is evidence to believe it was Paul) chapter 11 verse 1. "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." We need faith because we cannot see God. But when Jesus comes, we will see God, so we will not need faith. Likewise, we hope for the day when we will be in heaven with God and live in His glorious presence. When Jesus comes and we are in heaven, we will no longer need to hope for heaven, because we will have attained it. I think this is fair evidence toward the position that the coming of what is perfect that is discussed in 1 Corinthians 13 is not Christ's coming. I'd like to hear what you all think on the subject in light of this new information. Edited August 18, 2011 by TheNewMan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted August 18, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.94 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted August 18, 2011 I think this is fair evidence toward the position that the coming of what is perfect that is discussed in 1 Corinthians 13 is not Christ's coming. I'd like to hear what you all think on the subject in light of this new information. Well, if we can avoid misunderstanding what each other is trying to say this time.... "(8) Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. (9) For we know in part and we prophesy in part. (10) But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away. (11) When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. (12) For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known. (13) And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love." I'd like to draw your attention to verse 13. "Now abide faith, hope, love." NIV says "these three remain, faith, hope, love." This is clearly in contrast to that which will not remain, prophecies, tongues and knowledge, according to verse 8. Why will these things cease? Because that which is perfect shall come. And then the chapter ends by saying that, after that which is perfect has come, these three things remain (after prophecies, tongues and knowledge; basically, after all miracles have ceased), faith, hope, and love. And the greatest is love, which is the point Paul was making. But the interesting thing is that he says that, after that which is perfect has come, after miracles have failed (remember, it says that those three will remain, and the only thing that could contrast to is those things that would not remain, which are miracles), faith and hope will still remain, along with love. The NIV states: "And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love." So I'm not understanding how you are jumping to future reference with these. The "nows" in this passage are: (9) For we know in part and we prophesy in part. (12) For now we see in a mirror, dimly, Now I know in part, (13) And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love. The "thens" are: (10) But when that which is perfect has come, (12) but then face to face. but then I shall know just as I also am known. So I disagree with what you are saying about faith, hope, and love remaining after the other things ceased, because they are listed among the "nows" right along with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNewMan Posted August 18, 2011 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 94 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 12 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/08/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted August 18, 2011 (edited) So I disagree with what you are saying about faith, hope, and love remaining after the other things ceased, because they are listed among the "nows" right along with them. It seems to me that the word now means "however" or, "meanwhile" these things remain. But I still see the contrast between when he says that prophecies will fail, while these three remain. Love never fails, it will outlast prophecy, and will not be done away with when that which is perfect shall come, and love is grouped with faith and hope. I just can't ignore the contrast (miracles fail, faith and hope remain). Edited August 18, 2011 by TheNewMan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fez Posted August 18, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 683 Topics Per Day: 0.12 Content Count: 11,128 Content Per Day: 2.00 Reputation: 1,352 Days Won: 54 Joined: 02/03/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/07/1952 Share Posted August 18, 2011 So I disagree with what you are saying about faith, hope, and love remaining after the other things ceased, because they are listed among the "nows" right along with them. It seems to me that the word now means "however" or, "meanwhile" these things remain. But I still see the contrast between when he says that prophecies will fail, while these three remain. Love never fails, it will outlast prophecy, and will not be done away with when that which is perfect shall come, and love is grouped with faith and hope. I just can't ignore the contrast (miracles fail, faith and hope remain). Do you attend a church? Do you do outreach to places where there is a childlike faith (because it is all people have). Have you ever prayed for healing for someone, or yourself? How do you account for the dozens of posts on miracles occuring that are on this site alone? Have you ever seen sight restored through prayer alone? Or for that matter the dead raised? What do you make of this scripure? Mar 11:23 Truly, I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, 'Be taken up and thrown into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that what he says will come to pass, it will be done for him. Mar 11:24 Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. Mar 11:25 And whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against anyone, so that your Father also who is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oneaccords Posted August 18, 2011 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 27 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 366 Content Per Day: 0.08 Reputation: 70 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/22/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted August 18, 2011 Most writers list a number of reasons why Jesus did miracles, but strange to say, they nearly all omit to mention the most important reason of all - the reason which sweeps away the whole basis of charismatic healing. Jesus did not heal, raise the dead, walk on water in order to be an example to us, but in order to authenticate His divine nature and power; to demonstrate that He was the long-prophesied Saviour sent from God. John 20: 30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. John 2: 11 This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him. John 5: 36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me. In exhibiting His power and glory He healed not merely the functional disorders but also the most deep-seated, organic disorders. He restored sight, renewed crippled, wasted limbs, and raised the dead (never once failing) to establish His messiahship for all time - that was the reason given in the Scriptures for Christ's healing miracles. If the Lord's healings are supposed to be a pattern for us, then absolute success in all cases which present themselves, including the blind, withered and at times even the dead, must be the standard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted August 18, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.94 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted August 18, 2011 Fez, if you were able to take a video camera and show the miracles you see taking place, they will still find a way to excuse it off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNewMan Posted August 18, 2011 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 94 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 12 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/08/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted August 18, 2011 Fez, I've been to churches where people have performed what they consider miracles and healing. I've been to faith healings where so called miracle workers would heal invisible maladies. They all had something in common: there was nothing about the miracles that was really supernatural. Among the churches, they all either spoke in tongues (in which case there was not an interpreter, so the "tongue" in question was gibberish), and among the faith healers, they cured invisible cancers, of which there is no proof that it existed, they cured depression and migraines and men and women who claim to have been cripple, but no one knew them so no one could witness to the reality of the healing. This is my issue with those sort of miracles. First, the miracles in the Bible were never vague, or explainable. They were obviously supernatural, like a man having a withered hand restored, or a cripple who had been well known to have been cripple since birth suddenly walking again, or a dead man being brought to life. Second, if the Bible says that miracles have passed, and it seems to me that it does, I've never heard a satisfactory explanation of 1 Corinthians 13. If the Bible says miracles have ceased, I will automatically believe the Bible above all other human claims, and that's how it should be. We should put our trust in God and not in men. Fez, to answer the verse in Mark 11:24, could I pray for everyone in Europe to die of a plague and, if I have utter and complete faith that it will happen, will God grant that request for me? Or perhaps if I pray for my long-dead atheistic grandmother to leave Hell and go to Heaven, will God grant that request for me if I ask in complete and utter faith? I think the inevitable answer is no. God will grant us anything we ask for with faith, as long as it is accordance with His will. But if we ask for things that are against His will (and I am of the opinion to say that asking for miracles would fall into the category, because I believe the Bible shows us they no longer are needed or imparted by the Holy Spirit), then they will not be given to us. That's why I don't believe we can ask for miracles in pray and be granted miracles. But back to the Bible. Nebula, you said that the three things that abide, "faith, hope and love" are said to abide now. I am assuming (correct me if I'm wrong) that you think that because it says "now," just as it says that we "now" know in part, that the things which "now abide" will no longer remain, just as those which in contrasts to will no longer remain, after that which is perfect has come? If that is your opinion, then I would answer that love is grouped with those things that "now" abide. But we already know from verse 8 that love will never fail, whereas there are things that will cease (spiritual gifts) and will be done away with when that which is perfect shall come. I think this is evidence that when it says "Now abide faith, hope, love, these three," it's not using the word now to say "At this very moment in time, abide faith, hope, love." We know that love will always abide. It is saying that these things will abide when other things cease. The only other things that cease in this chapter are spiritual gifts. If you take my position, and say that "that which is perfect" is the completed revelation of God's word, not only will it coincide with the Scriptures, which says that miracles were used as affirmation of the words that God spoke through man (Hebrews 2:4), but also you will not be claiming that faith and hope will abide after the coming of Christ, nor will you be claiming that love will not abide after the coming of Christ. However, faith, hope and love will abide after we have the completed will of God (of course, we already do), which is why miracles were done in the first place. Like I said before, I believe that if the Bible teaches that miracles have ceased, then I will not believe that miracles currently take place. I would personally love for miracles to be a reality in this day and age, because then I would have no dead relatives, no dead friends, and no dying friends and relatives. But since I can, from the Bible, see where it provides strong evidence that miracles were only purposed for a time, until they were not needed anymore, I can't believe in miracles. The alternative is that I believe in what God says which, I think, is better. Also, I would like to say that I don't consider it a miracle when we pray for someone to overcome their illness and they do. I believe that God answers our prayers with a yes sometimes in those cases and helps them overcome, but not through any supernatural means. He has simply allowed it to be so that the doctors treating such people will be able to cure them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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