does God still performs miracles today?

[nebula]

And I have quite a bit of experience with what is written in Scripture. God told me to repent and be baptized for remission of my sins. I have done that, gaining experience.

Has he ever pointed out to you a specific sin you haven't dealt with yet that needs to be dealt with?

God told me to add to my faith, virtue, to virtue knowledge, to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance, godliness, to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love.

Great, but has he told you what you need to do specifically to add these things? Has He congratulated you for making the correct choice from time to time, or has He rebuked you for making the wrong choice from time to time so that you can follow this command more efficiently?

He told me to love my brother so that I may learn to love Him.

Has He told you how to love someone specifically that you were specifically having a hard time showing love to?

These things I have done, because God has taught me to do them in His word. I now abide in God, as His word tells me I do, and have a peace that passes understanding, having boldness in the day of judgment, because I know (because my experience has shown me the power of God) that I am correctly interpreting the Bible.

Thank you for showing me how well you can polish your halo.

Now please tell me about the nitty gritty of your life. I would appreciate hearing details of how you faced a specific situation and specifically applied your principles into the situation and specifically had your solution and specifically got through it.

[Joshua-777]

Where does the bible say miracles have ceased?

I've posted all the Scripture already... sigh I'll do it again, for everyone's benefit.

1 Corinthians 13:8-13

(8) "Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away.

(9) For we know in part and we prophesy in part.

(10) But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.

(11) When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

(12) For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.

(13) And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love."

All right, so verse 8 says that spiritual gifts will fail, such as prophecies, tongues, knowledge, etc. Verse 10 tells us when they will cease: "when that which is perfect has come."

No one disputes that miracles will, eventually fade away. How could they? Most everyone disputes what Paul is talking about when he mentions "that which is perfect."

Most people think it is talking about Jesus' return. The reason that cannot be true is because of verse 13. It says "now abide faith, hope, love, these three." What does that mean? Well, it says that those three things will abide. Is that just a random statement of fact? No, it's actually a contrast between that which WILL abide (faith, hope, and love) and that which will not abide (spiritual gifts - verse 8-10). So verse 13 says that faith, hope, and love will abide after spiritual gifts fail, and spiritual gifts will fail when that which is perfect has come, therefore faith, hope, and love will abide after that which is perfect has come.

Now, if "that which is perfect" is Jesus' return, that means that faith and hope will abide after Jesus' return. That is not true. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things NOT SEEN (Hebrews 11:1). When we have seen Jesus and seen God in Heaven, we will no longer need faith in God, because we will have sight instead. Also, we will no longer have hope, because that which we hoped for (to be brought up to Heaven with God forever) has already happened. After Jesus' return, only love will still abide. Therefore, according to this passage, "that which is perfect" cannot be Christ's return.

Also, nebula made a point saying that it says that faith, hope, and love "now" abide. As in, they abide right then, and not necessarily after that which is perfect has come. In fact, she grouped those things with prophesying in part and knowing in part, which only exist until that which is perfect has come, and not after. So nebula is saying that those three will not abide after that which is perfect has come, and that they will fail along with spiritual gifts. The problem is that love is one of the three things that "now abide." And we know from verse 8 that love NEVER fails, whereas (it says this in the same verse) spiritual gifts WILL fail.

So love will abide AFTER that which is perfect has come, along with faith and hope, which are contrasted against those things which will NOT abide after that which is perfect has come (spiritual gifts).

Now, what Paul is actually talking about when he mentions that which is perfect is the completely revealed and inspired Word of God. We know this because of verse 9, which says that they knew and prophesied in part. What did they know OF or prophesy OF? Obviously the only thing that needed known about or prophesied about: the Words of God, the teachings of God. There was no written word at that time, and so God had to make known His will through inspired teachers, prophets, and writers.

Also, we know that God used miracles to bear witness of the words that Jesus and His disciples spoke (Hebrews 2:1-4). That was their purpose. Their purpose was not to heal, or to raise people from the dead, or to feed people, that was simply what miracles did, in ORDER to prove the words spoken by the apostles and those they taught. That is why miracles are described as "signs."

So verse 9 says that knowledge and prophecy are in part, but when that which is perfect (that word, teleios, literally means "complete") has come, that which is in part will be done away. partial knowledge and partial prophecy will be done away with, because that which is complete shall have replaced. What is complete? Christ? No, knowledge and prophecy.

No one disputes that miracles will, eventually fade away. How could they? Most everyone disputes what Paul is talking about when he mentions "that which is perfect."

Not disputing that spiritual gifts will fade when that which is perfect has come, but it still does not say miracles. It says tongues, prophecy, and knowledge. But anyways, that which is perfect cannot be the full revelation of God, because not all is revealed. The cannon of scripture is complete, yes and it is infalable, but there are still many prophecies to come to be, if all prophecies will fail, then how about the prophecies yet to be?

Now lets look at the rest of scripture, to see if it lines up with your interpritation.

Now if healings have ceased, why would James say,

James 5:13 Is anyone among you suffering? Let him pray. Is anyone cheerful? Let him sing psalms. 14 Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. 16 Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much. 17 Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed earnestly that it would not rain; and it did not rain on the land for three years and six months. 18 And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth produced its fruit.

One thing I have learned about healings, the Lord only heals through love. When ever Jesus healed anyone He was moved with compassion for them. People still need healing, the Lord still heals. Jesus did not say, "Here's the bible, now I leave you alone." He promises a comforter, the Holy Spirit.

John 14:12 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father. 13 And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask anything in My name, I will do it.

15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

The Holy Spirit will lead us in all truth.

Now lets look at prophecy, the two witnesses prophecy in Revelation. If that which is perfect has already come and all prophecy has ceased, then how is this possible?

Revelation 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, so that no rain falls in the days of their prophecy; and they have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to strike the earth with all plagues, as often as they desire.

Also, part of prophecy is seeing into future events. Agabus prophecied there was going to be a great famine. By what your saying, because that which is perfect has come, we no longer need prophecy. Is there still famines in the world? If that which is perfect is Jesus, then when HE comes we will be caught up in Him in perfection and there will be no disasters, but because there are still disasters.

Acts 11:28 Then one of them, named Agabus, stood up and showed by the Spirit that there was going to be a great famine throughout all the world, which also happened in the days of Claudius Caesar.

All spiritual gifts are used for edification, when we are made perfect in Him, there will be no longer have any need for edification.

[ncn]

because I know (because my experience has shown me the power of God) that I am correctly interpreting the Bible.

Gosh that comes over so much as if,” Only I can interpret the scriptures”

I mean this with no disrespect but, what happened to, 2 Corinthians 11:30

"If I must boast, I will boast of the things that show my weakness"

Only someone facing or sharing a serious sickness, pain or tragedy knows how hard it is. They know how hard it is to cope with the fear and uncertainty.

They know how absurd it sounds when someone first tells them to "keep a positive attitude". They know how terrifying it is when the doubt comes.

They know how hard it is to throw a mountain into the sea.

But remember what Jesus told us in Matthew 17:19-20 when he said "I tell you the truth, if you have faith as small as mustard seed, you can say to this mountain,

“Move from here to there” and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you."

You may believe in your heart that miracles through others by the power of prayer cannot and do not happen, others may disagree and I for one am one of those.

In Matthew 18:19 it says,

Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Edited August 19, 2011 by ncn

[TheNewMan]

Not disputing that spiritual gifts will fade when that which is perfect has come, but it still does not say miracles. It says tongues, prophecy, and knowledge.

1 Corinthians 12

(1) Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I do not want you to be ignorant. (He's talking about spiritual gifts)

(7) But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all:

(8) For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit,

(9) to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit,

(10) to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy....

(31) But earnestly desire the best gifts. And yet I show you a better way."

So you see from the first 10 verses of chapter 12 that all those things were gifts from the same Spirit, therefore they are all spiritual gifts. That includes miracles. But then, Paul said he would show them a better way. The better way was to desire love above spiritual gifts, because spiritual gifts will fail. Miracles fall under the category of spiritual gifts. Miracles come from the SPIRIT. SPIRITual gifts are from the SPIRIT.

But anyways, that which is perfect cannot be the full revelation of God, because not all is revealed. The cannon of scripture is complete, yes and it is infalable, but there are still many prophecies to come to be, if all prophecies will fail, then how about the prophecies yet to be?

It's not saying that prophecies that have already been made will fail. The discussion is spiritual prophecy, so obviously the ABILITY to prophesy will fail. Just like the ABILITY to speak in tongues will fail. The languages themselves won't vanish. It's talking about the miraculous ABILITY.

Now lets look at the rest of scripture, to see if it lines up with your interpritation.

Now if healings have ceased, why would James say,

James 5:13 Is anyone among you suffering? Let him pray. Is anyone cheerful? Let him sing psalms. 14 Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. 16 Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much. 17 Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed earnestly that it would not rain; and it did not rain on the land for three years and six months. 18 And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth produced its fruit.

First, this proves nothing, because when James' writings were Scripture and had yet to be added to a collective work. The Scriptures were still being written. The completed revelation had not yet come, because there were writings still left to be written.

Also, look closely at verse 16. When it says you will be healed, it's obviously not talking about being healed of a physical sickness. It has to do with dealing with temptation. That's why they were to confess their trespasses one with another.

One thing I have learned about healings, the Lord only heals through love. When ever Jesus healed anyone He was moved with compassion for them. People still need healing, the Lord still heals. Jesus did not say, "Here's the bible, now I leave you alone." He promises a comforter, the Holy Spirit.

John 14:12 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father. 13 And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask anything in My name, I will do it.

15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

Of course He couldn't say "here's the Bible," because there was no Bible to be given. And Christ has love for everyone. But there's no need to heal. Christ's kingdom is not of this world. His intention in coming to the world was not to make everyone live a comfortable, sick-free life. It was to procure salvation for all who believed. Healing was not His purpose. It is far more important to be spiritually healthy, to be alive to God. That's why miracles were done, to confirm the words Jesus spoke, to give people a sign that what He was saying was from God. Jesus had compassion and healed people. That, however, was not His ultimate purpose.

Also, those words were specifically directed toward His apostles, who DID receive the Spirit. It does not mean that all Christians throughout time will be given the ability to do works.

The Holy Spirit will lead us in all truth.

Now lets look at prophecy, the two witnesses prophecy in Revelation. If that which is perfect has already come and all prophecy has ceased, then how is this possible?

Revelation 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, so that no rain falls in the days of their prophecy; and they have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to strike the earth with all plagues, as often as they desire.

Also, part of prophecy is seeing into future events. Agabus prophecied there was going to be a great famine. By what your saying, because that which is perfect has come, we no longer need prophecy. Is there still famines in the world? If that which is perfect is Jesus, then when HE comes we will be caught up in Him in perfection and there will be no disasters, but because there are still disasters.

Acts 11:28 Then one of them, named Agabus, stood up and showed by the Spirit that there was going to be a great famine throughout all the world, which also happened in the days of Claudius Caesar.

First, how could the revelation from God be completed if the Revelation of God through John had not yet been written and provided to Christians?

Also, like what I said earlier, the ABILITY to prophesy, not prophecies themselves, stopped when that which is perfect came.

All spiritual gifts are used for edification, when we are made perfect in Him, there will be no longer have any need for edification.

"Made perfect." That is an important phrase. Let me show you what the Bible says about being "made perfect."

2 Corinthians 13:11 - "Finally, brethren, farewell. Be complete. Be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace will be with you."

- That word, complete, is a derivative of the word perfect in 1 Corinthians 13:10, which also means literally "complete." Remember, that which is "perfect" is simply that which is "complete." See how completeness, how perfection is a commandment there?

Philippians 3:15 - "There let us, as many as are mature, have this mind; and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal even this to you.

- Now that word, mature, is the exact same word used in 1 Corinthians 13:10. Teleios. See how it states the reality of being complete, of being perfect on earth?

Colossians 1:28 - "Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.

- Again, exact same word as in 1 Corinthians 13:10. It means completion. And "in Christ Jesus" does not mean "in heaven with Christ Jesus." We are all in Christ Jesus when we are baptized, having repented of our former sins and confessed that Jesus is the Son of God (Romans 6:3; 10:9-10)

Colossians 4:12 - "Epaphras, who is one of you, a bondservant of Christ, greets you, always laboring fervently for you in prayers, that you may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God."

- That first word there, perfect, is also teleios. Now this verse actually tells us how we may become perfect. By being complete in the will of God. That sorta sounds like 1 Corinthians 13, doesn't it?

2 Timothy 3:17 - "that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work."

- This word is artios, which means literally "by implication, complete". If you doubted my interpretation of the last verse, you cannot doubt this. I said that we are made perfect by being complete in God's will, therefore living according to God's will. Read the previous verse for clarification.

James 1:4 - "But let patience have its perfect work, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking nothing."

- Yep, teleios. You get the point.

The phrase "made perfect" to my knowledge, never alludes to the changing of our bodies when we leave this earth, nor any result of being with God in heaven. Correct me if I'm wrong.

What I have explained to you is this:

1. Miracles are part of spiritual gifts.

2. Your verses in James and Revelation are irrelevant because the revelation of God was obviously not complete, if those writings were PART of that revelation which, when written, were not known to those they were being written to.

3. The ability to prophesy, not all prophesies ever made (such as Jesus' return) will fail.

4. The "perfect" thing to come in 1 Corinthians 13:10 has a reference to something being completed. I have shown you many verses in the Bible that use the same word, teleios. Also, by saying that we will only no longer need edification when we are with Jesus Christ in heaven is to say that "that which is perfect" is talking about Jesus return, which I have shown you according to the Bible to be false. It cannot be talking about Christ's return in 1 Corinthians 13:10 because faith and hope will not abide after Jesus' return, and yet the passage says that faith and hope WILL abide after the coming of that which is perfect.

Also, spiritual gifts are clearly not the only method with which to edify others.

The bottom line is, you must clearly define what "that which is perfect" is, so that we may know when spiritual gifts (including miracles and healings, which are gifts of the same spirit) will fail. You cannot say it is Christ's return, for reasons I have already explained.

[TheNewMan]

How did God speak to Abraham, Moses, Elijah, Peter, Philip, Paul, etc.?

Or when Jesus said:

13 "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth ; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak ; and He will disclose to you what is to come. 14 "He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you. 15 "All things that the Father has are Mine ; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you. (John 16)

Do you not think the Spirit speaks to you?

He spoke to them directly. Irrelevant. He didn't have a written word to speak to them with. Also, that verse is addressed specifically to Jesus's eleven apostles (Judas had left to go betray Jesus in John 13:30, and from then on Jesus is addressing His apostles, until Chatper 17), no one else. But yes, I do think that the Spirit talks to me through the word He has revealed to me, which contains all that pertains to life and godliness (2 Peter 1:3)

No, my experience tells me that people have been interpreting the Bible wrong.

You see, Paul never said "the completed Word of God". People who did not want to believe in the miraculous found a way to interpret Paul's words that way.

I have shown you many reasons as to why that is the correct interpretation. The only reason you've given to me to deny that it is the right interpretation is by saying "that is not the right interpretation." Please show me the right interpretation.

Has he ever pointed out to you a specific sin you haven't dealt with yet that needs to be dealt with?

Yep, His commandments convict me every time I read them, if I am not living right. James 1:25 - "But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does."

All I have to do is look into the perfect law of liberty to see if I am doing right. I also pray to God for wisdom (James 1:5), asking Him that He would humble my heart and show me what His word truly says.

Great, but has he told you what you need to do specifically to add these things? Has He congratulated you for making the correct choice from time to time, or has He rebuked you for making the wrong choice from time to time so that you can follow this command more efficiently?

Let's see.

Faith - "Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God." - Romans 10:17

Virtue - The definition of virtue is: "moral excellence; goodness; righteousness." "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness," - 2 Timothy 3:16.

Knowledge - "how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)"

Self-control - "Abstain from every form of evil." - 1 Thessalonians 5:22. "make no provision for the flesh" - Romans 13:14.

Perseverance - Prayer helps. (Ephesians 6:18-19)

Godliness - Godliness is a result of persevering in self-control, having put in virtue and knowledge.

Brotherly Kindness - Galatians 6:10.

Love - 1 John 4:19-21.

Has He told you how to love someone specifically that you were specifically having a hard time showing love to?

Perhaps. But it's my duty to look, not God's.

Thank you for showing me how well you can polish your halo.

Now please tell me about the nitty gritty of your life. I would appreciate hearing details of how you faced a specific situation and specifically applied your principles into the situation and specifically had your solution and specifically got through it.

Polishing my halo? No. I am simply telling you how God has blessed me, because I have correctly interpreted His will about love and self-control and righteous, and things such as that. I also did not say that I had confidence that I interpret all Scripture correctly, only in regards to salvation.

Nitty gritty? Well, from the ages of 9 to 18, I was addicted to pornography. It ruined my entire spiritual life. In fact, it made every act I did basically worthless, because I was not acting with true love and faith toward God, so I was not saved, no matter how much I read the Bible each day, or how many people I told about Christ, or how many people I persuaded to be baptized.

Then I went to college and, through the influences of good Christians there, I was edified to be more obedient to God. I read verses like 1 Corinthians 10:13 which says that God always provides a way of escape from temptation. That is God speaking to me, telling me how I can refrain from sinning. So from then on, confessing my transgressions to my brethren and praying that I might be healed of my spiritual infirmities (James 5:16), I would recite in my mind encouraging Scriptures that helped me realize the possibility of avoiding sin, and the benefits of doing so. Hope that was clear.

[Joshua-777]

1 Corinthians 12

(1) Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I do not want you to be ignorant. (He's talking about spiritual gifts)

(7) But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all:

(8) For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit,

(9) to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit,

(10) to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy....

(31) But earnestly desire the best gifts. And yet I show you a better way."

So you see from the first 10 verses of chapter 12 that all those things were gifts from the same Spirit, therefore they are all spiritual gifts. That includes miracles. But then, Paul said he would show them a better way. The better way was to desire love above spiritual gifts, because spiritual gifts will fail. Miracles fall under the category of spiritual gifts. Miracles come from the SPIRIT. SPIRITual gifts are from the SPIRIT.

We are to desire love, and spiritual gifts help demonstrate His love. As I said I'm not disputing the context is spiritual gifts, but he still doesn't directly say miracles. Also, by saying tha tlove replaced spiritual gifts you are ignoring Paul tellling us to desire spiritual gifts, and persure love in 1 Corinthians 14:1. Think about it, if you're interpritation is not correct, then you are telling people to contradict what the Word of God teaches them to seek after.

It's not saying that prophecies that have already been made will fail. The discussion is spiritual prophecy, so obviously the ABILITY to prophesy will fail. Just like the ABILITY to speak in tongues will fail. The languages themselves won't vanish. It's talking about the miraculous ABILITY.

But the two witnesses have the ability to prophecy in Revelation.

First, this proves nothing, because when James' writings were Scripture and had yet to be added to a collective work. The Scriptures were still being written. The completed revelation had not yet come, because there were writings still left to be written.

Also, look closely at verse 16. When it says you will be healed, it's obviously not talking about being healed of a physical sickness. It has to do with dealing with temptation. That's why they were to confess their trespasses one with another.

James is giving direction to a church. It says you will be healed, and the sickness is physical. Thats why he says "if anyone is sick among you" he already covered temptation earler in the first chapter. It is talking abotu a physical healing.

Of course He couldn't say "here's the Bible," because there was no Bible to be given. And Christ has love for everyone. But there's no need to heal. Christ's kingdom is not of this world. His intention in coming to the world was not to make everyone live a comfortable, sick-free life. It was to procure salvation for all who believed. Healing was not His purpose. It is far more important to be spiritually healthy, to be alive to God. That's why miracles were done, to confirm the words Jesus spoke, to give people a sign that what He was saying was from God. Jesus had compassion and healed people. That, however, was not His ultimate purpose.

Jesus didn't say the apostles in that passage though, He said He who believes in me. There is still need to heal, and I have seen many come to the Lord because the Lord has revealed His love for them through healing them. He still still conferms His word through healing in my experience.

Also, those words were specifically directed toward His apostles, who DID receive the Spirit. It does not mean that all Christians throughout time will be given the ability to do works

So are you saying that we no longer recieve the Spirit?

Ephesians 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

First, how could the revelation from God be completed if the Revelation of God through John had not yet been written and provided to Christians?

Also, like what I said earlier, the ABILITY to prophesy, not prophecies themselves, stopped when that which is perfect came.

You didn't answer the questions. For what Agabus prophecied, that wasnt for conferming scripture but for helping brothers and sisters in need. The two witnesses prophecied, as in had the ability to prophecy.

"Made perfect." That is an important phrase. Let me show you what the Bible says about being "made perfect."

Are you perfect?

2 Corinthians 13:11 - "Finally, brethren, farewell. Be complete. Be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace will be with you."

- That word, complete, is a derivative of the word perfect in 1 Corinthians 13:10, which also means literally "complete." Remember, that which is "perfect" is simply that which is "complete." See how completeness, how perfection is a commandment there?

Philippians 3:15 - "There let us, as many as are mature, have this mind; and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal even this to you.

- Now that word, mature, is the exact same word used in 1 Corinthians 13:10. Teleios. See how it states the reality of being complete, of being perfect on earth?

Colossians 1:28 - "Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.

- Again, exact same word as in 1 Corinthians 13:10. It means completion. And "in Christ Jesus" does not mean "in heaven with Christ Jesus." We are all in Christ Jesus when we are baptized, having repented of our former sins and confessed that Jesus is the Son of God (Romans 6:3; 10:9-10)

Colossians 4:12 - "Epaphras, who is one of you, a bondservant of Christ, greets you, always laboring fervently for you in prayers, that you may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God."

- That first word there, perfect, is also teleios. Now this verse actually tells us how we may become perfect. By being complete in the will of God. That sorta sounds like 1 Corinthians 13, doesn't it?

2 Timothy 3:17 - "that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work."

- This word is artios, which means literally "by implication, complete". If you doubted my interpretation of the last verse, you cannot doubt this. I said that we are made perfect by being complete in God's will, therefore living according to God's will. Read the previous verse for clarification.

James 1:4 - "But let patience have its perfect work, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking nothing."

- Yep, teleios. You get the point.

The phrase "made perfect" to my knowledge, never alludes to the changing of our bodies when we leave this earth, nor any result of being with God in heaven. Correct me if I'm wrong.

We are being made perfect, but we are not perfect. We are still in our flesh. Think about this. If that which is perfect is refering to when we are caught up in Him, of course there will be no tongues, prophecy or knowledge, all will be revealed. Of course there will be no healing or miracles, because we will have perfect bodies.

1 Corinthians 15:46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.

1 Corinthians 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

55 “ O Death, where is your sting?

O Hades, where is your victory?”

1 John 3:1 Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of God! Therefore the world does not know us, because it did not know Him. 2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. 3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.

The bottom line is, you must clearly define what "that which is perfect" is, so that we may know when spiritual gifts (including miracles and healings, which are gifts of the same spirit) will fail. You cannot say it is Christ's return, for reasons I have already explained.

I can say it's Christs return. Your interpritation is not scripture, and the reasons you have explained are off base.

because I know (because my experience has shown me the power of God) that I am correctly interpreting the Bible.

I know because my experience has shown me the power of God also, God says He heals in the name of Jesus, Ive seen Him heal. God says that the Holy Spirit brings new tongues, I recieved a prayer language that has not changed one bit in 8 years. He says Young men will see visions, and old men will dream dreams. I have seen visions, and have had dreams where the Lord directly spoke to me. I have also His presence with me, that peace that surpasses my understanding. I was dead in my trespasses and He made me alive. Now, You call this all gibberish because you limit the bible only to your experience. seek the Holy Spirit, Jesus said the Holy SPirit will lead us in all truth, seek Him out on this. Look into what He's doing around the world, in Mosambique Africa, there has been around 100 people raised from the dead, and ministry spreads like a fire because the eyes of the blind and the ears of the deaf are opened. Look up Iris Ministries. Philip Mantofa is an Indonesian pastor who has a congregation of 30000 people, and when He preaches thousands get healed and come to the Lord.

Instead of giving glory to the Lord where glory is due, you elevate your interpritation as scripture. Now, my experience has sown me, that the Lord preforms His Word. He still moves in the same power as He did with the apostles. I strive to live my life according to His Word, I am not perfect and my knowledge is not perfected but I know and experience His love and power in my life.

[TheNewMan]

We are to desire love, and spiritual gifts help demonstrate His love. As I said I'm not disputing the context is spiritual gifts, but he still doesn't directly say miracles. Also, by saying tha tlove replaced spiritual gifts you are ignoring Paul tellling us to desire spiritual gifts, and persure love in 1 Corinthians 14:1. Think about it, if you're interpritation is not correct, then you are telling people to contradict what the Word of God teaches them to seek after.

Miracles are under the category of spiritual gifts. In fact, prophecies, tongues, and knowledge ARE miracles. You cannot deny that Paul says that miracles are a gift from the Spirit. And Paul told them to desire spiritual gifts because spiritual gifts were a reality in their time. However, since they are no longer a reality (because they have failed, which is why Paul said it was better to desire love), we are not contradicting the Bible or disobeying it.

But the two witnesses have the ability to prophecy in Revelation.

God's revelation was also not complete. Their prophecies were part of the revelation.

James is giving direction to a church. It says you will be healed, and the sickness is physical. Thats why he says "if anyone is sick among you" he already covered temptation earler in the first chapter. It is talking abotu a physical healing.

James 5:14-15 talks about a physical sickness. However, nothing about that healing is miraculous. And if it were, that still doesn't matter because they were in an age when the complete revelation of God had not replaced the partial revelation of God.

Jesus didn't say the apostles in that passage though, He said He who believes in me. There is still need to heal, and I have seen many come to the Lord because the Lord has revealed His love for them through healing them. He still still conferms His word through healing in my experience.

It was true for those in that time. It does not say that it is true for Christians of all time. To say so would contradict what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 13. You have yet to show that "that which is perfect" is anything other that the completed revelation of God. Also, now that we have the gospel, THAT is what we are to believe on. Romans 10:17 says that faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 1:16 says that the gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation for all men.

So are you saying that we no longer recieve the Spirit?

Ephesians 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

I'm saying we no longer receive spiritual gifts. That's the point you were making by quoting that passage in John.

Concerning Ephesians 1:13 - The Holy Spirit is our guarantee of our inheritance. That is the promise of the Holy Spirit. Salvation. It says that the word of truth was the gospel of their salvation, because they believed in God. Also, having believed in God, they were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, guaranteeing our inheritance.

You didn't answer the questions. For what Agabus prophecied, that wasnt for conferming scripture but for helping brothers and sisters in need. The two witnesses prophecied, as in had the ability to prophecy.

Prophecy isn't for confirming Scripture. It is for revealing Scripture. Agabus revealed God's warning to them.

Are you perfect?

I have shown you Scriptures that show you that we can be made perfect (that is, complete. Perfect in this sense does not mean sinless.)

We are being made perfect, but we are not perfect. We are still in our flesh. Think about this. If that which is perfect is refering to when we are caught up in Him, of course there will be no tongues, prophecy or knowledge, all will be revealed. Of course there will be no healing or miracles, because we will have perfect bodies.

And yet the Bible says we can be complete in our fleshly bodies. Hmm.. I'm gonna believe the Bible.

1 Corinthians 15:46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.

1 Corinthians 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

55 “ O Death, where is your sting?

O Hades, where is your victory?”

1 John 3:1 Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of God! Therefore the world does not know us, because it did not know Him. 2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. 3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.

None of those say that we must be in heaven before we can be complete. Our bodies are corruptible. We're not talking about our bodies, we're talking about our conduct.

I can say it's Christs return. Your interpritation is not scripture, and the reasons you have explained are off base.

Tell me why, according to 1 Corinthians 13.

I know because my experience has shown me the power of God also, God says He heals in the name of Jesus, Ive seen Him heal. God says that the Holy Spirit brings new tongues, I recieved a prayer language that has not changed one bit in 8 years. He says Young men will see visions, and old men will dream dreams. I have seen visions, and have had dreams where the Lord directly spoke to me. I have also His presence with me, that peace that surpasses my understanding. I was dead in my trespasses and He made me alive. Now, You call this all gibberish because you limit the bible only to your experience. seek the Holy Spirit, Jesus said the Holy SPirit will lead us in all truth, seek Him out on this. Look into what He's doing around the world, in Mosambique Africa, there has been around 100 people raised from the dead, and ministry spreads like a fire because the eyes of the blind and the ears of the deaf are opened. Look up Iris Ministries. Philip Mantofa is an Indonesian pastor who has a congregation of 30000 people, and when He preaches thousands get healed and come to the Lord.

Neither of our personal stories provide any benefit to this discussion. Truth is contained within Scriptures.

Instead of giving glory to the Lord where glory is due, you elevate your interpritation as scripture. Now, my experience has sown me, that the Lord preforms His Word. He still moves in the same power as He did with the apostles. I strive to live my life according to His Word, I am not perfect and my knowledge is not perfected but I know and experience His love and power in my life.

I do not. I never claim that my interpretation is on the same level as Scripture. I'm saying that my interpretation of Scriptures is, as far as I can see, accurate. My interpretation doesn't determine what the Scriptures say, I never claimed that. And I am not taking any glory away from God by claiming to have correctly interpreted His word.

I am not sinless, but the Bible never says that to be perfect (remember, complete) that we must be sinless. Completion is separate from that. But being complete on THIS earth IS stated in the Scriptures that I typed for you.

[enoob57]

Quest for the truth: when the perfect comes...

2 Tim 3:16-17

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

KJV

The seals put upon His Revelation the last of Word from God in the completed canon warns of subtraction or addition being logically deduced a perfect work completed with these eternal seals ...

Heb 4:12

12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

KJV

This is certainly at par with

Acts 15:8-9

8 So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us,

NKJV

1 Thess 2:13

13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

KJV

I would by say It is Perfect by It's own witness.... Love Steven

[enoob57]

Out of curiosity -- how many passages of the Bible can you claim that miracles have ceased? I would think if its a very strong doctrine there should be dozens of scriptures that one can use to defend the argument.

I have been seeking God in this George:

Ps 23 leads us into green pastures...

why would Christ lead us into signs and wonders as evidences of Him ... when He warns us here of the days we are in-

2 Thess 2:9-12

9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

NKJV

I do not need miracle to know they are and He is able to do anything! I also know He warns of this reality-

1 Cor 1:22-25

2 For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom; 23 but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

NKJV

Then seeking after Christ both wisdom and signs are possible but Christ to be sought not the sign nor the wisdom... Love Steven

[Believer112]

To know in part is having partial knowledge. You can see in scripture how the prophets and apostles all prophesied in part about Jesus and end times etc… What Paul is saying is that all (gifts) will pass away when we are in heaven but Love will abide forever.

John Gills Exposition

1 Corinthians 13:9

For we know in part

Not that the Scriptures, the rule and measure of knowledge, and from whence spiritual knowledge is derived, are imperfect; so that there is need of unwritten traditions, and of enthusiastic revelations and inspirations, to inform of things otherwise unknown; for though they were at sundry times, and in divers manners delivered, yet now they contain a complete system of divine truths, to which nothing is to be added, and from which nothing is to be taken away; or that only a part of the saints know the things of God; for though there is a difference between them, some have more knowledge than others, yet all have some, all are taught of God, and know him, and have that anointing which teacheth all things; wherefore the sense also is not, that only a part of truth, and not the whole, is known; for the Spirit of God leads into all truth; the whole counsel of God is made known in the Scriptures, and by the ministers of the word; though, to this sense the Arabic version inclines, rendering it, "some part of doctrine we know"; and so in ( 1 Corinthians 13:12 ) "some part of knowledge I know"; as also the Syriac version, which renders it (lylq ygo Nm) , "a little from much we know"; but the true meaning is, that though the rule of knowledge is perfect, and all the saints have knowledge, and every truth of the Gospel is known; yet by those that know most, it is known but imperfectly: the truth itself may be most clearly discerned, as it is revealed in the word; yet the manner of it, how it is, may not be known; and many difficulties may attend it, and objections be raised to it, which are not easily solved; as in the doctrines of the Trinity, predestination, the union of the two natures in Christ, the resurrection of the dead

and we prophesy in part;

the word of prophecy, as it sure, it is also perfect, to which we do well to take heed; and though all do not prophesy, yet all that do, and that prophesy aright, that is, explain the word of God aright, these preach the Gospel fully, declare the whole counsel of God, and keep back nothing profit able to the saints; yet still their prophesying or explaining the prophecies of the Old Testament, or the mysteries of the Gospel, is but imperfect at best in the present state of things.

1 Corinthians 13:10

But when that which is perfect is come

When perfect knowledge of God, of Christ, and of the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven shall take place; which will not in this life, but in that which is to come. So the Jews say ^F18 that at the resurrection, upon the reunion of the soul and body,

``the children of men shall attain to (hmylv hed) , "perfect knowledge";''

which is what the apostle refers to here:

and then that which is in part, shall be done away:

the imperfection of knowledge shall be removed; the imperfect manner of communicating knowledge, and of receiving and acquiring it, will cease: thus the apostle explains what he means by the cessation and failing of knowledge, and prophecy; not that knowledge itself will be no more, and a state of ignorance and darkness succeed; but imperfect knowledge will vanish away, or rather will be perfected, or be swallowed up in perfect knowledge; the imperfection of it will disappear; and it will be no more taught and received in part; the whole of truth will be clearly known.

^{We will know all things just as I’m known when we are face to face with God!}

¹² For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.