Mathew 24

[RCruise]

Hi yod!

I hope you did not take my post as a "personal" attack.  The Truth is, we are a lot more alike than you could suppose.

As a kid, even up into my early twenties, I was a notorious street scrapper.  Had the "bad boy" reputation and, with 2 other like brothers close in age (I am the eldest), we were feared when together.  Not very Christian like but, we weren't Christians.  I praise the Lord for coming into my life back then for surely, my rage would have possibly killed someone since I had already put several in the hospital prior to that.

I still pray for my brothers salvation.  One has buried his rage in alcoholism over the past 30 years and the other still flares up at the drop of a pin and can be physically dangerous to those around him.  I for quite a while (close to 20 years) became complacent and non-confrontational even in a back-slidden state for 17 years.  But, that is not good either.  Since my return to Christ in 1997, He has taken these weaknesses and made them strengths.  Oh, I still have an occaisional temper flare within especially when some racist bumps my Hispanic wife into a shelf and keeps on walking away laughing.  He didn't see me standing a ways off as I non-violently picked him up by the backbone of his neck and placed him on his knees before her to apologize (which he did quickly in front of a whole store of people).

Or, when a racist kid (17) up the street threatened to kill our daughter and I caught him in his driveway and lectured him on how I could let the Lord judge him right now within a second.  He doesn't walk or drive by our house at all and disappears into his house when I am outside.  However, in both situations, the Lord kept me from going too far.  He said; "Now Ron, remember I love these men also.."  I did respond on the last one with "are you sure you don't want him now?" :blush:

But, now as to fulfilled to a "t" on Matthew 24:22, the events you speak of were destructions of the entire temple and not someone "placing" an abomination in the "holy place".  It's fairly simply brother.  Plus, the event must make the temple "spiritually desolate" for the "holy place" is the "spiritual seat" of God.

God Bless.

[George]

LOL -- Are you starting trouble again Yod?  LOL!  

This is a question rarely asked, so I'll ask it to hear varying opinions on the matter.

Remember that Revelations was one huge scroll not separated by verses or chapters.  So why not read the last verse of Chapter 6 -- and then read Chapter 7 for the answer to the question that is raised in Chapter 6.

Revelation 6:17  For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

This is my question about the tribes and the irony involved and feel free to comment.

The 12 tribes listed only the tribes of Benjamin, Judah and Levi truly exist today.  The other 10 tribes were mixed with the Gentiles and thus have ceased to exist in its purity.  So this is the question that has to be offered.  

When you read Revelation 7 either you are spiritualizing the tribes of Israel and attributing those tribes to modern day Israel or you spiritualize the entire passage.  I believe the significance of Ephraim missing from Revelation 7 is unique since Ezekiel 37 describes the coming together of the stick of Joseph and the stick of Ephriam.

Can it really be said that Revelation 7 is a literal passage since many of the tribes listed have interbred with Gentiles?  

Do you see the irony involved?  Some will say that the listing of the 144,000 is a literal passage, but where are the "lost tribes of Israel"?  Then there are others that believe that the passage is entirely spiritual.  But in my opinion, both sides of the coin spiritualize this passage to a degree.

Remember the Lord taught the people and spoke only in parables.  I believe the passage is a parable of sorts -- just determining the interpretation of the parable is where people differ.

Your brother in Christ with much agape love,

George

[RCruise]

Hi George,

Yes, the Lord did teach in parables but, that has nothing to do with Revelation.  John is seeing visions of times yet to come.  The twelve tribes are specifically named:

Rev. 7:4-8

And I heard the number of them which were

sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and

forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the

children of Israel.

Re 7:5 Juda, Reuben, Gad,

Re 7:6 Aser, Nepthalim, Manasses,

Re 7:7 Simeon,  Levi, Issachar,

Re 7:8 Zabulon, Joseph, Benjamin

I have seen the verse about Joseph and Ephraim but, Ephraim incurred curses from the Lord (as I am sure you know) as well as Dan who is conspicuously missing.  Manasses remained faithful even though they took their inheritance before the Jordan and not in Caanan on the other side.  I am still researching the Ephraim and Dan issues but, in simple terms, they are not included here.  These tribes are literally named.  One cannot "spiritualize" them simply because we cannot discern or see in the flesh what God has ordained unto Himself in these last days.  Plus, the count would have to be "spiritualized" as well since then you are including all "Spiritual Israel".  There is times when "Israel" references in prophecy must contain all believers as a whole lest the Lord is excluding some of the faithful in His eternal promises.  Yet, there is times when literal, non-replacement theology must be discerned.

We are given full descriptive view of these men with actual literal ties that only our omniscient God could accomplish.  We cannot limit Him.  Even the Prophet Elijah thinking no other prophets stood with him (saw no other Israelite prophet alive) was corrected by God when the Lord told him He still had 7000 who had not defiled themselves with Baal.

These 144,000 we are told will be men who are virgins literally because we are told further that they have not known (defiled themselves with) women.  They are distinct from other believers in that they are sealed for their protection not from Great Tribulation but, from the Wrath of God about to be loosed in that seventh seal.  And, after they are sealed, while the Angels are holding back the wind of wrath from the four corners, we are told in the very next verse 9 that the redeemed (all believers both dead and alive) are in the throne room before the Lord.  A number that cannot be numbered by John.  These (us believers) are distinct from the numberable 144,000 because John cannot number us.  For whatever purpose (since nothing is said of what they actually do and all reference to their purpose by others is pure conjecture and speculation) God will protect these 144,000 virgin men while He pours out the Wrath.

God Bless.

[RCruise]

Also George and all who think limitations like the following:

The 12 tribes listed only the tribes of Benjamin, Judah and Levi truly exist today.

[Matthitjah]

Yod,

Apology accepted. No offense was ever taken. :thumb:

I agree with being absurd to show absurdity.

I am glad George weighed in on this. He knows I am seeking truth.

He also knows as should you Yod. That as a believer I bear no resentment or ill feelings towards Jewish people or their Faith.

My Lord and Savior is a Jewish carpenter. I had this very same argument with a Black gentelman one time who asked what would I do if when I get to Heaven I saw Jesus was Black? My response was, The same thing I will do when I see he's a Jewish Carpenter. I will fall at his feet and bawl like a baby. Thanking him for what he did. For surely I'm not Worthy. Only he makes me Worthy!

By the way I don't naturally profess to be right. Honestly I am seeking the Truth as well. I find honest discussion with other believers to be a portal to this.

Anyhow my question for all concerned?

What will G-d do to make the Stick whole again? (To paraphrase Georges allusion to Ezekial37)

Or what will G-d do to tear down the wall between Jew and Gentile?

I realize the signifigance of the Jewish faith in the World. Still they too must believe to be saved.How will this be accomplished? I honestly don't know? I'm looking for answers.

This is the reasoning behind my Spiritualization of the 144,000.

The thought of it being a parable is worth checking into.

I agree with the assesment of looking in chapter 6. The final part there about Who is able to stand? Is chief behind my reasoning as well as some commentaries I have read.

I would like to state that I have an open mind concerning scripture. I am not a know it all and if I come across that way forgive me.

Peace :inlove: Amen

[George]

Hello Ron,

God cannot break His Word.

[RCruise]

Hi George,

Yes, the Lord did teach in parables but, that has nothing to do with Revelation.

[George]

Hello Ron,

Actually I am not debating this issue.  I am just making people aware of the scriptures and the differing sides of the issue.  The ironies involved.  As someone that has read just about every angle imaginable I am just trying to play the "advocate" at the same time force people to think about why they believe the way they do.

Now I have YET to hear anyone give the explaination from any theological standpoint that the reasoning for the tribes is that the tribes are all NOW in Israel.  The logic being that when the NORTHERN tribes broke away from the Southern Kingdom that a REMNANT remained in the South because they were true to their God, thus intermarried with the Southern Kingdom.  Any males from these other tribes would have carried their "tribe" in the Southern Kingdom.  I have NEVER heard that logic ever brought up to defend the "literal" interpretation of this passage.

As far as your question and playing "the advocate" to pry your mind so you can learn to defend every question that may arise.

Revelation 22:3  And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:

4  And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.

Obviously a picture of those in the New Jerusalem.

Revelation 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father

[Guest shadow2b]

Hello Ron,

Actually I am not debating this issue.

[Guest shadow2b]

Hi yod!

I hope you did not take my post as a "personal" attack.