removing a church family from church

[Isaiah 6:8]

Hello my extended friends, yea its been a while.

What Im looking for is just feed back, we get all types here so i want to run this by you all and see what say you.

A few months ago I had to remove a family from our church. A year ago had a young couple want to get married by me. I told them sure and sat with them to let them know what needs to done in order for it to happen. At first they where good with what needed to happen. two weeks go by and I had not heard from them, i would see them and ask how is everything going, they said fine. Not to long after that we have our yearly fathers day outting I found out that they got an apartment together and had been living together for a few months now. I told them I could not marry them now. I still allowed them to come to church. The young lady has an older brother who has been coming to our church for years and was one of my leaders. I found out that he had been telling his sister that living together was not a sin, since they were getting married any way! I had no Idea he had this view. I talked with him and he just disagreed with not scripture to stand on. So I waited a while. During this time I find out that they are going to church members to discuss this and were dividing the church and people, new people would just walk up to and ask me about cohabitation and other questions about our fellowship, it was just odd. So I get an oppertunity to deal with both of these and asked them to stop speaking against me and our church, they refused, so i removed them from our church for promoting sin in their sisters life and causeing division in the church. I went to my pastors above me and they were divided on my choice. i have no regrets, but this was very hard to do. What say you?

Isaiah, nowhere is there any mention of them being born again. The brother is a leader but is he born again?

You must have missed this post

I did lead them to christ when they first started coming to the church. Again, its not about us beinging sinners, we are all sinners, however, we as pastors are responsible to maintain a standard for the church. 1 corinthians 5.

You see, we can not judge if they are truly "Born Again" only God knows. But we can know that they have accepted Jesus, and declared it with there mouth. That's what they did.

I think there is a confusion in the word 'church' are we talking about born again believers or are we talking about the people who gather on Sunday to hear the sermon preached by a minister/pastor? They are not necessarily one and the same.

You are right. There is a difference, He was clear that these were the latter Born again believers.

This young couple may not be born again as is evidenced by their actions.

Even Paul said he struggled with sin

Romans 7:13-25

New King James Version (NKJV)

Law Cannot Save from Sin

13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

As you see committing a sin does not make you unsaved.

In this case the best thing to do would have been to continue to counsel them and have others in the congregation to minister to them. The brother was not expelled yet they were. Even the other pastors were not in agreement as to what to do. I have posed this situation to a number of born again believers and I have yet to hear 1 (one) person agree that they should have been expelled from the congregation and that is all that it is - a congregation, The term church is being used loosely. Not all who call Jesus Lord will enter into heaven even the rest of that congregation yet they have been allowed to remain. Do they drink? Do they go to places where they should not? Who is to know yet they who call themselves Christian can stay? What about those who abuse their family? It is hidden and they are allowed to stay. This young couple with the right mentoring may have become shining examples of who Christ has come to save and have led others to Him. Where will they learn if not in the church? Perhaps the brother is the one who should have been chastised not the young couple.

Here is what you missed. what I hi-lighted above was this. He did not expel them for having an immoral relationship. He refused to marry them as the violated the terms of there agreement. No harm there.

He put the out of the congregation, (I'll use your terms) not just because of the sexual sin, but because they were sowing division in the body, telling others it was okay, even newcomers, who may not have known Christ. This was his primary reason. This is Biblical and supported in scripture.

If you read my whole post. I posted the testimony of a young man who was put out of YWAM for his attitude and sin, and he came back to the Lord to do great things.

[e lansing]

Well the key issue here is that these are not new Christians or unbelievers who are seeking Christ. They claim to know Christ already. Excommunication is an accepted and important process that helps people, certainly it is strong medicine, but it also is not permanent. This couple simply had to repent and they would be welcomed back right now. But part of being a hospital is administering medicine not making people more sick by condoning their sin and thus encouraging the sickness.

There is also the issue Paul speaks of, how the Lord's name is blasphemed because of the outward sin of Christians in Corinth. In this case he was saying look, there is sin going on among you not even named among the non-believers, you need to put the person out for the sake of Christ and your Church. He also said the person could come back though. We find ourselves in that situation today where the sin practiced within the Church is sometimes worse than sin practiced by unbelievers who mock the name of Christ because of our actions.

As far as the scripture E lansing used it was not just one verse, it was a pretty detailed description of the situation he faced and it gave guidance on what he should do.

1 Corinthians 5

Immorality Defiles the Church

1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named[a] among the Gentiles—that a man has his father’s wife! 2 And you are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he who has done this deed might be taken away from among you. 3 For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed. 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

6 Your glorying is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump? 7 Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us.[c] 8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

Immorality Must Be Judged

9 I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. 10 Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person.

12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? 13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.”[d]

They cannot be excommunicated . They are sinners in need of a Saviour.

Hi Littlelamb.

I think part of the problem is the common and incorrect understanding of excommunication. Excommunication is not saying you are not saved, it is not saying you are doomed and out of the Church forever. What excommunication is, is simply the final step in Church discipline, the point of Church discipline is to bring people back to Christ. A Church that cannot or refuses to practice Church discipline is hurting the Body of Christ not helping the Body of Christ. Why does St. Paul say to literally shun those who are openly and in an unrepentant way sexually immoral? It is not because he wants to stick it to them or hurt them, it is to show them the error of their ways in hope that they will through being shunned see the severity of their situation.

Amen... See the fallout of not being full gospel, we need to understand what the word of says about everything and anything unders the sun. I think this is why some are offended by my choice, they do not understand the authority structure God has sit up in the church, its for the growth and protection of the flock and it is all sit up out of love!! True Love is obeying His word.

e

[e lansing]

If you're comfortable with throwing these people out of your church then go forth and rejoice in your conviction. I just happen to believe you were wrong......since you asked for feedback.

Thats fine, I have 1corinthians 5 to support my choice and you have?

e

I see that you have found a passage to justify your decision....again, if you are comfortable with giving up on these people then more power to you. Are you, perhaps, a JW?

funny! I think others have articulated what I have been trying to say better than I, most get it and a few do not, and some come up with crazy things like "are you perhaps a JW". I think you know the answer to that question. You know I have stood up For christ on many other threads, something JW would not do. But in the small outside chance you are un sure, im not.

e

[MorningGlory]

If you're comfortable with throwing these people out of your church then go forth and rejoice in your conviction. I just happen to believe you were wrong......since you asked for feedback.

Thats fine, I have 1corinthians 5 to support my choice and you have?

e

I see that you have found a passage to justify your decision....again, if you are comfortable with giving up on these people then more power to you. Are you, perhaps, a JW?

funny! I think others have articulated what I have been trying to say better than I, most get it and a few do not, and some come up with crazy things like "are you perhaps a JW". I think you know the answer to that question. You know I have stood up For christ on many other threads, something JW would not do. But in the small outside chance you are un sure, im not.

e

I want to publicly apologize for the J..W. comment, E. It was an insensitive thing to do and another instance of machine gun posting. I am seriously asking the Lord to slow my fingers and make me reflect before I post. I'm sorry and I hope you will point it out to me if I act like this again. Work in progress, my friend, work in progress.

[Smalcald]

As a side point I think to quickly marry a couple for the sole reason that you want to bring them out of fornication is a major cause of divorce. Covering sexual sin is not a good enough reason to marry in my opinion.

A better way to prepare for marriage would be to practice purity for a period before marriage. This helps make marriage more special, it also shows commitment. If a couple cannot commit to practice purity for a couple of months prior to marriage how can they be serious about the major challenges they will face as a couple over their lifetime together?

[~candice~]

As a side point I think to quickly marry a couple for the sole reason that you want to bring them out of fornication is a major cause of divorce. Covering sexual sin is not a good enough reason to marry in my opinion.

A better way to prepare for marriage would be to practice purity for a period before marriage. This helps make marriage more special, it also shows commitment. If a couple cannot commit to practice purity for a couple of months prior to marriage how can they be serious about the major challenges they will face as a couple over their lifetime together?

Good point, I agree .

[Smalcald]

As a side point I think to quickly marry a couple for the sole reason that you want to bring them out of fornication is a major cause of divorce. Covering sexual sin is not a good enough reason to marry in my opinion.

A better way to prepare for marriage would be to practice purity for a period before marriage. This helps make marriage more special, it also shows commitment. If a couple cannot commit to practice purity for a couple of months prior to marriage how can they be serious about the major challenges they will face as a couple over their lifetime together?

I understand what you are saying also, but I think about what Paul says. It is better to marry than to burn. I believe that they should be married, rather than just left in that sin. I do believe it was a good move to remove them if they were causing divsion within the Body. But before that happened they should have been married.

This is interesting actually because I think that passage is often misused because celibacy among Christians has gotten such a bad name, but it is something that St. Paul was a proponent of for some people (not all). Here is the whole passage you are referring too.

"Now concerning the things of which you wrote to me:

It is good for a man not to touch a woman. 2 Nevertheless, because of sexual immorality, let each man have his own wife, and let each woman have her own husband. 3 Let the husband render to his wife the affection due her, and likewise also the wife to her husband. 4 The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. And likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. 5 Do not deprive one another except with consent for a time, that you may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again so that Satan does not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. 6 But I say this as a concession, not as a commandment. 7 For I wish that all men were even as I myself. But each one has his own gift from God, one in this manner and another in that.

8 But I say to the unmarried and to the widows: It is good for them if they remain even as I am; 9 but if they cannot exercise self-control, let them marry. For it is better to marry than to burn with passion."

St. Paul was not assuming that these people were already having sex, he was talking about the choice for lifetime celibacy or not. St. Paul himself choose that route. Yes if you cannot handle making a commitment for a life without a companion it is better to marry than to sit around thinking sinful thoughts your whole life to burn in lust.

I think this is essentially a different situation than someone in fornication who is refusing to repent. I think they should be married IF they want to make a lifetime commitment to one another under God, to do this I would say that they should walk in purity during their engagement.

One of the reasons that divorce is such a problem among evangelicals in my opinion is the idea that it is better to quickly marry two young people, rather than for them to have sex outside of marriage. The only reason they are getting married is to have sex, and that is a horrible reason to get married if that is the main reason two people are getting married.

[Fez]

There has been so much discussion and agreement and disagreement on this post.

Thing is....

When you pastor a church, or are in a leadership position, sometimes you are asked to make hard decisions.

Hindsight is an easy place to comment from, but when faced with the situation face to face, with scripture, the tears, recriminations, excuses, pleading, anger, the congregations divided views, on top of your own emotions, even after praying and applying scripture, the decision is something you wrestle with.

No one makes these decisions lightly, because they, and the words we speak, will be judged, not by man, but in the final analysis, God.

Therefore we tread lightly, hold the situation lightly, and hold it up to the Lord.

We will be judged not only by our actions, but by our words.

No pastor takes that lightly because it can be the difference between life and his death....

God knows our hearts......

[Smalcald]

As a side point I think to quickly marry a couple for the sole reason that you want to bring them out of fornication is a major cause of divorce. Covering sexual sin is not a good enough reason to marry in my opinion.

A better way to prepare for marriage would be to practice purity for a period before marriage. This helps make marriage more special, it also shows commitment. If a couple cannot commit to practice purity for a couple of months prior to marriage how can they be serious about the major challenges they will face as a couple over their lifetime together?

I understand what you are saying also, but I think about what Paul says. It is better to marry than to burn. I believe that they should be married, rather than just left in that sin. I do believe it was a good move to remove them if they were causing divsion within the Body. But before that happened they should have been married.

This is interesting actually because I think that passage is often misused because celibacy among Christians has gotten such a bad name, but it is something that St. Paul was a proponent of for some people (not all). Here is the whole passage you are referring too.

"Now concerning the things of which you wrote to me:

It is good for a man not to touch a woman. 2 Nevertheless, because of sexual immorality, let each man have his own wife, and let each woman have her own husband. 3 Let the husband render to his wife the affection due her, and likewise also the wife to her husband. 4 The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. And likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. 5 Do not deprive one another except with consent for a time, that you may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again so that Satan does not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. 6 But I say this as a concession, not as a commandment. 7 For I wish that all men were even as I myself. But each one has his own gift from God, one in this manner and another in that.

8 But I say to the unmarried and to the widows: It is good for them if they remain even as I am; 9 but if they cannot exercise self-control, let them marry. For it is better to marry than to burn with passion."

St. Paul was not assuming that these people were already having sex, he was talking about the choice for lifetime celibacy or not. St. Paul himself choose that route. Yes if you cannot handle making a commitment for a life without a companion it is better to marry than to sit around thinking sinful thoughts your whole life to burn in lust.

I think this is essentially a different situation than someone in fornication who is refusing to repent. I think they should be married IF they want to make a lifetime commitment to one another under God, to do this I would say that they should walk in purity during their engagement.

One of the reasons that divorce is such a problem among evangelicals in my opinion is the idea that it is better to quickly marry two young people, rather than for them to have sex outside of marriage. The only reason they are getting married is to have sex, and that is a horrible reason to get married if that is the main reason two people are getting married.

Sorry, who added passion. I will keep it as it stands in the KJV. Its better to marry than to burn. I understand what you are saying, but the reason for divorce in general is because eph is not lived. Christ is not there, and simply people are selfish. You don't know how long this couple has been together, neither have I. But if they are going go be doing the do and they want to get married, marry them so their bed wont be defiled.

It is from the new King James I think it is an accurate translation of what is meant.

But even if it is not and it means you will burn in hell; the point is they are refusing to stop prior to marriage this is a different situation than the decision to live a lifetime of celibacy as Paul did or to marry. If you marry a couple simply because they are refusing to stop fornicating even for a month, this to me shows they are not ready for Christian marriage anyway and of course have not repented of their sin.

Why would a couple not agree to stop fornicating during their engagement period at least? It would say to me that they don't really believe it is wrong just like any other sin we willfully refuse to repent of. Marriage will not cure that and in fact will set them up for divorce which is not better than the situation they were in prior to the marriage.

[winsomebulldog]

There has been so much discussion and agreement and disagreement on this post.

Thing is....

When you pastor a church, or are in a leadership position, sometimes you are asked to make hard decisions.

Hindsight is an easy place to comment from, but when faced with the situation face to face, with scripture, the tears, recriminations, excuses, pleading, anger, the congregations divided views, on top of your own emotions, even after praying and applying scripture, the decision is something you wrestle with.

No one makes these decisions lightly, because they, and the words we speak, will be judged, not by man, but in the final analysis, God.

Therefore we tread lightly, hold the situation lightly, and hold it up to the Lord.

We will be judged not only by our actions, but by our words.

No pastor takes that lightly because it can be the difference between life and his death....

God knows our hearts......

Well said, Fez!