Denominations?

[Dragoon]

So you're saying I can forgive sins by my power? Then I would BE God. I'm not

So you're saying the Roman Catholic Church Is God? Then I would reject it as a false god.

So you're saying the meaning of 'church' is unclear? Even when scripture itself tells us what it is??

And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.(Eph 1:22-23)

Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. (1 Cor 12:27)

I haven't denied the crystal clear words of scripture.

I've merely used scripture to explain what scripture says, in one case by using the very next line!

Because scripture is not a series of disjointed statements, but rather all of scripture is God breathed and speaks of our Lord Jesus Christ.

You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me... (John 5:39)

Honestly CK, if you spent more time reading scripture and less time reading RCC doctrine, you wouldn't be in this confusion.

You were not given the authority to forgive sins. The apostles were. It's written in crystal clear words in your bible and I quoted it above. You denied this in writing above when you claimed that no man has authority to forgive sins. Jesus gave HIS authority to the apostles to forgive sins in his name. You and I don't have that authority.

Do you believe that you are an infallible interpreter of scripture?

Infallible? No, that epitath should never be used with any man.

I am able to read what scripture says though, and to understand it through the Holy Spirit.

You say that I "denied (that apostles can forgive sin) in writing above when you claimed that no man has authority to forgive sins."

I'm afraid that wasn't me denying it.

It was scripture denying it.

Who can forgive sins but God alone? (Mark 2:7)

One of the marks of Jesus being God was that He could forgive sin.

Man does not have this power, and the apostles were just men.

...but you would know this if you read your Bible

[Dragoon]

chestertonrules

I have come to believe that the Catholic Church is the Church Jesus built. Perhaps with prayer and study you might reach this conclusion, too. I believe that the Catholic Church is led by the Holy Spirit and that it teaches in the fullness of Truth. I know that you don't currently believe this. I once believed as you believe today.

You can make the case that one particular protestant denomination is the true Church, but you cannot claim this for protestantism in general.

If two churches teach contradictory doctrines, then one or both must be wrong.

You have come to a false conclusion, and nobody here is going to join you. The RCC is a false church with doctrines that don't resemble God's Word. Those who are saved in the RCC are saved in spite of the RCC - not because of it. If you haven't noticed, this is NOT a Catholic forum. I, for one, pay no attention at all to your Catholic propaganda because I know how FALSE it is. I can't believe that you have been given free reign to do what you're doing. It makes me sad that the lost and the babes in Christ are even exposed to your false propaganda. Your doctrines are FALSE and don't resemble the Holy Bible, and everyone here knows it. Bluntly, you don't know or speak the TRUTH.

http://carm.org/roman-catholicism

The authority is God and God's Word - period - end of story. Hopefully, those with common sense will measure the TRUTH with God's Word. Using this measurement, the RCC has huge problems and is exposed as FALSE.

Millions are following Jesus into his Church every year.

Hundreds of protestant pastors have converted in recent years due to the increased availablity of information about the history of the Church.

The Church gave you the New Testament. Where did the Church get the authority to choose the books of the New Testament?

Interesting Chesterton.

Where in scripture does it teach that large numbers mean that Jesus is there?

Scripture actually teaches the opposite of what you say.

Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it (Mt 7:13)

If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you. (John 15:19)

"The Church gave you the New Testament."

Do not blaspheme. It is God that gives good gifts. Do not give His glory to men.

[Guest shiloh357]

One only need examine Christian history objectively to see that the RCC's claim to be the infallible interpreter of Scripture is a false claim. Much of what Catholicism holds to is based on tradition, and not Scripture, anyway. Scripture is subordinate to RCC tradition in their view.

Chesterton, people like you are dishonest about RCC history, and the tyrannical reign of the RCC which ended up in the murder of anyone who dared challenge RCC teachings. Simply translating the Bible warranted death penalty. Some of the darkest days of human history was when the RCC ruled Europe. RCC history is bloody and did not reflect the teachings of Christ.

The RCC was defanged when the masses were able to read the Bible for themselves and see that what they were being told by the RCC was not really true.

This is empty rhetoric and not worthy of Christian dialogue.

Catholics are sinners like all other humans. That is not relevant to the debate, however.

Scripture IS Catholic tradition. Trying to separate the Church from the Word of God is a useless exercise.

It is not empty rhetoric. You simply don't want to be honest about history. The RCC murdered people for daring to challenge it. History is replete with how RCC violated the teachings of the NT.

Look at how many men murdered their way to becoming Pope. That is fact of history.

Catholics are sinners like everyone else, but that is the issue. The issue is that the RCC sanctioned murder. You cannont hide nearly 1,700 years of murder, torture and imprisonment behind the idea that we are all sinners. The problem is that YOU cannot justify your claims when we look at what the RCC has DONE. The RCC at best, is a fraud because modern Catholics want to sweep Christian history under the rug. You don't possess the courage or the integrity to deal with it.

As for Scripture and tradition, the RCC does not equate the two. Again, you are not honest. The RCC stands on three things, the magesterium, sacred tradition and Scripture, in that order. The way it is played out ine RCC, Scripture is subordinate to tradition. What you cannot find in the Bible, you support with tradition.

To argue that Scripture is RCC tradition violates historical prorpriety. You interpret RCC tradition (much of which was really created in the middle ages) retro-actively back iinto the Bible. You make the Bible the servant to the RCC by forcing it mold around RCC traditions that were forumlated hundreds of years after the Bible was written.

[OneLight]

My first thought was to go through each of your posts and once again point out the false teachings you bring here, but after reading through the first couple hundred posts, I realized that I would have to post about a third of what you have written.

Fact is, in a nutshell, you use blanket statements about everyone outside the RCC, you have claimed that only those who are in the RCC are in the only church Christ started, and that everything the RCC teaches is the only truth there is being taught. You'll need to read through your own threads to wee how many questions you dodge.

If you want to criticize my comments feel free. Please don't fabricate positions for me using your own words.

Why would you ask me to not fabricate positions? Where have I done this in the past? Is this a means to place a question in readers minds that what I say may be a lie before I even say it?

As I said, I have found too much to post. There are major points that have already been pointed out and question have been asked, but for the most part, you just reply with different questions without giving direct answers. This is not communication, but a means of redirecting attention. If you were as concerned with the truth as you have claimed all through your posts, you would not dodge question, but answer them with your own words. I have not found where an honest line of communication has been developed in most of your responses unless a person happens to agree with you.

You distorted my statements.

I did not say that Truth is only being taught in the Catholic Church.

Again, what question do you claim I have dodged?

We can start with the three I asked in the post you just replied to.

Yes, you have stated that only the Church Christ started holds the truth, and that this church is the Roman Catholic Church. Your words:

• "A Church is either being led into all Truth or it is not the Church Jesus built. "
  
• "A Church being led in the fullness of Truth means that all of it's doctrines are true and guided by the Holy Spirit."
  
• and you quoted "For the first thousand years of Christian history, there were no "denominations" within the Christian church as there are today. Various offshoot groups certainly existed, but they were considered "heresies" and not part of the Christian church. Most were small and, until the 16th century, were never very influential. From the beginnings of Christianity through the Middle Ages, there was only one the Catholic ("universal") church. Basically, if you did not belong to the Church, you were not considered a Christian. "
  
• "I have come to believe that the Catholic church is the church Jesus built. Perhaps with prayer and study you might reach this conclusion, too. I believe that the Catholic church is led by the Holy
  Spirit and that it teaches in the fullness of Truth. I know that you don't currently believe this. I once believed as you believe today."

This is from just a few recent posts.

Which question do you claim I am dodging? I don't see a question there.

Really, then you did not read my post. My first statement was "We can start with the three I asked in the post you just replied to.", which are "Why would you ask me to not fabricate positions? Where have I done this in the past? Is this a means to place a question in readers minds that what I say may be a lie before I even say it?"

Do you really need me to go through all my replies to you and point out which questions you dodged, or would you like to do this yourself? <-- That is another question.

[Dragoon]

chestertonrules

I have come to believe that the Catholic Church is the Church Jesus built. Perhaps with prayer and study you might reach this conclusion, too. I believe that the Catholic Church is led by the Holy Spirit and that it teaches in the fullness of Truth. I know that you don't currently believe this. I once believed as you believe today.

You can make the case that one particular protestant denomination is the true Church, but you cannot claim this for protestantism in general.

If two churches teach contradictory doctrines, then one or both must be wrong.

You have come to a false conclusion, and nobody here is going to join you. The RCC is a false church with doctrines that don't resemble God's Word. Those who are saved in the RCC are saved in spite of the RCC - not because of it. If you haven't noticed, this is NOT a Catholic forum. I, for one, pay no attention at all to your Catholic propaganda because I know how FALSE it is. I can't believe that you have been given free reign to do what you're doing. It makes me sad that the lost and the babes in Christ are even exposed to your false propaganda. Your doctrines are FALSE and don't resemble the Holy Bible, and everyone here knows it. Bluntly, you don't know or speak the TRUTH.

http://carm.org/roman-catholicism

The authority is God and God's Word - period - end of story. Hopefully, those with common sense will measure the TRUTH with God's Word. Using this measurement, the RCC has huge problems and is exposed as FALSE.

Millions are following Jesus into his Church every year.

Hundreds of protestant pastors have converted in recent years due to the increased availablity of information about the history of the Church.

The Church gave you the New Testament. Where did the Church get the authority to choose the books of the New Testament?

Interesting Chesterton.

Where in scripture does it teach that large numbers mean that Jesus is there?

Scripture actually teaches the opposite of what you say.

Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it (Mt 7:13)

If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you. (John 15:19)

"The Church gave you the New Testament."

Do not blaspheme. It is God that gives good gifts. Do not give His glory to men.

Just answer the question, please.

Where did the Church get the authority to choose the books of the New Testament?

The 'Church' never had authority. The Holy Spirit guided the body of Christ in recognizing what was God given.

You give credit to men, when it belongs to God.

[Dragoon]

So you're saying I can forgive sins by my power? Then I would BE God. I'm not

So you're saying the Roman Catholic Church Is God? Then I would reject it as a false god.

So you're saying the meaning of 'church' is unclear? Even when scripture itself tells us what it is??

And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.(Eph 1:22-23)

Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. (1 Cor 12:27)

I haven't denied the crystal clear words of scripture.

I've merely used scripture to explain what scripture says, in one case by using the very next line!

Because scripture is not a series of disjointed statements, but rather all of scripture is God breathed and speaks of our Lord Jesus Christ.

You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me... (John 5:39)

Honestly CK, if you spent more time reading scripture and less time reading RCC doctrine, you wouldn't be in this confusion.

You were not given the authority to forgive sins. The apostles were. It's written in crystal clear words in your bible and I quoted it above. You denied this in writing above when you claimed that no man has authority to forgive sins. Jesus gave HIS authority to the apostles to forgive sins in his name. You and I don't have that authority.

Do you believe that you are an infallible interpreter of scripture?

Infallible? No, that epitath should never be used with any man.

I am able to read what scripture says though, and to understand it through the Holy Spirit.

You say that I "denied (that apostles can forgive sin) in writing above when you claimed that no man has authority to forgive sins."

I'm afraid that wasn't me denying it.

It was scripture denying it.

Who can forgive sins but God alone? (Mark 2:7)

One of the marks of Jesus being God was that He could forgive sin.

Man does not have this power, and the apostles were just men.

...but you would know this if you read your Bible

Jesus was given all authority by God.

Did he pass on some of this authority to the apostles?

What does the bible say?

21 Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” 22 And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

What authority do you have to reject these words of scripture?

Where have I rejected ANY scripture?

If you cannot find a place where I have rejected scripture, then I would suggest you retract your slander.

[OneLight]

My first thought was to go through each of your posts and once again point out the false teachings you bring here, but after reading through the first couple hundred posts, I realized that I would have to post about a third of what you have written.

Fact is, in a nutshell, you use blanket statements about everyone outside the RCC, you have claimed that only those who are in the RCC are in the only church Christ started, and that everything the RCC teaches is the only truth there is being taught. You'll need to read through your own threads to wee how many questions you dodge.

If you want to criticize my comments feel free. Please don't fabricate positions for me using your own words.

Why would you ask me to not fabricate positions? Where have I done this in the past? Is this a means to place a question in readers minds that what I say may be a lie before I even say it?

As I said, I have found too much to post. There are major points that have already been pointed out and question have been asked, but for the most part, you just reply with different questions without giving direct answers. This is not communication, but a means of redirecting attention. If you were as concerned with the truth as you have claimed all through your posts, you would not dodge question, but answer them with your own words. I have not found where an honest line of communication has been developed in most of your responses unless a person happens to agree with you.

You distorted my statements.

I did not say that Truth is only being taught in the Catholic Church.

Again, what question do you claim I have dodged?

We can start with the three I asked in the post you just replied to.

Yes, you have stated that only the Church Christ started holds the truth, and that this church is the Roman Catholic Church. Your words:

• "A Church is either being led into all Truth or it is not the Church Jesus built. "
  
• "A Church being led in the fullness of Truth means that all of it's doctrines are true and guided by the Holy Spirit."
  
• and you quoted "For the first thousand years of Christian history, there were no "denominations" within the Christian church as there are today. Various offshoot groups certainly existed, but they were considered "heresies" and not part of the Christian church. Most were small and, until the 16th century, were never very influential. From the beginnings of Christianity through the Middle Ages, there was only one the Catholic ("universal") church. Basically, if you did not belong to the Church, you were not considered a Christian. "
  
• "I have come to believe that the Catholic church is the church Jesus built. Perhaps with prayer and study you might reach this conclusion, too. I believe that the Catholic church is led by the Holy
  Spirit and that it teaches in the fullness of Truth. I know that you don't currently believe this. I once believed as you believe today."

This is from just a few recent posts.

Which question do you claim I am dodging? I don't see a question there.

Really, then you did not read my post. My first statement was "We can start with the three I asked in the post you just replied to.", which are "Why would you ask me to not fabricate positions? Where have I done this in the past? Is this a means to place a question in readers minds that what I say may be a lie before I even say it?"

Do you really need me to go through all my replies to you and point out which questions you dodged, or would you like to do this yourself? <-- That is another question.

I already answered those questions.

You claimed that I said that Truth is only found in the Catholic Church. I made no such statement.

Then I highly suggest that you learn how to read your own words. By implying something, and not coming right straight out and say it, is not only misleading, but cowardly. From your own words, I have shown you that you are indeed saying that the RCC, by your claims, is the only true church, being taught by the Holy Spirit, which we personally can not claim for ourselves, is the only truth there is, "Basically, if you did not belong to the Church, you were not considered a Christian."

Most everyone here can see the game of semantic you play and this upsets you. Like the word Catholic (universal) Church. In one place, you will say that this is all who believe in Christ, and in another, mean the RCC. You play your game this way, which is one of the oldest games to play with words. If you were more open and honest, then people would not get so upset with you, but you have yet to learn how to have an honest conversation. Trickery is being dishonest, and by not coming straight out and admitting something does not mean you are not pointing at it, claiming it is true.

[nChrist]

Are Roman Catholics Christians?

http://carm.org/are-roman-catholics-christian

[OneLight]

My first thought was to go through each of your posts and once again point out the false teachings you bring here, but after reading through the first couple hundred posts, I realized that I would have to post about a third of what you have written.

Fact is, in a nutshell, you use blanket statements about everyone outside the RCC, you have claimed that only those who are in the RCC are in the only church Christ started, and that everything the RCC teaches is the only truth there is being taught. You'll need to read through your own threads to wee how many questions you dodge.

If you want to criticize my comments feel free. Please don't fabricate positions for me using your own words.

Why would you ask me to not fabricate positions? Where have I done this in the past? Is this a means to place a question in readers minds that what I say may be a lie before I even say it?

As I said, I have found too much to post. There are major points that have already been pointed out and question have been asked, but for the most part, you just reply with different questions without giving direct answers. This is not communication, but a means of redirecting attention. If you were as concerned with the truth as you have claimed all through your posts, you would not dodge question, but answer them with your own words. I have not found where an honest line of communication has been developed in most of your responses unless a person happens to agree with you.

You distorted my statements.

I did not say that Truth is only being taught in the Catholic Church.

Again, what question do you claim I have dodged?

We can start with the three I asked in the post you just replied to.

Yes, you have stated that only the Church Christ started holds the truth, and that this church is the Roman Catholic Church. Your words:

• "A Church is either being led into all Truth or it is not the Church Jesus built. "
  
• "A Church being led in the fullness of Truth means that all of it's doctrines are true and guided by the Holy Spirit."
  
• and you quoted "For the first thousand years of Christian history, there were no "denominations" within the Christian church as there are today. Various offshoot groups certainly existed, but they were considered "heresies" and not part of the Christian church. Most were small and, until the 16th century, were never very influential. From the beginnings of Christianity through the Middle Ages, there was only one the Catholic ("universal") church. Basically, if you did not belong to the Church, you were not considered a Christian. "
  
• "I have come to believe that the Catholic church is the church Jesus built. Perhaps with prayer and study you might reach this conclusion, too. I believe that the Catholic church is led by the Holy
  Spirit and that it teaches in the fullness of Truth. I know that you don't currently believe this. I once believed as you believe today."

This is from just a few recent posts.

Which question do you claim I am dodging? I don't see a question there.

Really, then you did not read my post. My first statement was "We can start with the three I asked in the post you just replied to.", which are "Why would you ask me to not fabricate positions? Where have I done this in the past? Is this a means to place a question in readers minds that what I say may be a lie before I even say it?"

Do you really need me to go through all my replies to you and point out which questions you dodged, or would you like to do this yourself? <-- That is another question.

I already answered those questions.

You claimed that I said that Truth is only found in the Catholic Church. I made no such statement.

Then I highly suggest that you learn how to read your own words. By implying something, and not coming right straight out and say it, is not only misleading, but cowardly. From your own words, I have shown you that you are indeed saying that the RCC, by your claims, is the only true church, being taught by the Holy Spirit, which we personally can not claim for ourselves, is the only truth there is, "Basically, if you did not belong to the Church, you were not considered a Christian."

Most everyone here can see the game of semantic you play and this upsets you. Like the word Catholic (universal) Church. In one place, you will say that this is all who believe in Christ, and in another, mean the RCC. You play your game this way, which is one of the oldest games to play with words. If you were more open and honest, then people would not get so upset with you, but you have yet to learn how to have an honest conversation. Trickery is being dishonest, and by not coming straight out and admitting something does not mean you are not pointing at it, claiming it is true.

I wrote exactly what I meant to communicate. Perhaps you should learn to read and comprehend the English language.

You may as well post Jack Chick tracks if you are going to link CARM's propaganda.

Why not answer the questions I posed to you? No comments?

I do believe you are thinking you are replying to someone else while you quote me. I have never posted a link to CARM (in this thread) and I have been answering your questions. If I have missed any, please point them out.

[Dragoon]

So you're saying I can forgive sins by my power? Then I would BE God. I'm not

So you're saying the Roman Catholic Church Is God? Then I would reject it as a false god.

So you're saying the meaning of 'church' is unclear? Even when scripture itself tells us what it is??

And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.(Eph 1:22-23)

Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. (1 Cor 12:27)

I haven't denied the crystal clear words of scripture.

I've merely used scripture to explain what scripture says, in one case by using the very next line!

Because scripture is not a series of disjointed statements, but rather all of scripture is God breathed and speaks of our Lord Jesus Christ.

You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me... (John 5:39)

Honestly CK, if you spent more time reading scripture and less time reading RCC doctrine, you wouldn't be in this confusion.

You were not given the authority to forgive sins. The apostles were. It's written in crystal clear words in your bible and I quoted it above. You denied this in writing above when you claimed that no man has authority to forgive sins. Jesus gave HIS authority to the apostles to forgive sins in his name. You and I don't have that authority.

Do you believe that you are an infallible interpreter of scripture?

Infallible? No, that epitath should never be used with any man.

I am able to read what scripture says though, and to understand it through the Holy Spirit.

You say that I "denied (that apostles can forgive sin) in writing above when you claimed that no man has authority to forgive sins."

I'm afraid that wasn't me denying it.

It was scripture denying it.

Who can forgive sins but God alone? (Mark 2:7)

One of the marks of Jesus being God was that He could forgive sin.

Man does not have this power, and the apostles were just men.

...but you would know this if you read your Bible

Jesus was given all authority by God.

Did he pass on some of this authority to the apostles?

What does the bible say?

21 Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” 22 And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

What authority do you have to reject these words of scripture?

Where have I rejected ANY scripture?

If you cannot find a place where I have rejected scripture, then I would suggest you retract your slander.

Compare your opinion to scripture:

Dragoon:

One of the marks of Jesus being God was that He could forgive sin.

Man does not have this power, and the apostles were just men.

Jesus:

21 Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” 22 And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

Jesus granted his authority to forgive sins to the apostles.

This same authority is granted here:

Matt 16:19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

and here:

Matt 18:18

18 “Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

Chestertonrules wrote, "What authority do you have to reject these words of scripture?"

When asked for evidence of this slander, you write, "Compare your opinion to scripture."

A) My 'opinion' of scripture is not rejection of scripture

B) I do not give you my 'opinion' of scripture... I gave you scripture.

Dragoon:

X) One of the marks of Jesus being God was that He could forgive sin.

Y) Man does not have this power, and the apostles were just men.

Who can forgive sins but God alone?

(Mark 2:7)

Which of these 2 statements do you think is 'opinion'?

If you think that man can forgive sins, then you are still in error to assert that it is only the Apostles who can do so.

Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective. (James 5:16)

You seem to only be aware of 4 lines of scripture, and those lines you slant into glory for the Catholic Church. I would suggest you read the rest of it and give the glory to where it belongs; Jesus Christ of Nazareth.