Fez Posted September 15, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 683 Topics Per Day: 0.12 Content Count: 11,128 Content Per Day: 2.00 Reputation: 1,352 Days Won: 54 Joined: 02/03/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/07/1952 Share Posted September 15, 2011 Its nice that Ignatius understands this the way the Roman Catholicism does. I'm comfortable trusting in what scripture actually says though. You deny what scripture says. Ignatius learned the gospel from John. John quoted Jesus as saying: 53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. Ignatius said this regarding the gnostics(protestants of the time): "They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again." Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to Smyrnaeans, 7,1 (c. A.D. 110). Here's what Paul said: 1 Cor 11 27 So then, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. 28 Everyone ought to examine themselves before they eat of the bread and drink from the cup. 29 For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves. And finally, here's what Martin Luther said: "Who, but the devil, has granted such license of wresting the words of the holy Scripture? Who ever read in the Scriptures, that my body is the same as the sign of my body? or, that is is the same as it signifies? What language in the world ever spoke so? It is only then the devil, that imposes upon us by these fanatical men. Not one of the Fathers of the Church, though so numerous, ever spoke as the Sacramentarians: not one of them ever said, It is only bread and wine; or, the body and blood of Christ is not there present. Surely, it is not credible, nor possible, since they often speak, and repeat their sentiments, that they should never (if they thought so) not so much as once, say, or let slip these words: It is bread only; or the body of Christ is not there, especially it being of great importance, that men should not be deceived. Certainly, in so many Fathers, and in so many writings, the negative might at least be found in one of them, had they thought the body and blood of Christ were not really present: but they are all of them unanimous.” –Luther’s Collected Works, Wittenburg Edition, no. 7 p, 391 Yep, Luther was a real fan of the Catholic Church! You are missing the point, of course. The denial of the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist is inconsistent with Christianity. Even Luther knew this. Actually I have studied Luther, and many others quite a bit, and always go back to Luther. “All we who believe on Christ are kings and priests in Christ.” Concerning Christian Liberty - Martin Luther I just wondered why you would quote from someone who called the Pope the Antichrist is all... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nChrist Posted September 16, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 438 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 2,947 Content Per Day: 0.54 Reputation: 300 Days Won: 9 Joined: 04/28/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/18/1949 Share Posted September 16, 2011 Dragoon Unfortunately, Catholics also assign far too much weight to tradition, which is where you get a lot of the false teachings within the RCC. I've read quite a few writings by 'early Christians', and on the whole I find their writings in accord with what I believe. Where they differ from scripture, which do you lean towards? Do you place man before God's Word, or God's Word above all? For myself, I weigh men's thoughts by scripture, not scripture by man's wisdom. Amen! - God's Word is the Authority and the measurement of all TRUTH. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stacey c Posted September 16, 2011 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 37 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 913 Content Per Day: 0.16 Reputation: 19 Days Won: 2 Joined: 03/29/2008 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/02/1969 Share Posted September 16, 2011 I watched Pink Floyd's old movie The Wall the other night. Say what you like about it (I love their music), a couple of lines from one song spring to mind.... Not scriptural in any way, but pertinant to this thread.... "We don't need no education, we don't need no thought control" "All and all it's just another brick in the Wall" My point being, I don't need no mans writing, I don't need no mans doctrine. All in all that just builds a wall between truth and the true Jesus. I just need Jesus. Heretic!!! All true Christians like the Eagles better! There was some great music that came out of the early 80s though. Mark me down as being in the true Christians group........ the Eagles Rock.... Second Begees... I guess I'm a fence stradler, I like them both Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted September 16, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.95 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted September 16, 2011 I was raised in a Lutheran church, and they never taught the bread and wine to be the physical body and blood of Jesus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragoon Posted September 16, 2011 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 378 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 10 Days Won: 1 Joined: 12/21/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/18/1965 Share Posted September 16, 2011 Its nice that Ignatius understands this the way the Roman Catholicism does. I'm comfortable trusting in what scripture actually says though. You deny what scripture says. Ignatius learned the gospel from John. John quoted Jesus as saying: 53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. Ignatius said this regarding the gnostics(protestants of the time): "They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again." Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to Smyrnaeans, 7,1 (c. A.D. 110). Here's what Paul said: 1 Cor 11 27 So then, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. 28 Everyone ought to examine themselves before they eat of the bread and drink from the cup. 29 For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves. And finally, here's what Martin Luther said: "Who, but the devil, has granted such license of wresting the words of the holy Scripture? Who ever read in the Scriptures, that my body is the same as the sign of my body? or, that is is the same as it signifies? What language in the world ever spoke so? It is only then the devil, that imposes upon us by these fanatical men. Not one of the Fathers of the Church, though so numerous, ever spoke as the Sacramentarians: not one of them ever said, It is only bread and wine; or, the body and blood of Christ is not there present. Surely, it is not credible, nor possible, since they often speak, and repeat their sentiments, that they should never (if they thought so) not so much as once, say, or let slip these words: It is bread only; or the body of Christ is not there, especially it being of great importance, that men should not be deceived. Certainly, in so many Fathers, and in so many writings, the negative might at least be found in one of them, had they thought the body and blood of Christ were not really present: but they are all of them unanimous.” –Luther’s Collected Works, Wittenburg Edition, no. 7 p, 391 Gnostics are not protestants you deceptive git I posted scripture that contradicts your views and that of the Roman Catholic church. I suggest you deal with that before you accuse others of denying scripture. You quote 1 Cor 11:27-29. You leave out verses 30-31, which add clarity to this passage. That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep. But if we were more discerning with regard to ourselves, we would not come under such judgment. (1 Cor 11:30-31) The passage you quote clearly refers to the 'bread and drink', demonstrating that that is what they are... bread and drink. It even discusses getting drunk from it, which one does not become from blood! Here in verse 31, it elaborates on the 'discernment' mentioned in verse 29. When we eat and drink the Lord's Supper in an unworthy manner (which is discussed in verses 17-22 and 33-34), we drink judgement upon ourselves because we do this in remembrance of Christ... which is what 1 Corinthians says twice in verses 24 and 26. You still seem to think that posting the views of men trump what scripture says. It doesn't matter whether it is St Thomas Aquinas, Martin Luthor or Billy Graham. These are all men. All men are fallible... even those who were taught by John. It may surprise you, but Martin Luthor is not my God. ------ I've asked you several questions which you've ignored. Please allow me to repost some of them. 1) When the curtain in the temple was torn in two at Jesus' crucifixion, what do you think that signified? 2) Where men's views differ from scripture, which do you lean towards? Do you place man before God's Word, or God's Word above all? 3) Do these responses actually matter to you, or do you simply jump to your next point of argument? 4) Do you care about who God truly is, or are you committed to the Roman Catholic Church despite any scripture or logic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragoon Posted September 16, 2011 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 378 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 10 Days Won: 1 Joined: 12/21/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/18/1965 Share Posted September 16, 2011 The Catholic church was the first christian business. Big money in false idols and graven images Those are empty words. Study the early Christians and you will find the Catholic Church. That's too bad. When I read about the early church, I'm looking to find God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragoon Posted September 16, 2011 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 378 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 10 Days Won: 1 Joined: 12/21/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/18/1965 Share Posted September 16, 2011 I watched Pink Floyd's old movie The Wall the other night. Say what you like about it (I love their music), a couple of lines from one song spring to mind.... Not scriptural in any way, but pertinant to this thread.... "We don't need no education, we don't need no thought control" "All and all it's just another brick in the Wall" My point being, I don't need no mans writing, I don't need no mans doctrine. All in all that just builds a wall between truth and the true Jesus. I just need Jesus. Heretic!!! All true Christians like the Eagles better! There was some great music that came out of the early 80s though. Mark me down as being in the true Christians group........ the Eagles Rock.... Second Begees... I guess I'm a fence stradler, I like them both I grew up on "old time rock'n'roll", but early 80s saw me getting into a lot of New Wave and Alternative. While I still love the Eagles and Floyd, when I think of the 80s I think more of Depeche Mode and the Smiths. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted September 16, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.95 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted September 16, 2011 I watched Pink Floyd's old movie The Wall the other night. Heretic!!! All true Christians like the Eagles better! There was some great music that came out of the early 80s though. Mark me down as being in the true Christians group........ the Eagles Rock.... Second Begees... I guess I'm a fence stradler, I like them both I grew up on "old time rock'n'roll", but early 80s saw me getting into a lot of New Wave and Alternative. While I still love the Eagles and Floyd, when I think of the 80s I think more of Depeche Mode and the Smiths. "Why should the devil have all the good music?" You all should listen to Randy Stonehill, classic Petra, Phil Keaggy, and the like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted September 16, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.95 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted September 16, 2011 Randy Stonehill had one good album then got steadily flakier. I prefer Larry Norman. Phil Keaggy is an incredible guitar player but he usually has about 1 good song per album. I like several newer bands better than any of these, including the Newsboys, Brandon Heath, and Matt Mahrer. What do you think if these guys? I was trying to bring up bands and musicians from their era. I was an 80's teen, so the 80's Christian music is still my favorite. The ones you mentioned are good (although I'm still getting used to "the Newsboys" not having an Aussie accent!). Of the newest artists, I've gotten into Misty Edwards, Rick Pino, Jesus Culture and the like more than the mainstream Christian artists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stacey c Posted September 16, 2011 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 37 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 913 Content Per Day: 0.16 Reputation: 19 Days Won: 2 Joined: 03/29/2008 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/02/1969 Share Posted September 16, 2011 Randy Stonehill had one good album then got steadily flakier. I prefer Larry Norman. Phil Keaggy is an incredible guitar player but he usually has about 1 good song per album. I like several newer bands better than any of these, including the Newsboys, Brandon Heath, and Matt Mahrer. What do you think if these guys? I was trying to bring up bands and musicians from their era. I was an 80's teen, so the 80's Christian music is still my favorite. The ones you mentioned are good (although I'm still getting used to "the Newsboys" not having an Aussie accent!). Of the newest artists, I've gotten into Misty Edwards, Rick Pino, Jesus Culture and the like more than the mainstream Christian artists. I do like Petra, the Newsboys, Steven Curtis Chapman, MercyMe But some of my favs. are Kirk Franklin, and for awesome worship, Karen Wheaton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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