What ELSE Happens at the Gathering of the Saints?

[mizzdy]

Shabbat shalom, mizzdy.

...

This is rather interesting. I agree the tribulation has already started, and waxes and wanes but has been going on since Christ's return, and will continue until His second return. I find it unfathomable to be post mill, to me that logic is so warped I cannot begin to comprehend it. So I am left with a "post trib" (well, I have SOME issues with that position, but it's close enough) rapture and Christ's return before the Millennial reign (of which, I am not sure of the length). As for the 7 years, I really don't study it that much. Full preterism frightens me - the idea that we are in the Mill reign now seems so easily refuted. Some of what Christ said was fulfilled in the destruction of the temple in AD70 although I am not sure if that is enough to be considered a partial preterist?

There is a difference in 'tribulations', I believe we have been in a tribulation since Adam was thrown out of the garden, and with certainty since Messiah rose to the heavenly throne room. What Yeshua spoke of in Matt. 24 describes a thlipsis and a megathlipsis, a trib and a great trib. We will not be here for the orgay, the wrath which happens at His coming when we are taken up to meet Him. I guess I am 'pre-wrath' for lack of a better expression. I also see many prophecies that have dual fulfillments, just as everything God does in cyclical in nature I firmly believe there is nothing new under the sun and mankind has been through many many similar events throughout time. If we were in the millennial reign we would be with Him, wouldn't we?

shalom,

Mizz

Mizz, the "tribulation" (Greek: "thlipsis" = "pressure") that I believe Yeshua` was talking about in Matthew 24:29 and Mark 13:24 is what HE started in Matthew 23:38:

Matthew 23:37-39

37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

KJV

This, of course, is a quotation from Psalm 118:26:

Psalm 118:22-26

22 The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner.

23 This is the LORD'S doing; it is marvellous in our eyes.

24 This is the day which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it.

25 Save now (Hebrew: "howshiy`aah naa' " = Greek: "hosanna"), I beseech thee, O LORD: O LORD, I beseech thee, send now prosperity.

26 Blessed be he that cometh in the name of the LORD: we have blessed you out of the house of the LORD.

KJV

The Hebrew of this sentence in verse 26 is "Baruwkh haba' b'sheem YHVH." Literally, the phrase "Baruwkh haba' " is translated "Blessed, the-comer" but it is translated into English as "Welcome" at the airports and seaports of Isra'el (although usually in the plural)! Indeed, one might hear the phrase when one is welcomed into a Jewish home in Isra'el or into one's sukkah! Therefore, Yeshua` was saying that He would not return until the Jews of Jerusalem would WELCOME Him into their city IN THE AUTHORITY OF YAH, i.e. as the Mashiach Eloheeynu, the Messiah of our God! THAT is the "gap" that HE put in the timeline of the seventy sevens of Dani'el 9:24-27. HE left them desolate - bereft of their Messiah - until they welcome Him back! (And, they must do so "out of the house of the LORD" or out of the Temple, which therefore must be rebuilt.)

Therefore, left bereft of their Messiah and their house left desolate, they will suffer their desolation under pressure (thlipsis) until the day that Yeshua` returns.

The great pressure ("thlipsis megalee," or as you put it, "megathlipsis") was a CONDITIONAL thing! Don't get me wrong; there WILL be a "tees thlipseoos tees megalees" in the future, according to Revelation 7:14, but that is NOT what Matthew 24:21 is talking about. Yeshua` said,

Matthew 24:20-21

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

KJV

This is a CONDITIONAL statement! Essentially, He was saying that if they did NOT pray as instructed, that THEN there would be "great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." However, we know that the internal evidence of this chapter tells us that the details of this "tribulation" were experienced in the first century, and from history, we learn that no such "great tribulation" was experienced in the first century. Therefore, we should conclude that they were able to avoid it by praying as they were instructed and by God honoring their prayers. Yeshua` is NOT foretelling an event called the "thlipsis megalee" that will happen in OUR future; He was foretelling an event that MIGHT HAVE HAPPENED in His listeners' future, but was providentially avoided!

However, they were also promised that the pressure would not be constant but that there would be lulls and reprieves from the pressure periodically:

Matthew 24:22

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

KJV

This is why the history of the Jews' tribulation over the last 2000 years could be categorized into inquisitions, crusades, pogroms, and even the holocaust with periods of relative peace in between these events.

While we have suffered the consequences of sin, both our own and those of others who have gone before us, those sufferings can hardly be called a "thlipsis." If they could have been, why didn't Yeshua` mention it? No, this "pressure" is distinctive and separate from the normal "groanings" of this world.

I don't have time to go through larger posts most days but wanted to put this out, there is a difference between 'thlipsis and megathlipsis, which is what Yeshua spoke of for the end of the age. I certainly believe we have been in a 'thlipsis' since Adam was thrown out of the garden and more so since He rose to the heavenly throne room. Yet we are told that we will face a 'great tribulation' at the end of the age. And for the record I do not think anything is specifically for the 'Jews' but for all who know and confess Him.

shalom,

Mizz

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Mizzdy.

Okay, then. I'll make this short and to the point. Yeshua` was NOT speaking about a "megathlipsis" for the end of the age. The one HE was talking might have taken place in 66-70 A.D. if His students hadn't prayed as they were instructed to do. HOWEVER, they DID pray as instructed and AVOIDED the "megathlipsis" and just had to suffer through a "thlipsis," instead.

Stick to the Scriptures! Listen to what Yeshua` said in His "Olivet Discourse" and don't listen to what others SAY He said so much! "Let God be true and every man a liar!" (Rom. 3:4)

My post ends here, but I'll end it with a Psalm for you; read it at your leisure:

Psalm 89

1 I will sing of the mercies of the Lord for ever: with my mouth will I make known thy faithfulness to all generations.

2 For I have said, Mercy shall be built up for ever: thy faithfulness shalt thou establish in the very heavens.

3 I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant,

4 Thy seed will I establish for ever, and build up thy throne to all generations. Selah.

5 And the heavens shall praise thy wonders, O Lord: thy faithfulness also in the congregation of the saints.

6 For who in the heaven can be compared unto the Lord? who among the sons of the mighty can be likened unto the Lord?

7 God is greatly to be feared in the assembly of the saints, and to be had in reverence of all them that are about him.

8 O Lord God of hosts, who is a strong Lord like unto thee? or to thy faithfulness round about thee?

9 Thou rulest the raging of the sea: when the waves thereof arise, thou stillest them.

10 Thou hast broken Rahab in pieces, as one that is slain; thou hast scattered thine enemies with thy strong arm.

11 The heavens are thine, the earth also is thine: as for the world and the fulness thereof, thou hast founded them.

12 The north and the south thou hast created them: Tabor and Hermon shall rejoice in thy name.

13 Thou hast a mighty arm: strong is thy hand, and high is thy right hand.

14 Justice and judgment are the habitation of thy throne: mercy and truth shall go before thy face.

15 Blessed is the people that know the joyful sound: they shall walk, O Lord, in the light of thy countenance.

16 In thy name shall they rejoice all the day: and in thy righteousness shall they be exalted.

17 For thou art the glory of their strength: and in thy favour our horn shall be exalted.

18 For the Lord is our defence; and the Holy One of Israel is our king.

19 Then thou spakest in vision to thy holy one, and saidst, I have laid help upon one that is mighty; I have exalted one chosen out of the people.

20 I have found David my servant; with my holy oil have I anointed him:

21 With whom my hand shall be established: mine arm also shall strengthen him.

22 The enemy shall not exact upon him; nor the son of wickedness afflict him.

23 And I will beat down his foes before his face, and plague them that hate him.

24 But my faithfulness and my mercy shall be with him: and in my name shall his horn be exalted.

25 I will set his hand also in the sea, and his right hand in the rivers.

26 He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation.

27 Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.

28 My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him.

29 His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven.

30 If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments;

31 If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments;

32 Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.

33 Nevertheless my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail.

34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.

35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David.

36 His seed shall endure forever, and his throne as the sun before me.

37 It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.

38 But thou hast cast off and abhorred, thou hast been wroth with thine anointed.

39 Thou hast made void the covenant of thy servant: thou hast profaned his crown by casting it to the ground.

40 Thou hast broken down all his hedges; thou hast brought his strong holds to ruin.

41 All that pass by the way spoil him: he is a reproach to his neighbours.

42 Thou hast set up the right hand of his adversaries; thou hast made all his enemies to rejoice.

43 Thou hast also turned the edge of his sword, and hast not made him to stand in the battle.

44 Thou hast made his glory to cease, and cast his throne down to the ground.

45 The days of his youth hast thou shortened: thou hast covered him with shame. Selah.

46 How long, Lord? wilt thou hide thyself for ever? shall thy wrath burn like fire?

47 Remember how short my time is: wherefore hast thou made all men in vain?

48 What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Selah.

49 Lord, where are thy former lovingkindnesses, which thou swarest unto David in thy truth?

50 Remember, Lord, the reproach of thy servants; how I do bear in my bosom the reproach of all the mighty people;

51 Wherewith thine enemies have reproached, O Lord; wherewith they have reproached the footsteps of thine anointed.

52 Blessed be the Lord for evermore. Amen, and Amen.

KJV

In the Messiah's love,

Roy

Edited November 16, 2011 by Retrobyter

[mizzdy]

Shalom, Mizzdy.

Okay, then. I'll make this short and to the point. Yeshua` was NOT speaking about a "megathlipsis" for the end of the age. The one HE was talking might have taken place in 66-70 A.D. if His students hadn't prayed as they were instructed to do. HOWEVER, they DID pray as instructed and AVOIDED the "megathlipsis" and just had to suffer through a "thlipsis," instead.

Stick to the Scriptures! Listen to what Yeshua` said in His "Olivet Discourse" and don't listen to what others SAY He said so much! "Let God be true and every man a liar!" (Rom. 3:4)

In the Messiah's love,

Roy

In Matt. 24 Yeshua refers to a 'tribulation' and then later a 'great tribulation', a thlipsis and a great thlipsis. A tribulation that has been going on for thousands of years but at the end of this age a great trib will come to this earth one like none has ever seen, Yeshuas words not mine. I am not a preterist, do not hold to it at all, I see duality in prophecies also. And please refrain from the wordings about following others words, I take scriptures very seriously, I don't take myself as seriously, none of us have it right, not one of us. I can send you a link or two that shows the difference between the wrath (orgay) the tribulation (thlipsis) and great tribulation (megathlipsis) if you would be interested. I can show the many different ways thlipsis is used the varying words used to show it, I can show the wording of wrath also, in Rev. chpt 2 and 7 as well as other places we are told of a great tribulation, a megathlipsis, we even read about the saints here during this time. We cannot avoid tribulations, we are refined by those fires we go through, the elect are not to go through His wrath, there is a difference.

shalom,

Mizz

[Guest]

In Matt. 24 Yeshua refers to a 'tribulation' and then later a 'great tribulation', a thlipsis and a great thlipsis. A tribulation that has been going on for thousands of years but at the end of this age a great trib will come to this earth one like none has ever seen, Yeshuas words not mine. I am not a preterist, do not hold to it at all, I see duality in prophecies also. And please refrain from the wordings about following others words, I take scriptures very seriously, I don't take myself as seriously, none of us have it right, not one of us. I can send you a link or two that shows the difference between the wrath (orgay) the tribulation (thlipsis) and great tribulation (megathlipsis) if you would be interested. I can show the many different ways thlipsis is used the varying words used to show it, I can show the wording of wrath also, in Rev. chpt 2 and 7 as well as other places we are told of a great tribulation, a megathlipsis, we even read about the saints here during this time. We cannot avoid tribulations, we are refined by those fires we go through, the elect are not to go through His wrath, there is a difference.

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. Matthew 24:21-22

Amen~!

Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces. Daniel 7:21

[rollinTHUNDER]

I don't have time to go through larger posts most days but wanted to put this out, there is a difference between 'thlipsis and megathlipsis, which is what Yeshua spoke of for the end of the age. I certainly believe we have been in a 'thlipsis' since Adam was thrown out of the garden and more so since He rose to the heavenly throne room. Yet we are told that we will face a 'great tribulation' at the end of the age. And for the record I do not think anything is specifically for the 'Jews' but for all who know and confess Him.

shalom,

Mizz

Yup, same word, different application.

John 16:33

These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

We will go through trials and have various troubles in this life as individuals in this dark world. But the tribulation and great tribulation spoken of in Matthew 24, although it is still trouble, however, in this case it shows trouble for the nations in the world, not individuals. They (nations) will be in distress, preparing for the war of all wars (Armageddon).

Matthew 24:21-22

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Daniel 12:1

And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Matthew 24:29

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Now notice what comes next in both, Daniel and Matthew:

Daniel 12:2

And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Matthew 24:30-31

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Resurrection of the dead/gathering of the elect, after the abomination of desolation and tribulation or time of trouble.

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, mizzdy.

In Matt. 24 Yeshua refers to a 'tribulation' and then later a 'great tribulation', a thlipsis and a great thlipsis. A tribulation that has been going on for thousands of years but at the end of this age a great trib will come to this earth one like none has ever seen, Yeshuas words not mine. I am not a preterist, do not hold to it at all, I see duality in prophecies also. And please refrain from the wordings about following others words, I take scriptures very seriously, I don't take myself as seriously, none of us have it right, not one of us. I can send you a link or two that shows the difference between the wrath (orgay) the tribulation (thlipsis) and great tribulation (megathlipsis) if you would be interested. I can show the many different ways thlipsis is used the varying words used to show it, I can show the wording of wrath also, in Rev. chpt 2 and 7 as well as other places we are told of a great tribulation, a megathlipsis, we even read about the saints here during this time. We cannot avoid tribulations, we are refined by those fires we go through, the elect are not to go through His wrath, there is a difference.

shalom,

Mizz

Are you REALLY SURE about that?! Are you SURE those are "Yeshua`s words, not yours"? Have you truly studied the Olivet Discourse out in detail? Oh sure, I know the difference between "orgee" and "thlipsis" and "thlipsis megalee" in the Greek. I READ the NT in Greek! And, I'll go ahead and say it; there's no such word in Scripture as "megathlipsis." That's a made-up word coming from the PHRASE "thlipsis megalee." As such, it's like the made-up English word "irregardless!"

If you had studied it out in detail, you would find that Yeshua` wasn't talking about a future "thlipsis megalee" (or as you put it, a "megathlipsis") but was talking about the possibility of one "right around the corner" in 66-70 A.D.!

Don't get me wrong; I KNOW there will be a future one. We are told about it in Dani'el and Revelation 7:14, but that is NOT what Yeshua` was talking about at all when He used the words! Yeshua` was giving instructions to His Disciples - the ones standing and sitting right there, listening to His words - on how to AVOID going through a "thlipsis megalee!" Thus, Yeshua` never said anything directly about the future one in Matt. 24, Mark 13 or Luke 21!

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, FresnoJoe.

In Matt. 24 Yeshua refers to a 'tribulation' and then later a 'great tribulation', a thlipsis and a great thlipsis. A tribulation that has been going on for thousands of years but at the end of this age a great trib will come to this earth one like none has ever seen, Yeshuas words not mine. I am not a preterist, do not hold to it at all, I see duality in prophecies also. And please refrain from the wordings about following others words, I take scriptures very seriously, I don't take myself as seriously, none of us have it right, not one of us. I can send you a link or two that shows the difference between the wrath (orgay) the tribulation (thlipsis) and great tribulation (megathlipsis) if you would be interested. I can show the many different ways thlipsis is used the varying words used to show it, I can show the wording of wrath also, in Rev. chpt 2 and 7 as well as other places we are told of a great tribulation, a megathlipsis, we even read about the saints here during this time. We cannot avoid tribulations, we are refined by those fires we go through, the elect are not to go through His wrath, there is a difference.

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. Matthew 24:21-22

Amen~!

Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces. Daniel 7:21

Never quote Matt. 24:21 without also quoting Matt. 24:20; the two go hand in hand because they form a CONDITIONAL STATEMENT! It's like taking the statement, "When it is raining outside, I will always carry my umbrella," and shortening it to "I will always carry my umbrella." Is it correct to say, "I will always carry my umbrella?" NO! If it is NOT raining outside, then I may NOT carry my umbrella!

SAME THING!!!

It's just as wrong to say there will always be the possibility of there coming a "great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be" without the conditional clause!

[Guest]

Shalom, FresnoJoe.

In Matt. 24 Yeshua refers to a 'tribulation' and then later a 'great tribulation', a thlipsis and a great thlipsis. A tribulation that has been going on for thousands of years but at the end of this age a great trib will come to this earth one like none has ever seen, Yeshuas words not mine. I am not a preterist, do not hold to it at all, I see duality in prophecies also. And please refrain from the wordings about following others words, I take scriptures very seriously, I don't take myself as seriously, none of us have it right, not one of us. I can send you a link or two that shows the difference between the wrath (orgay) the tribulation (thlipsis) and great tribulation (megathlipsis) if you would be interested. I can show the many different ways thlipsis is used the varying words used to show it, I can show the wording of wrath also, in Rev. chpt 2 and 7 as well as other places we are told of a great tribulation, a megathlipsis, we even read about the saints here during this time. We cannot avoid tribulations, we are refined by those fires we go through, the elect are not to go through His wrath, there is a difference.

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. Matthew 24:21-22

Amen~!

Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces. Daniel 7:21

Never quote Matt. 24:21 without also quoting Matt. 24:20; the two go hand in hand because they form a CONDITIONAL STATEMENT! It's like taking the statement, "When it is raining outside, I will always carry my umbrella," and shortening it to "I will always carry my umbrella." Is it correct to say, "I will always carry my umbrella?" NO! If it is NOT raining outside, then I may NOT carry my umbrella!

SAME THING!!!

It's just as wrong to say there will always be the possibility of there coming a "great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be" without the conditional clause!

But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. Matthew 24:20-22

Amen~!

Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces. Daniel 7:21

[Montana Marv]

Roy

You need to go to verse 19 (Matt 24:19) - How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers. The condition is that it will be; One is to pray that there flight will not happen in winter or on the Sabbath. Then there will be great distress.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[NTMicaiah]

Yod,

Could I ask you a few questions? The promises associated with what the 70 weeks of Daniel accomplish and 7 years of triublation (2 sets of 1260 days) seem to make excellent sense to me. Do you belive in a literal 1,000 year millenium? Do you believe the things in the book of Revelation are true? Why does God promise a blessing upon reading it? Are the 5 months of scorpion like stinging literal? Have they been fulfilled already, and if so, how?

I look forward to hearing from you,

NTMicaiah