OneLight Posted November 7, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.23 Reputation: 9,763 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted November 7, 2011 If we accept that 12 are from the 12 tribes of Israel and 12 apostles we have 24 elders. If then Rev.4:4 precedes Rev. 5 the One who opens the scroll with the 7 seals is Jesus Christ. How can the 24 elders be in heaven before the scroll with the 7 seals is opened if there has not been a rapture? The 24 elders should not be in heaven. You are assuming they are who you say they are. The best thing to do when scripture is silent, is to be silent along with it. Assuming can lead to false doctrine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Littlelambseativy Posted November 7, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 230 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 4,941 Content Per Day: 0.95 Reputation: 2,003 Days Won: 14 Joined: 02/08/2010 Status: Offline Author Share Posted November 7, 2011 But Elders are only in the Church. No other place are they mentioned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mizzdy Posted November 7, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 173 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 3,911 Content Per Day: 0.66 Reputation: 212 Days Won: 10 Joined: 03/21/2008 Status: Offline Share Posted November 7, 2011 Personally, I believe it starts in Revelation 6. Who else but God can perform the events? Revelation 6:12-17 (NKJV) Sixth Seal: Cosmic Disturbances I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. Here are the testimony of those who witnessed the events, understanding what these events truly are. And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?” Is it the wrath that you see starting in Rev. 6? If so how do account for the scriptures further on in Rev. that show the elect still here? In Rev. 18 we have judgment on Babylon the great, which is the wrath of God. It is also the time the righteous and wicked get their rewards. God sends His angels to serve His will, we read everywhere in Rev. that angels are doing these things, of course its by His power alone that anything is done. I see things happening on a time line, wrapped up in the fall feast, I believe, are the ways to understand the end of the age. Not saying I know more than anyone else so please dont think that. I have come to see the whole plan of God wrapped up in the feasts, its truly interesting to read prophecy from a hebraic way of thinking. But I don't take myself too seriously regarding it all its interesting to talk about it all isnt it though. shalom, Mizz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mizzdy Posted November 7, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 173 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 3,911 Content Per Day: 0.66 Reputation: 212 Days Won: 10 Joined: 03/21/2008 Status: Offline Share Posted November 7, 2011 But Elders are only in the Church. No other place are they mentioned. Elders mentioned all over the scriptures, each with roles and positions within Gods heirarchy of called out assembly. Not too sure this can be the 'church' either since no one has yet to receive their white robes. It does make some sense to think they are a heirarchy of angels, such as Michael and Gabriel, both are mentioned in Dan. 10 as being chief princes, not exactly elders but makes one think. We do read about a council of God in the Psalms and Job. jer. 23:18 says this, 'For who has stood in the counsel of the Lord, And has perceived and heard His word? Who has marked His word and heard it?' We do not stand in the counsel of God nor in His heavenly throne room so I am not sure we can say who the elders are positively. shalom, Mizz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Littlelambseativy Posted November 8, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 230 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 4,941 Content Per Day: 0.95 Reputation: 2,003 Days Won: 14 Joined: 02/08/2010 Status: Offline Author Share Posted November 8, 2011 But Elders are only in the Church. No other place are they mentioned. Elders mentioned all over the scriptures, each with roles and positions within Gods heirarchy of called out assembly. Not too sure this can be the 'church' either since no one has yet to receive their white robes. It does make some sense to think they are a heirarchy of angels, such as Michael and Gabriel, both are mentioned in Dan. 10 as being chief princes, not exactly elders but makes one think. We do read about a council of God in the Psalms and Job. jer. 23:18 says this, 'For who has stood in the counsel of the Lord, And has perceived and heard His word? Who has marked His word and heard it?' We do not stand in the counsel of God nor in His heavenly throne room so I am not sure we can say who the elders are positively. shalom, Mizz These Elders are in Rev.4:4 before Jesus Christ opens the Scroll that has 7 seals. These are not nor can ever be angels. Angels do not sit in the presence of the Father or the Lamb. 4 Around the throne were twenty-four thrones, and on the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white robes; and they had crowns[b] of gold on their heads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLight Posted November 8, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.23 Reputation: 9,763 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted November 8, 2011 Personally, I believe it starts in Revelation 6. Who else but God can perform the events? Revelation 6:12-17 (NKJV) Sixth Seal: Cosmic Disturbances I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. Here are the testimony of those who witnessed the events, understanding what these events truly are. And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?” Is it the wrath that you see starting in Rev. 6? If so how do account for the scriptures further on in Rev. that show the elect still here? In Rev. 18 we have judgment on Babylon the great, which is the wrath of God. It is also the time the righteous and wicked get their rewards. God sends His angels to serve His will, we read everywhere in Rev. that angels are doing these things, of course its by His power alone that anything is done. I see things happening on a time line, wrapped up in the fall feast, I believe, are the ways to understand the end of the age. Not saying I know more than anyone else so please dont think that. I have come to see the whole plan of God wrapped up in the feasts, its truly interesting to read prophecy from a hebraic way of thinking. But I don't take myself too seriously regarding it all its interesting to talk about it all isnt it though. shalom, Mizz I believe when Paul spoke of being "caught up", this event will be sometime toward the very end of the tribulation, if not at the very end. I also believe that we will be protected through Gods wrath, not taken out of it. I can think of no better testimony of His love and protection for His people then this. I am not familiar with the festivals as most are, so I do not know when it will begin or end. I have been studying the sequence of how things appear to come about. I too enjoy discussing the end time events, though I will be among the first to admit that I don't hold all the answers. I can only go as scripture leads me. God Bless Sis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLight Posted November 8, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.23 Reputation: 9,763 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted November 8, 2011 But Elders are only in the Church. No other place are they mentioned. Elders mentioned all over the scriptures, each with roles and positions within Gods heirarchy of called out assembly. Not too sure this can be the 'church' either since no one has yet to receive their white robes. It does make some sense to think they are a heirarchy of angels, such as Michael and Gabriel, both are mentioned in Dan. 10 as being chief princes, not exactly elders but makes one think. We do read about a council of God in the Psalms and Job. jer. 23:18 says this, 'For who has stood in the counsel of the Lord, And has perceived and heard His word? Who has marked His word and heard it?' We do not stand in the counsel of God nor in His heavenly throne room so I am not sure we can say who the elders are positively. shalom, Mizz These Elders are in Rev.4:4 before Jesus Christ opens the Scroll that has 7 seals. These are not nor can ever be angels. Angels do not sit in the presence of the Father or the Lamb. 4 Around the throne were twenty-four thrones, and on the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white robes; and they had crowns[b] of gold on their heads. There is no proof who they are, so to enforce ones beliefs when scripture is silent is dangerous. Would you care to explain the verses that follow also? There were also four living creatures full of eyes in front and in back. The first living creature was like a lion, the second living creature like a calf, the third living creature had a face like a man, and the fourth living creature was like a flying eagle. The four living creatures, each having six wings, were full of eyes around and within. If you could help me understand what these represent, I would appreciate it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mizzdy Posted November 8, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 173 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 3,911 Content Per Day: 0.66 Reputation: 212 Days Won: 10 Joined: 03/21/2008 Status: Offline Share Posted November 8, 2011 But Elders are only in the Church. No other place are they mentioned. Elders mentioned all over the scriptures, each with roles and positions within Gods heirarchy of called out assembly. Not too sure this can be the 'church' either since no one has yet to receive their white robes. It does make some sense to think they are a heirarchy of angels, such as Michael and Gabriel, both are mentioned in Dan. 10 as being chief princes, not exactly elders but makes one think. We do read about a council of God in the Psalms and Job. jer. 23:18 says this, 'For who has stood in the counsel of the Lord, And has perceived and heard His word? Who has marked His word and heard it?' We do not stand in the counsel of God nor in His heavenly throne room so I am not sure we can say who the elders are positively. shalom, Mizz These Elders are in Rev.4:4 before Jesus Christ opens the Scroll that has 7 seals. These are not nor can ever be angels. Angels do not sit in the presence of the Father or the Lamb. 4 Around the throne were twenty-four thrones, and on the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white robes; and they had crowns[b] of gold on their heads. Are you saying that angels are not allowed to be in the presence of God? where do you find that? Isn't satan still an angel? and we know he goes before God all the time as our accusors. We also see a divine counsel in Psalms 82 where there are 'gods' there, these are angels, since we know men are not apart of Gods council in any way. We know God sends forth His messengers, His angels to do His work, how can you not think that angels are not able to be apart of it all? I would really like to know your reasons why these cannot be angels. As I said before these cannot be men, mere mortal men, God never consults man before He does anything, He makes the rules and then He tells me what He is going to do through His prophets. Highlighting the word 'were' makes no sense, these elders are in the throne room, no man goes to Gods throne room, no man can be in His true presence and live. We do not know who these elders are, and we can suggest all we want and unless we can find a witness in scripture as to the identity of them its still a mystery. shalom, Mizz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Littlelambseativy Posted November 8, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 230 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 4,941 Content Per Day: 0.95 Reputation: 2,003 Days Won: 14 Joined: 02/08/2010 Status: Offline Author Share Posted November 8, 2011 I never said that angels are not in the presence of the Father I said that nowhere in the Bible does it ever mention that angels sit in God's presence. It says that they are around the throne. They are messengers and in Michael's case a warrior for Israel others are ministering spirits. My point in pointing out that the 24 elders were seated around the throne of God is that this was after the rapture and all other events such as the 7 seal on the scroll being opened by the Lamb were again after the rapture. Otherwise they could not be seated beside the throne or robed in white garments. As for Satan, he is no longer Lucifer since he is a fallen angel. He was cast out of heaven but he still has access to the Father's throne to beg to torment the saints as he did with Job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mizzdy Posted November 8, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 173 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 3,911 Content Per Day: 0.66 Reputation: 212 Days Won: 10 Joined: 03/21/2008 Status: Offline Share Posted November 8, 2011 I never said that angels are not in the presence of the Father I said that nowhere in the Bible does it ever mention that angels sit in God's presence. It says that they are around the throne. They are messengers and in Michael's case a warrior for Israel others are ministering spirits. My point in pointing out that the 24 elders were seated around the throne of God is that this was after the rapture and all other events such as the 7 seal on the scroll being opened by the Lamb were again after the rapture. Otherwise they could not be seated beside the throne or robed in white garments. As for Satan, he is no longer Lucifer since he is a fallen angel. He was cast out of heaven but he still has access to the Father's throne to beg to torment the saints as he did with Job. Satan remains an angel, fallen or otherwise he has not changed his nature the one God gave him, still an angel just fallen and no longer redeemable. Who is in the council of God in Job and Psalms? it cannot be men as we cannot abide in Gods presence in our human form and we know that the resurrection has not taken place yet so no man, changed or otherwise is in the presence of God. It seems everything that you believe in Rev. and elsewhere seems to rely on the idea of a pre-trib rapture, how do you account for the elect still being on earth all the way till the bowl judgments? till the last shofar is blown? We have the seven seals, elect are present then, we see in Rev. 9 the saints are still on earth they are getting sealed. It is only after the seventh shofar has been blown that Yeshua comes again and angels gather the elect. What about when the two witnesses who are revealed in Rev. 11, there is still believers living in Jerusalem and God tells them to flee when the stuff starts happening. So how can these be the elect in white robes if they have yet to even see the return of the Messiah and be gathered to Him? When God pours out the last seven plagues, the bowl judgments the elect will have just been taken to meet our Messiah. shalom, Mizz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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