Paul was Pre-Trib

[OneLight]

I am afraid you are. God has not assigned us to any form of His wrath, therefore, the beheadings are not His wrath, but the doings of Satan. God allows Satan to have free will just as He allows us the same. Yes, God can use the workings of Satan for His good, but it is not His will that those who believe in Him die at Satan's hands.

I do believe that God will protect us from His wrath. Call it supernatural or not, makes no difference to me. He will protect His own as He has throughout history. I understand this goes against the AOG doctrine, but the truth is still the truth.

Bad move. I don't form my theology according to what the AoG teaches. There are facets of AoG theology and doctrine that I disagree with, so it is a little disingenous to accuse me of having my eschatology messed up because I tow some AoG party line. I don't. Right now, I am not even affiliated with the AoG, so let's let that one go. It isn't germane to the discussion.

Knowing your education, or what you have discussed with me in the past, I felt it was a honest call, but it appears not to be so. Forgive me if I offended you. I also know the AoG doctrine and this is one of their strongest beliefs.

Beheadings are not the only component of the Seals, Trumpets or Bowls. There are wars, plagues, natural disasters, supernatural occurrences, you name it, it's there. All these things are instututed, by God, to pour out His wrath on unbelievers. You may draw a separation there and believe that believers are supernaturally protected. If so, fine, I have no problem with your position. But most people don't. They say that we need to be 'tested" or that we don't get to "escape" because no one else has, or that wrath is no different from persecution. None of those positions can be supported, biblically-speaking.

Be-headings are not even part of the Seals, Trumpets or Bowls. They are from the commandment of the image of the beast, who was given power by the second beast, that those who refuse the mark. Read Revelation 13. v 15 "He was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed. " This is not part of Gods wrath, but hate and jealousy coming from Satan for refusing to follow him.

We don't get tested by God, once we are saved, to find out whether we belong to Him or not. He already knows that.

The church does not "escape." It is removed because it does not belong in that age. It has not "escaped" for 2000 years, so the entire "escape" line of thought is a logical fallacy. The church has not and will not "escape" anything, it will be removed because it's period of operation is finished.

Persecution at the hands of Satan or other people is not wrath. There is no parallel between the two. I see it drawn often and it is 100% wrong and inaccurate every time it is done. Not to mention un-scriptural. Every reason that people give for church age believers to go through the tribulation is false and unbiblical, if they think we suffer at the hands of God or need to be tested to find out if we actually belong to Him or not.

I never used the words "escape" and don't plan to. Neither am I here to argue when the rapture will occur. My concern was that you claimed what Satan does is part of Gods wrath. Your own quote is underlined and in bold above. What Satan does is NOT Gods wrath on man. His wrath is found in the Seals, Trumpets and Bowls, not from Satan's hand.

You know as well as I do that we agree in more then not. I just don't accept the pre-tribulation rapture.

[mizzdy]

Tribulation is different than wrath, the words mean two different things, God set apart ones will go through the great tribualiton but they are not subject to Gods wrath which happens during the bowl judgments after the angels have gathered the elect to Messiah.

Paul a pretribber! nonsense. How in the world could Paul be a pretribber when it wasn't until the early/mid 1800 when the doctrine jumped off the pages of scripture when John Darby realized theres a complete separation between Israel and the 'church' and Scofield picked it up and used that and dispensationlism as the basic of his bible. Paul never saw that, never believed the saints would not go through the great trib. Paul knows that Gods children are not destined to the wrath of God, the Day of the Lord is the wrath, the great trib is different. I suggest the author and others look up the words tribulation and wrath and see how they are different.

shalom,

Mizz

No.

Rev 6:16-17

16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!

17 For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?"

You can debate the first 5 seals, but it does not matter who it is speaking in the above passage, these people know it is the wrath of God being poured out upon them. That is the entire point, all through Revelation. They know it is the wrath of God, they know why it is being poured out and yet they continually refuse to repent. Everything after the 5th seal is God's wrath and to say that anyone pre-tribulation would be on the earth to suffer God's wrath both mocks scripture and calls God a liar. God promises the church that we will not suffer His wrath. The only way this theory can float at all is if one claims some kind of supernatural protection for saved people during this period which obviously does not exist because you have scads of people being killed for their faith and becoming tribulation saints. Dispensations are all throughout the Bible. They exist. As for what Paul was or was not, the only way you can concretely say anything about that is if you knew him personally. The pre-trib rapture, and a clear deliniation between the church and Israel is there, whether you wish to accept it or not. A pre-trib rapture was being talked about by writers as early as the 3rd century. Darby did not magically originate it. That is a false statement and usually repeated by people who wish to discredit a pre-trib rapture, but there is no truth to it.

First off it was Darbys work that was brought into mainstream thinking through Scofield and dispensationalism, but I am not going argue anyone about where it comes from. Tribulation is thlipsis, wrath is orgay, two different meanings, two different contexts and are not the same thing. We go through the megathlipsis, the word afflicted in Matt. 24 is afflicted or thlipsis and not wrath. If those princes are correct and it is God's wrath then we will not see the witnesses, nor the anti-christ. Rev. shows that the wrath occurs after the seven seals and seven shofar blasts, the seven last plagues are the bowl judgments and the wrath of God. Rev. 8-Rev. 11 we see the saints still on the earth, some are marked with Gods mark some take the mark of the beast, at the coming of the MEssiah at the seventh shofar we are then raised to meet Him in the air. During the last seven plagues we do not see any writings about the saints so it seems Yeshua has come then, after the witnesses, and that is when the bowl judgments are unleashed on the wicked and unbelievers that are left.

As far as the men in Rev. 6 crying out about the wrath, it is only men doing so, not one of Gods angels have made the proclamation that the wrath of God has come and that doesn't happen till later. It is mens thoughts not Gods, and He is the one who sends the angels out to annouce all that is going to take place, if Rev. 6 is the wrath then we will be here during that since we do see the elect after this in Rev. I can imagine men, the rich rulers, the ones who think they are in charge and then the great trib happens and they lose all, they are not liking this refining time and believe it is Gods wrath, but they have not seen His wrath yet and when they do they just may confess His name.

Noah was given 120 years of tribulation, of building the ark amongst heathens, mockery and whatnot, then God said get into the ark but God did not seal the door for seven more days, people could still come to Him if they came in faith, Noah and his family could still hear the mocking and tormenting of his neighbors and was pretty much subject to the elements both outside and inside that ark. It was only after seven days that God sealed the ark, we see the same messages in the feasts outlined as well as the end of the age. God gives man so many years of tribulation or trials, He then brings us to a place of safety but still part of the world, then He lifts us up as He did Noah and pours His wrath out on all who still will not bend their hearts and will to Him.

[rollinTHUNDER]

Tribulation is different than wrath, the words mean two different things, God set apart ones will go through the great tribualiton but they are not subject to Gods wrath which happens during the bowl judgments after the angels have gathered the elect to Messiah.

Paul a pretribber! nonsense. How in the world could Paul be a pretribber when it wasn't until the early/mid 1800 when the doctrine jumped off the pages of scripture when John Darby realized theres a complete separation between Israel and the 'church' and Scofield picked it up and used that and dispensationlism as the basic of his bible. Paul never saw that, never believed the saints would not go through the great trib. Paul knows that Gods children are not destined to the wrath of God, the Day of the Lord is the wrath, the great trib is different. I suggest the author and others look up the words tribulation and wrath and see how they are different.

shalom,

Mizz

Right on, mizzdy!

Not to bash anyone that believes in a pre-trib rapture, but the pre-trib theory is based entirely on false assumptions, misconceptions and misinterpretations of God's word. I went along with this theory for 15 years, until I started to dilligently study these things myself. I wish it were true, but many that believe this are going to have a rude awakening when they see the abomination of desolation take place, which will open the biggest can of worms the world has ever seen.

Jack Kelley may believe that Paul was a pre-tribber, but Paul said that our gathering will not come until after a great falling away and after the abomination of desolation.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4

1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

[mizzdy]

Tribulation is different than wrath, the words mean two different things, God set apart ones will go through the great tribualiton but they are not subject to Gods wrath which happens during the bowl judgments after the angels have gathered the elect to Messiah.

Paul a pretribber! nonsense. How in the world could Paul be a pretribber when it wasn't until the early/mid 1800 when the doctrine jumped off the pages of scripture when John Darby realized theres a complete separation between Israel and the 'church' and Scofield picked it up and used that and dispensationlism as the basic of his bible. Paul never saw that, never believed the saints would not go through the great trib. Paul knows that Gods children are not destined to the wrath of God, the Day of the Lord is the wrath, the great trib is different. I suggest the author and others look up the words tribulation and wrath and see how they are different.

shalom,

Mizz

I agree with almost all of this, except we are told that His Wrath comes in Revelation 6:17, before the Bowl Judgments. That said, we are not appointed to go through God's wrath, but to be delivered through His Son, Christ Jesus! He will not allow His Wrath to harm us one bit, but only those who are not His.

Ephesians 5:6

Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.

1 Thessalonians 1:9-10

For they themselves declare concerning us what manner of entry we had to you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

1 Thessalonians 5:8-10

But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation. For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.

If you read carefully the words there you see they are being spoken by men who feel as if the great trib is happening yet we still see the sealing of the tribes right after this, so its not the wrath being spoken of here but mans feelings on it. Also we are here when the witnesses show up so how can we be raptured in Rev. 6 but still be here to see the witnesses and anti-christ?

The Bowls are the completeness of His wrath, not the beginning, as I read Revelation.

Revelation 15:1

Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous: seven angels having the seven last plagues, for in them the wrath of God is complete.

If they complete His wrath what starts it? It is Gods angels that announce each event, that and the blowing of the shofar, if Rev. 6 says men are claiming the wrath is going on where is the announcments from the angels? Rev. shows us the sequence, the seals, the trumpets, the witnesses and then the seven last plagues which are the bowl judgments. So it does seem that the bowls are the beginning and ending of His wrath on the wicked and unbelievers.

shalom,

Mizz

[OneLight]

Tribulation is different than wrath, the words mean two different things, God set apart ones will go through the great tribualiton but they are not subject to Gods wrath which happens during the bowl judgments after the angels have gathered the elect to Messiah.

Paul a pretribber! nonsense. How in the world could Paul be a pretribber when it wasn't until the early/mid 1800 when the doctrine jumped off the pages of scripture when John Darby realized theres a complete separation between Israel and the 'church' and Scofield picked it up and used that and dispensationlism as the basic of his bible. Paul never saw that, never believed the saints would not go through the great trib. Paul knows that Gods children are not destined to the wrath of God, the Day of the Lord is the wrath, the great trib is different. I suggest the author and others look up the words tribulation and wrath and see how they are different.

shalom,

Mizz

I agree with almost all of this, except we are told that His Wrath comes in Revelation 6:17, before the Bowl Judgments. That said, we are not appointed to go through God's wrath, but to be delivered through His Son, Christ Jesus! He will not allow His Wrath to harm us one bit, but only those who are not His.

Ephesians 5:6

Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.

1 Thessalonians 1:9-10

For they themselves declare concerning us what manner of entry we had to you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

1 Thessalonians 5:8-10

But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation. For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.

If you read carefully the words there you see they are being spoken by men who feel as if the great trib is happening yet we still see the sealing of the tribes right after this, so its not the wrath being spoken of here but mans feelings on it. Also we are here when the witnesses show up so how can we be raptured in Rev. 6 but still be here to see the witnesses and anti-christ?

The Bowls are the completeness of His wrath, not the beginning, as I read Revelation.

Revelation 15:1

Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous: seven angels having the seven last plagues, for in them the wrath of God is complete.

If they complete His wrath what starts it? It is Gods angels that announce each event, that and the blowing of the shofar, if Rev. 6 says men are claiming the wrath is going on where is the announcments from the angels? Rev. shows us the sequence, the seals, the trumpets, the witnesses and then the seven last plagues which are the bowl judgments. So it does seem that the bowls are the beginning and ending of His wrath on the wicked and unbelievers.

shalom,

Mizz

Personally, I believe it starts in Revelation 6. Who else but God can perform the events?

Revelation 6:12-17 (NKJV)

Sixth Seal: Cosmic Disturbances

I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place.

Here are the testimony of those who witnessed the events, understanding what these events truly are.

And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

[Littlelambseativy]

Onelight, who are the 24 elders in Rev.4:4? and does what John sees in Rev. 4 precede the events of Rev.5?

[OneLight]

Onelight, who are the 24 elders in Rev.4:4? and does what John sees in Rev. 4 precede the events of Rev.5?

To be honest, scripture does not tell us who they are, so we can only guess, which I don't like to do. Yes, Revelation 4 does come before 5. Why would you ask?

[Littlelambseativy]

If we accept that 12 are from the 12 tribes of Israel and 12 apostles we have 24 elders. If then Rev.4:4 precedes Rev. 5 the One who opens the scroll with the 7 seals is Jesus Christ.

How can the 24 elders be in heaven before the scroll with the 7 seals is opened if there has not been a rapture? The 24 elders should not be in heaven.

[OneLight]

If we accept that 12 are from the 12 tribes of Israel and 12 apostles we have 24 elders. If then Rev.4:4 precedes Rev. 5 the One who opens the scroll with the 7 seals is Jesus Christ.

How can the 24 elders be in heaven before the scroll with the 7 seals is opened if there has not been a rapture? The 24 elders should not be in heaven.

As I stated, I don't guess. I know Christ is there, but we are not told who the 24 are.

[Littlelambseativy]

If we accept that 12 are from the 12 tribes of Israel and 12 apostles we have 24 elders. If then Rev.4:4 precedes Rev. 5 the One who opens the scroll with the 7 seals is Jesus Christ.

How can the 24 elders be in heaven before the scroll with the 7 seals is opened if there has not been a rapture? The 24 elders should not be in heaven.