The possibly False teachings of OSAS and Eternal Security

[Pilgrim_of_the_Dispersion]

I think we should not try to form the Scriptures around our beliefs, but form our beliefs around the Scriptures.

I read in the Scriptures that when we receive Christ, we are born again, not that we are born again so that we may receive Christ. God's love for us is infinite, spanning the entire creation. He does not select those whom He does not wish to be saved.

[He giveth more grace]

But anyway, no. Believing in baptism tags me as a Christian. And I was not aware that I like tagging people... but I'm sure you're correct in your evaluation of my character, considering you've read an entirety of 6 posts that I've made on this forum. What else do you need to assess my character?

I've make a bad mistake, I thought another poster made that comment, not you, I thought I was replying to him. I would never talk to you after that manner, Mr. Plimgrim, never having conversed before. I extend my appologie.

[Pilgrim_of_the_Dispersion]

I agree. And that is what I have done.

And I feel I am in good company when such an august body of divines as the authors of the Westminster Confession are in complete agreement with the beliefs which I formed from the Scriptures.

It's extremely dangerous to base the validity of your interpretation on the number or credibility of uninspired men who share your interpretation. After all, the leaders of the Jewish community in Jesus' time all opposed His beliefs, and Jesus was the extreme minority. The Roman Catholic church, which is one of the largest religious organizations in existence, is extremely inaccurate in its assessment of the Bible, and no matter how many seemingly important people agree with their doctrine, their theology is never going to be right as long as it contradicts the Scriptures. After all, the wisdom of God is infinitely greater than that of man's.

[enoob57]

Those who are truly saved will bear fruit. Even those of the OSAS belief have for the most part acknowledged that it is possible for a person to think they are saved when they are not. If that is the case, there is no real security,

thinking and knowing are two different vehicles! 'That you may know' Says His Word to me! Eph 1:18-21

because you could always be one of those who are deceived. If you really believed OSAS, you would have to believe that anyone that says a sinner's prayer and becomes a Christian is eternally saved, regardless of their lifestyle afterward. You would have to believe that even someone like Judas Iscariot who was an apostle was saved, because he was once a believer. If you don't believe that, then you really don't believe in eternal security, because there is that possibility that you went through the motions of getting saved, but it never really took. Why is it ok for you to believe another poor soul was deceived into thinking they were saved, but not you?

It really isn't about me anymore but The Precious Person of God The Holy Spirit within me.... it is like there are many topics to speak but I'd rather of Him and His Word be the engaged aspect of thought and reason so I am His and what I am will be to His Glory and the me is resigned to He... He never lies, deceives or mis anything! The whole of my being I willingly give Him and my freedom becomes my doing in Him... I have been given a Love that I cannot run out of no matter the furious effort of giving it to others who may hate me or not! In my poor simple effort to draw near to Him by loosing my hold upon this life and world I am consumed so pleasantly by His Awesome Presence that I am effectively changed to never return to that from which I have been delivered from... It is fact as the children who recognize the path on which they also have come! There is nothing in comparison to that of His Presence within and the Spiritual resolve He brings with Him and installs within the Living Room of His Presence within!.... His sealing us is the experienced gifting of value apart from this worlds understanding and we give all that we are in the waiting of The Redemption.... I know of its increase or decrease without end and the matter of amounts is the foolishness of here and must be unlearned for its least and great are the same in my Father's House! I lay blind in my faith as my Seeing Lord looks upon the hearts of others and He gives to my heart the things based on that sight of His... so that as I do He rewards by the workings within that sight the outcome of His unseen hands through me to the need of those hearts.

Jn 3:7-8

7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

NKJV

Judas would not ever receive this death of self in himself for his taking of his own life testifies of this truth of not desiring to be with Christ or allowing the judgment of The Lord upon him.... he was sorry in his self righteous state to be revealed so yet unrepentant!

God judged him while still living to be of satan's fullness Jn 17:1, 2Th 2:3 and this is the only judgment we can apply is Christ's! Love, Steven

[Botz]

I have been following this interesting discussion for a while...thanks to all who have laboured so articulately to express their understanding of what being 'born again' actually involves.

I am one of those who believes that once a person is born of the Spirit he has undergone an irreversible transformation, and does not maintain his salvation through the works that

he does or the way that he lives, although if a person is truly redeemed one would expect the fruit of the Spirit to be evident and confirm their claims.

I agree with much of what Eleanor has posted, although I baulk somewhat at the idea of being reborn 'before believing', but that's another thread really.

I don't think we have to worry about the security of Believers, in the sense that did they really believe or not...at least not in the sort of set up I belong to....I see so many

people responding the message of salvation, saying the sinners prayer and beginning to come to be with other Believers, but then something happens and you never see

them again....were they truly saved? G-d knows, and none of us know where their life might lead and when the Spirit might breathe on the embers of their heart.

What I do know from my own experience, and I believe from Scripture is that once G-d has revealed Himself to you, and you have been filled with the Holy Ghost

you can never escape His Presence....you now have permanent 'G-d awareness', and yet you still have free choice to be led by the Spirit or led by the Flesh.

If a person actively decides like Demas to go back into the world and subject themselves to what the world offers, it is my understanding that there will come a time

when they face G-d, and most of what they have been through Messiah will be burnt up in the Holy flames as it is revealed as wood, hay and stubble...their salvation

is not in question....but I believe that coming to the end of your life in guilt and uncertainty is a terrible indictment on what a person does with so great a gift, and

I have never heard a sermon on the fear of facing Jesus only to tell Him that you abused your salvation and frittered away your inheritance.

I have not included Scriptures at this juncture, but will gladly discuss why I hold this understanding....I think it is important that even when we have strong conflicting

opinions about the thrust of Scripture, we approach each other in humility, always open to be spoken to by the Spirit...as it is truth that we seek not confirmation of

our own intelligence. I can honestly say that if Scripture and the Spirit demoinstrate otherwise I am open to such persuasion....indeed I would be a fool if I wasn't.

Best regards. Botz

[enoob57]

Ro 5:15-16 - ". . .so also the free gift. . .for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification."

If I have to do all those things you say above, then salvation is not free. That's a contradiction of Ro 5:15-16.

You say I have to earn the gift. And that's a contradiction of terms.

Nope. I didn't say that. In fact, I specifically said in my post that I was NOT saying that we are earning the gift by our works. I said that very specifically. You might want to go back and read my post again, so that we don't have any more communications.

Pardon my metaphor: but if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck.

Your requirement of obedience to receive salvation is having to earn the gift, no matter what you call it.

Look at it this way. You realize that God demands belief, do you not? The Bible VERY clearly says that if a human being does not believe in God, he will not be saved. Therefore you are saying that one must meet the condition of belief in order to be provided with salvation.

Belief is the result of rebirth.

I cannot even see the kingdom of God, much less believe it, unless I am born again (Jn 3:3).

And I cannot accomplish rebirth myself. It is accomplished by the power of the Spirit (Gal 4:29, where Sarah was sterile and could not birth).

We have nothing at all to do with our spiritual birth, just as we have nothing at all to do with our natural birth.

Or do you think that God just throws out salvation to everyone, because it is "free"? I certainly hope you would not stoop to such a blind doctrine. I believe that you are far more logical than that.

Let it be clear that when I say that God requires obedience of us in order to give us salvation, I am no more saying that we are earning it than YOU are saying that we earn our salvation by our belief.

I am not the author/source of my belief, God is, through the new birth.

Therefore, God's salvation by faith is a free gift.

That is the gospel.

But I am the author/source of any obedience required to receive the gift of salvation.

Therefore, the gift of salvation must be earned.

That is gospel eradicating.

You (whether you realize it or not) admit that someone must meet a condition of God's choosing before He will bestow the gift of salvation to us. I believe the same thing, I just believe that there are MORE conditions to be met than simply belief.

And your belief is not in agreement with Scripture.

If it smells like a duck, and has webbed feet- it's a duck...

[taylor30]

The point I am making is that even though the person who gets saved but doesn't continue following Jesus would have gone to heaven had he or she died before backsliding, it was already God's plan that they would live long enough to where they would fall away. In that sense, they were never really his sheep

The Bible does not present the absolute sovereignty of God in salvation that way.

Nor does it present foreknowledge, predestination, and election that way.

That is where our difference lies.

Here is where the mix up lies. If you are chosen of God to be saved, you will be saved. No man, including you can cause your end to be anything but eternally saved. The problem is, you have no way of knowing if you are really one of the chosen of God. You yourself said that some who think they are saved really aren't. If it is possible to deceive yourself into thinking you are saved, then there is nk real security.

Eternal security is not about what I know, it's about what God does--preserves me in faith.

If I'm saved, I'm eternally secure because of what God does, whether I know it or not.

However, God has given us a way to know that we are saved; i.e., the inner witness of the Holy Spirit.

It is the witness (testimony) of the Holy Spirit himself bearing witness (agreeing) with our spirits that we are God's children (Ro 8:16).

However, that witness can be quenched by continual disobedience. . .and restored by obedience.

Ours is not a mix up, Butero. It is a difference in understanding of what the Bible presents.

The Bible does present God's soveign will in that way. The more time I spend in the Bible, the more obvious it becomes. You can see it with Jacob and Esau. You can see it in the way Jesus could tell Peter that he would deny him thrice and later be converted. You can see it with the Prophet Jeremiah. You can see it with Judas Iscariot. You can see it with the Apostle Paul, in that God chosen him specifically to be his chosen vessel, rather than the many others like Gamileo, his instructor in the law. God is fully in control of everything, much more than people realize. He is not hands off of his creation. He is very active in all things. Nothing happens by chance, and that includes who is saved and who is lost.

I meant the opposite of what you thought.

I am in complete agreement with what you believe about the sovereignty of God.

Our difference is not that you go too far, but that you don't go far enough.

I applaud your embracing of what Scripture presents on the sovereignty of God.

But it's the way you seek to reconcile it to your belief regarding eternal security that is not Biblical.

That's why I say the Bible does not present the absolute sovereignty of God in salvation, or foreknowledge, predestination and election that way.

Hello, I hope my 2¢ is not unwanted, but in my opinion the reason people have so much disagreement is because they don't seperate the difference between what God knows and,what he allows. Just because God knows all things does not mean he causes everything. God does KNOW who will recieve and reject him ( though we don't know until we make the choice ) but he does not make the choice for us. I hope I am not off topic and apologize for butting in. God Bless.

[Guest]

.... That is, how do you know you are saved....

I

Of sin, because they believe not on me; John 16:9

Know I Am Saved

Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee. Psalm 119:11

Because God Hath Said It

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. John 6:47

And Knowing God Does Not Lie

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 2 Peter 3:11

I Know That The LORD God Is Truly The God Of Love

And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him. 1 John 4:16

And I Know That God Does Not Repent

And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me. Jeremiah 32:40

For It Is Written God Be True

For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged. Romans 3:3-4

Even If I And All Men

Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him: but I will maintain mine own ways before him. Job 13:15

Be Liars

~

Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:

The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27

Love, Your Brother Joe

And the child Samuel ministered unto the LORD before Eli. And the word of the LORD was precious in those days; there was no open vision. 2 Samuel 3:1

[Guest]

God knows all things, and he does not make the choice for us to receive or reject him.

He is, however, "behind the scenes," so to speak, on that one, definitely effecting the outcome....

That Open Hand

I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. Revelation 22:16-17

Stretching Down From Heaven

Mercy and truth are met together; righteousness and peace have kissed each other. Truth shall spring out of the earth; and righteousness shall look down from heaven. Psalms 85:10-11

Belongs To The Keeper Of The Children

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Philippians 2:12-13

~

So Believe

And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan.

And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:

And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Mark 1:9-11

And Put Your Hand In The Hand Of The Man From Galilee

And they brought young children to him, that he should touch them: and his disciples rebuked those that brought them.

But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.

And he took them up in his arms, put his hands upon them, and blessed them. Mark 10:13-16

And Be Blessed Beloved

Love, Joe

[enoob57]

This is an extremely fair questioning! I must preface before I portion and answer!

I have been a man of extremes... severally so! I have knowingly disobeyed God to enjoy fleshly appetites! I have done things that are so wrong that I cannot forget or divide out the wretchedness of my being (flesh portion)... Because I have seen the end of the roads of many sins and falsehood of perversions to deceitfully appear as continuing newness to those dead end sins I can say this: If God is not then there is absolutely nothing to live for in this life!!!! However in His grace and mercy (and miracles) I know that He 'IS' and I am in settled relationship with His Person so that I haven't any 'if God is' in my experienced psychic! I have one purpose, one need, one hope, one desire, one everything -> It is my Lord Jesus Christ and this is this way because I have seen the idol so clearly and that spiritual substance is more sure in my inward man than the body and ground that passes away and presently whispers lies of assurance that it does not! How else could we work all day in the care of bodies and not be concerned that we have tended little to the eternal spirit of permanent dwelling with God in our new home? The Mary and Martha syndrome of church wide occurence...

Let me ask you a question. You seem to have a close relationship with Christ, based on your testimony. That is how you know you are saved.

My friend you have experienced a deepening of relationship with Him as obedience and sacrifices occur in body due to those obediences?!... think on how you were and what you were before and after those spiritual growth spurts. Now imagine doing it to an extreme so that those around you considered you losing touch with reality as they perceive it! Growth in God is now proportional to that given up in flesh yet at same time realized in Spirit life and so founded in a deeper meaning and substance that what was given up physically appears now to be dung and there is no way to trade a Pearl of Great Price back for dung!!! As this life of spiritual reality now progressively ensues to be of such importance for the reward now exceeds that of gold, silver, precious jewels, hay, wood or stubble. It relegates into foreign substance but of a uniqueness of newness that the assurance of its origin is from outside of all you have experienced here in this life! Simply- to have God's renewed mind within you... you are now made able to recognize the out of this world experience of the reward of Spiritual closeness of His presence so that the world grows very dim in The Light of His Glory and Grace! A song of those before me testifying of an already tread path to Him It is why He tells us this

Lk 16:13

13 "No servant can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon."

NKJV

Isa 55:2-3

2 Why do you spend money for what is not bread,

And your wages for what does not satisfy?

Listen carefully to Me, and eat what is good,

And let your soul delight itself in abundance.

3 Incline your ear, and come to Me.

Hear, and your soul shall live;

And I will make an everlasting covenant with you —

The sure mercies of David.

NKJV

Christ taught us in His temptations that there is nothing here on the planet worthy of your attention but if you will but place all of your mind, heart, soul and strength upon the receiving of Him in this truth- He, in His good time, will add to your continuance here for His use.... I am just now coming into this reality and sense Him transferring me into a wind that will go anywhere and anytime with His pleasure and bidding! I don't even care to know any more than His heart is next to my own as He carries me in this pleasure of His purpose for He speaks to me through His Word and I know it is Him for my life disappears and His Word is everything in my heart!

Eph 2:13

13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

NKJV

I desire to lean upon His breast with nothing between.... I am burning in my heart for this intimacy He 'IS' offering and there is nothing I have that I would not give to gain its further entrance into my own!

Can you imagine any scenario where you would willingly choose to leave the Lord and return into a life of sin? I don't know you personally, but if what you say is true, and I don't doubt your sincerity, you seem like someone who will endure to the end. Based on your relationship to Jesus, in your mind can you fathom a true Christian willingly turning back after finding the pearl of great price?

NO! emphatically NO it seems insane in consideration! Sorry I didn't realize your use of the pearl of great price as I probably would have used another but as it is so be it

Can you see them giving up that relationship for a life in the hog pen? Strangely enough, some do just that, so the question is, were they ever really saved? Were they really chosen by God to have eternal life?

That which is born of God cannot be unborn because it was born of Blood that cannot be defiled or made null and ineffective! Judgment of God's things belong to God alone as I and all else that 'IS' His... What glory awaits us to the witness of Him and the Glory due Him -truly worthy 'IS' our God as King of Kings and Lord of Lord to the fullness of The Fathers delight in His Son...

Here is Heb 6:4 in order for this to be an unpardonable sin it would have to be moved in likeness of kind as that which is called so in Matt 12:31 but since it is not and Christ said it to be alone- there in kind... we are left to understand that Christ would have to be crucified again in order to forgive this one also-> bringing it into the absurd for He has sat down as finished in providing for sin bearing... therefore the answer to Heb 6:4 is thus the point of Cross and all sins covered past, present and future (Church age and grace) or the works of earning right to God by Law Or purchase of calvary either ending in damnation of the heart that bear this...

Love, Steven