The possibly False teachings of OSAS and Eternal Security

[Guest shiloh357]

Only the way you and a selected few others define it.

Sorry, but that is not true. OSAS is defined by the majority of the anti-ES crowd as being about man being able to sin while being saved unconditionally. YOU are the one in the minority. You are trying to paint your definition as the majority view. But I have tons of threads on this board and no one in the anti-ES crowd accepts or ascribes to your definition.

OSAS is about permanency of salvation. The rest of the "stuff" about sin is just an add on that need not be there.

Actually it is about the permanence of salvation in terms of it being permanently unconditional regardless of how men live. Again, the focus is not man, not on the promises of God.

Eternal Security has nothing to say about sinful living.

Nor does OSAS.

Oh yes it does. It is touted as the license to sin. It was concocted to communicate that very notion.

Again, shifting the goal posts. If your security is predicated on being a genuine believer, and predicated on continued holiness and godly living, there is nothing to debate. The security is then found in your own assessment of whether you are a genuine believer living in holiness. Still no certainty there .

Wrong. Eternal Security is only for genuine believers whose holy living are the fruit of salvation. It is not for those who either live good lives to earn salvation or live good lives in order to keep salvation.

Eternal Security promotes Godly living. You can only live a truly Godly life if you have assurance. Otherwise, you are nothing but a slave. My assurance is rooted in Scripture (I John 5:11-13) I can live in holiness because I have assurance. I don't have second guess at any point whether or not I am saved. I have been to judge and have been judged righteous. That account is settled and it has been settled once for all. Nothing can change that. I have been transformed and recreated as new creation. That happened one time, once for all.

I am not relying on my assessment of whether or not I am saved. I am relying on the promises of God, and the good works I do are the frut of that.

[~candice~]

I really dislike categorising ALL anti-ES'ers that way. I am anti-ES and I don't define OSAS that way and nor do I believe that a genuine Christian will behave like they have a licence to sin. So let's move on from that debate, OK? It goes nowhere. It's a bit like letting an atheist define what Christianity is.... those that actually hold the affirmative belief get to define what they believe. So you can define ES, but you can't define OSAS, and you certainly can't throw such charges at all anti-ES people.

Right, back on track?

If ES is predicated on being a genuinely saved Christian, the argument is redundant. It's a bit like saying Christians are Christians .

[~candice~]

I also do not believe in some long haired hippy JESUS who loves everyone, my GOD is Holy, a GOD of Judgement and a consuming fire !

Brother... God IS love, and yes He does love the whole world (John 3:16) but that love doesn't correspond to overlooking sin. I think you err to say that Jesus doesn't love everyone.

I have asked quite a few questions on this post but very few have been answered ...

This thread has moved very quickly and I'm sure if you repost your questions they might be seen. Sometimes we genuinely miss posts... there are thousands every day.

[OneLight]

I can remember the first time I heard Once Saved, Always Saved. It was like music to my ears when it was explained that if you follow God, accept the salvation brought by Jesus, and allow Jesus to be Lord of your life, you will make it to heaven. Then when I spoke to someone who did not believe in OSAS, they asked me the same question Shiloh is asking. Can I use my salvation as a ticket to continue to live in sin the rest of my life. The answer was No, because that would be in contradiction to living a life where you love the Lord you God with all your heart, all you soul, all your mind and all you strength.

As I continue to think about this, I am still convinced that if you are a true Christian, you will turn from sin every time, trying to stand steadfast in Him. In this, I agree with Shiloh and against those who feel they can life a life of a dog and still enter into His rest. Yet, I am also of the belief that if I am a true Christian, I will always remain saved.

It all depends on how the term is defined. I believe that is the key to solving this issue here, what is the definition each of us are using? Are they the same, or are we going off on our own definition, causing discord because of this?

I can see why the first time you heard the OSAS doctrine it was like music to your ears because it tickled them.

Forgive me if I just jump in and answer this first point you make....and if I may say so, the conclusion you draw is pretty uncharitable.

If it was me you were addressing, I would respond and tell you that hearing such a teaching was like a breath of fresh air because it struck a chord in my heart that suddenly melted all of

my striving to live a good life as a Believer, it took away something of the heaviness I had struggled under, especially when I sinned a few times, so much so that I wondered if I really

was saved. That statement helped express the enormity of the Saviours love for me as an individual and began to line up with the Word of G-d so much more than I had ever seen in

the past...I could see clearly that my state of salvation was an eternal gift given to me when I believed on Jesus, and that I NEVER had to fear again that I would be back in the state

of sin and unbelief that I knew before I was saved....it was a lovely cleansing word of truth, and far from giving me license to do what I liked, even sinning, was the motivation to try

and follow Jesus with all my heart...and to know that if I fell I had an Advocate with the Father.

I came to understand that when the Word of G-d said I had been 'reborn'...then I had actually been reborn, and nothing could unbirth me.

I came to see that no one could pluck me from my Fathers hand.

I realised that there was no condemnation held over me or put to my account.

I was actually free to rejoice in my salvation in fulness of joy, and to know that G-d loved me and rejoiced over me, because

He saw an individual washed in the Saviours blood, a sheep of the Shepherd.

My ears were not 'tickled' my ears heard, and my spirit rejoiced in G-d my Saviour.

Well forgive me but Christ did not come to bring peace but a sword -Mat10:34 If this doctrine struck a chord in your heart Botz then i would be concerned because your heart is " deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: " and i certainly would not trust it -Jer17:9 I am not saying you are saved or you are not, i am saying this OSAS doctrine does not line up with Scripture and i am not here seeking to "people please" but only to voice what i believe to be the truth. I also do not believe in some long haired hippy JESUS who loves everyone, my GOD is Holy, a GOD of Judgement and a consuming fire ! Its been very interesting to see that some of you people who have been on this site for quite a long time seem to play a school yard type of "in crowd" mentality. I have asked quite a few questions on this post but very few have been answered and for some reason Botz, there seems to be a lack of love to those who are new on here and may not be in your clique. I guess this is how we ended up with so many "denominations" and many in the churches who seek the high places, lead and lord it over others and love the preeminence.

May I ask how you were first saved? By the sounds of it, I would venture to guess that you were saved by the hell and brimstone preaching that brought salvation through fear and not love. I am probably wrong, but without the love of Christ pouring over your sins, which is the blood, there would be no salvation.

As for me, I was at a very young age when I first heard the term, and not grounded in Christ by no means. It was His love toward me that drew me to Him.

To say that you are not here to please is evident, but where will that get you in His body? The truth does not have to be hammered with a fist, but delivered with love and an open hand. On one hand, you are willing to say what you feel despite what anyone thinks, then you turn around and say that you are not treated in love? My friend, you reap what you sow.

You rant that God is a holy and judgmental God, with consuming fire, which is true when it is His will to be so, but tell me, what do you make of this verse?

Matthew 5:44

But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you,

How does this fit into your " I also do not believe in some long haired hippy JESUS who loves everyone" statement?

In His Peace and Love,

Alan

[Guest]

I do agree with you on one thing. You can't have eternal security unless you believe in OSAS. Anything less leaves the possibility that you weren't really saved, even if you went to an alter and accepted Jesus as your savior. It would leave the possibility that some were rejected because their experience at the alter wasn't sincere enough. Of course, you even mentioned a possible false confession, so some could only think they are saved....

I Am Thoroughly Convinced

Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. James 1:17

If It Is Written

For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Matthew 5:18

It Is True

Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever. Psalms 119:160

With Or Without

For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged. Romans 3:3-4

Me

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

~

No Matter How Many Times The Assurance Of God's Word Is Discussed I Think This Examination Is Still Of Great Value

But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy are ye: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled;

But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ. 1 Peter 3:14-16

For New (And Old) Believers Will Often Be Called Out On The Trustworthiness

And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. 1 John 5:1-13

Of The Work Of Christ

By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. Hebrews 10:10

At Calvary

When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost. John 19:30

~

Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

Love, Joe

[Guest]

.... Please show me in Scripture where GOD " LOVES " the world. My Bible says GOD so " LOVED " (past tense) the world -Jn3:16.

Yet He

But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8

Does

I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. Revelation 22:16-17

[~candice~]

I also do not believe in some long haired hippy JESUS who loves everyone, my GOD is Holy, a GOD of Judgement and a consuming fire !

Brother... God IS love, and yes He does love the whole world (John 3:16) but that love doesn't correspond to overlooking sin. I think you err to say that Jesus doesn't love everyone.

I have asked quite a few questions on this post but very few have been answered ...

This thread has moved very quickly and I'm sure if you repost your questions they might be seen. Sometimes we genuinely miss posts... there are thousands every day.

Please show me in Scripture where GOD " LOVES " the world. My Bible says GOD so " LOVED " (past tense) the world -Jn3:16. If you go through your concordance dear sister, you will find no scripture where GOD "loves" except for Pr7:18 & Song7:12 However, you will find approx 25 passages that GOD has "loved" ; for example " Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having " loved ' his own which were in the world, he " loved " them unto the end.-Jn13:1 & " Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath " loved " us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,"-2Thes2:16

How about this.

Jesus' death was supposed to be a sign for us of His great love for us. In fact, it was called the greatest act of love.

John 15

¹³ Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends.

Heb 1

¹ God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, ^2[a]in these last days has spoken to us ^[b]in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the ^[c]world.

It is through the death of Christ that God has chosen to reveal Himself to the world in these last days. It is not loved, past tense, but a sign of His constant love for us.

Where in scripture does it say that God stopped loving the world after the death of Christ?

I think the opposite is said!

In Hosea 3 we read that His love for the sons of Israel continues after their harlotry.

¹ Then the LORD said to me, “Go again, love a ^[a]woman whois loved by her ^[b]husband, yet an adulteress, even as the LORD loves the sons of Israel, though they turn to other gods and love raisin cakes.”

How about this?

Micah 7

¹⁸ Who is a God like You, who pardons iniquity <br style=font-family: 'Charis SIL', charis, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; ">And passes over the rebellious act of the remnant of His^[m]possession? <br style=font-family: 'Charis SIL', charis, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; ">He does not retain His anger forever, <br style="font-family: 'Charis SIL', charis, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; ">Because He delights in ^[n]unchanging love.

Or this?

1 John 4

⁷ Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; andeveryone who loves is ^[a]born of God and knows God. ⁸ The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

[enoob57]

Please show me in Scripture where GOD " LOVES " the world. My Bible says GOD so " LOVED " (past tense) the world -Jn3:16. If you go through your concordance dear sister, you will find no scripture where GOD "loves" except for Pr7:18 & Song7:12 However, you will find approx 25 passages that GOD has "loved" ; for example " Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having " loved ' his own which were in the world, he " loved " them unto the end.-Jn13:1 & " Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath " loved " us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,"-2Thes2:16

The abiding love of Christ as His abiding in The Father's love...

John 15:9-10

9 "As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love. 10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.

NKJV

That love that began in Christ before we were. His will continue into eternity in us...

John 17:26

26 And I have declared to them Your name, and will declare it, that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them."

NKJV

Eph 2:4-8

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

NKJV

Every day His love grows me in Him to His Glory

Zeph 3:17

17 The Lord your God in your midst,

The Mighty One, will save;

He will rejoice over you with gladness,

He will quiet you with His love,

He will rejoice over you with singing."

NKJV

His love is more faithful than that even of a mother her own child as he will never forget us!

Isa 49:15

15 "Can a woman forget her nursing child,

And not have compassion on the son of her womb?

Surely they may forget,

Yet I will not forget you.

NKJV

It cannot be overcome...

Rom 8:39

39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

NKJV

Past, present and future ...

Jer 31:3

3 The Lord has appeared of old to me, saying:

"Yes, I have loved you with an everlasting love;

Therefore with lovingkindness I have drawn you.

NKJV

His Love 'IS' our eternity of being unity in Him

1 John 4:16

16 And we have known and believed the love that God has for us. God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God in him.

NKJV

Our very present of being

1 John 4:17-18

17 Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world. 18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love.

NKJV

I have read that you are a person of works to maintain salvation with God... where in my understanding- it is the witness of His presence within me that I do and desire to do His Will! I am being drawn into a more perfect love in that He will keep that which I commit unto Him so that all that is of value to me is stored in His Word of Promise 'In Him I will loose nothing' ... I am transferring all worth into Him for as this treasure increases so also my heart in Him increases... Love, Steven

[~candice~]

Can you show me one verse where it indicates God has stopped loving sinners?

[~candice~]

You might like to inject a little more grace into your posts.

The bible says "God so loved". No where in that statement does it imply He no longer loves. Where does this idea come from? You cannot imply from "God so loved" that there was a point in time in history where God stopped loving sinners, not without a direct scripture indicating this is the case.

Secondly, about Esau, we know that when God "hates" it is speaking about a loss of election, He loved them less, God does not hate in the way you are implying.