enoob57 Posted December 25, 2011 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,200 Content Per Day: 7.98 Reputation: 21,476 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted December 25, 2011 No Steven, I do not plan to add that to what I said. I can provide plenty of scripture that can support the idea you can lose your salvation, and I can give my own interpretation to shoot down your scriptures so-called proof of unconditional eternal security. I can make arguments for both of these positions as well as full blown Calvanism. I have dealt with people on your side of this argument over and over again. I haven't had any trouble coming up with alternate interpretations. It is just a waste of time. Paul teaches eternal security of the believer.... I just showed it to you! Refute the text I provided not some past history of continued failure to debate Scriptures properly. Contextualizing Scripture brings one to the only conclusion that eternal security is foundation of God's Son's Work. Love, Steven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michae Posted December 25, 2011 Group: Members Followers: 1 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 62 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/25/2011 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/19/1958 Share Posted December 25, 2011 Christ is the life and salvation of every believer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michae Posted December 25, 2011 Group: Members Followers: 1 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 62 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/25/2011 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/19/1958 Share Posted December 25, 2011 Gal. 2:20 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michae Posted December 26, 2011 Group: Members Followers: 1 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 62 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/25/2011 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/19/1958 Share Posted December 26, 2011 There is something about "the knowledge of good and evil" that keeps men (human beings) afraid of God. It keeps them from being able to accept God at His word. We use scriptures that are not allowed to pass thru the cross and call them the gospel. Men are mostly left to themselves today to try to make since out of the writen word. Example is all the diff understanding that differ so much even those that have a good sound undetstanding are baffled at the simplicity of the truth of God's writen word. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floatingaxe Posted December 26, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 9,613 Content Per Day: 1.45 Reputation: 656 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/11/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/31/1952 Share Posted December 26, 2011 There is something about "the knowledge of good and evil" that keeps men (human beings) afraid of God. It keeps them from being able to accept God at His word. We use scriptures that are not allowed to pass thru the cross and call them the gospel. Men are mostly left to themselves today to try to make since out of the writen word. Example is all the diff understanding that differ so much even those that have a good sound undetstanding are baffled at the simplicity of the truth of God's writen word. That is all down to the fact that many people read the word with their mind--carnally, and lean on their own understanding, when it is a living, breathing supernatural book that feeds the spirit and all truth must be spiritually discerned. Unless one heeds the Spirit of God when reading it---and that includes unbelievers, one will never come into the knowledge of God. Proverbs 3:5 Lean on, trust in, and be confident in the Lord with all your heart and mind and do not rely on your own insight or understanding. As Christians, we have a responsibility to lean on Holy Spirit for right understanding of the word. Far too many Christians don't. 2 Timothy 3:15 And how from your childhood you have had a knowledge of and been acquainted with the sacred Writings, which are able to instruct you and give you the understanding for salvation which comes through faith in Christ Jesus [through the leaning of the entire human personality on God in Christ Jesus in absolute trust and confidence in His power, wisdom, and goodness]. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michae Posted December 27, 2011 Group: Members Followers: 1 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 62 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/25/2011 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/19/1958 Share Posted December 27, 2011 There is something about "the knowledge of good and evil" that keeps men (human beings) afraid of God. It keeps them from being able to accept God at His word. We use scriptures that are not allowed to pass thru the cross and call them the gospel. Men are mostly left to themselves today to try to make since out of the writen word. Example is all the diff understanding that differ so much even those that have a good sound undetstanding are baffled at the simplicity of the truth of God's writen word. That is all down to the fact that many people read the word with their mind--carnally, and lean on their own understanding, when it is a living, breathing supernatural book that feeds the spirit and all truth must be spiritually discerned. Unless one heeds the Spirit of God when reading it---and that includes unbelievers, one will never come into the knowledge of God. Proverbs 3:5 Lean on, trust in, and be confident in the Lord with all your heart and mind and do not rely on your own insight or understanding. As Christians, we have a responsibility to lean on Holy Spirit for right understanding of the word. Far too many Christians don't. 2 Timothy 3:15 And how from your childhood you have had a knowledge of and been acquainted with the sacred Writings, which are able to instruct you and give you the understanding for salvation which comes through faith in Christ Jesus [through the leaning of the entire human personality on God in Christ Jesus in absolute trust and confidence in His power, wisdom, and goodness]. Yes I agree, as I was reading your post I was thinking about the gospel, I wonder how much that is preached and taught today would really qualify for Pauls glorious gospel that he referrs to as his own personal gospel given to him by Jesus Himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Butero Posted December 27, 2011 Share Posted December 27, 2011 There is something about "the knowledge of good and evil" that keeps men (human beings) afraid of God. It keeps them from being able to accept God at His word. We use scriptures that are not allowed to pass thru the cross and call them the gospel. Men are mostly left to themselves today to try to make since out of the writen word. Example is all the diff understanding that differ so much even those that have a good sound undetstanding are baffled at the simplicity of the truth of God's writen word. That is all down to the fact that many people read the word with their mind--carnally, and lean on their own understanding, when it is a living, breathing supernatural book that feeds the spirit and all truth must be spiritually discerned. Unless one heeds the Spirit of God when reading it---and that includes unbelievers, one will never come into the knowledge of God. Proverbs 3:5 Lean on, trust in, and be confident in the Lord with all your heart and mind and do not rely on your own insight or understanding. As Christians, we have a responsibility to lean on Holy Spirit for right understanding of the word. Far too many Christians don't. 2 Timothy 3:15 And how from your childhood you have had a knowledge of and been acquainted with the sacred Writings, which are able to instruct you and give you the understanding for salvation which comes through faith in Christ Jesus [through the leaning of the entire human personality on God in Christ Jesus in absolute trust and confidence in His power, wisdom, and goodness]. Yes I agree, as I was reading your post I was thinking about the gospel, I wonder how much that is preached and taught today would really qualify for Pauls glorious gospel that he referrs to as his own personal gospel given to him by Jesus Himself. The only way you will get that is to simply post the scriptures as written, with no running commentary. Once you add opinions into the mix, it is suddenly Paul's doctrine plus ours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted December 27, 2011 Share Posted December 27, 2011 I am writing this from the perspective of belief in predestination and election. That is, I am coming from the standpoint of God choosing who will be saved and who will be lost, who will be his children, and who will not? I think that position fits the best. If I was going to dispute this as proving eternal security, I would simply say that when we accepted Christ, he did indeed justify us. In that state, it would be of no use to condemn such a person, as they were saved by God's grace. I would further say that while others can't take away our salvation, that doesn't mean we can't chose to walk away of our own free will, or do as a dog returning to his own vomit, go back into a life of sin. I would say that God did save this person, and he was fully justified, but that original blood atonment won't cover future wilful sins, and I would then turn to Hebrews 10:28, which tells us, that if we sin wilfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins. I would dispute those who say this is talking about those who rejected Jesus after hearing the message of salvation. I would dispute those who say all sins are wilful, and say they most certainly are not. I would turn to the Old Testament and compare them to presumptuous sins. I would point out that scripture says the end of someone who knew the truth and later turned back was worse than if they were never saved. It is not that hard to do. It comes down to interpretation. This is just a quick response without taking the time to give it a lot of thought. I could bring in all kinds of scriptures to challenge unconditional eternal security, including the one about names being blotted out of the Book of Life in Revelation, and after people turned to idolatry in the days of Moses, and God said he would blot their names out of his book. These debates never end, because all sides have differen't interpretations of the same scriptures, and both sides emphasize differen't scriptures. One might point out that no man can pluck us out of God's hands, and another would point out that doesn't stop you from walking out of his hand. LOL, so you are picking and choosing which parts of a Calvinism you will accept? It appears you have created a Calvinistic/Arminian hybrid form of theology that is at best, internally inconsistent with itself. Calvinism teaches UNCONDITIONAL election, not simply, "election." That means that God, in His sovereignty, and for reasons known only to Him, chooses some to be saved while passing over others. Calvinism teaches what you call "unconditional eternal security" in that God only calls those who will be saved, and that the call is irresistable meaning that the saved person has no personal choice. They chosen by God cannont resist His grace. Furthermore, Calvinism teaches that those who are unconditionally, God's elect are forever saved because God's choice cannot be rescinded. They cannot resist the grace of God, and therefore cannot be either rejected by God, fall out of Salvation or even walk away. They have no freewill to reject God's grace in the Calvinistic view. Furthermore, the Bible doesn't say that God creates people for the purpose of demonstrating His power. That is a misreading of Romans 9. God raised Pharoah up to show His power through Pharoah, but it does not say Pharoah was born for that purpose. Being raised up for a purpose is not the same as being born for a purpose. Those are two entirely different concepts. What God did was essentially allow Pharoah's own hardness of heart, pride and power to be his undoing. God incited Pharoah's pride and when Pharoah acted against Israel bringing to bear the full weight of his military might, God responded by crushing Pharoah once and for all to prove that He alone was God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Butero Posted December 27, 2011 Share Posted December 27, 2011 I am writing this from the perspective of belief in predestination and election. That is, I am coming from the standpoint of God choosing who will be saved and who will be lost, who will be his children, and who will not? I think that position fits the best. If I was going to dispute this as proving eternal security, I would simply say that when we accepted Christ, he did indeed justify us. In that state, it would be of no use to condemn such a person, as they were saved by God's grace. I would further say that while others can't take away our salvation, that doesn't mean we can't chose to walk away of our own free will, or do as a dog returning to his own vomit, go back into a life of sin. I would say that God did save this person, and he was fully justified, but that original blood atonment won't cover future wilful sins, and I would then turn to Hebrews 10:28, which tells us, that if we sin wilfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins. I would dispute those who say this is talking about those who rejected Jesus after hearing the message of salvation. I would dispute those who say all sins are wilful, and say they most certainly are not. I would turn to the Old Testament and compare them to presumptuous sins. I would point out that scripture says the end of someone who knew the truth and later turned back was worse than if they were never saved. It is not that hard to do. It comes down to interpretation. This is just a quick response without taking the time to give it a lot of thought. I could bring in all kinds of scriptures to challenge unconditional eternal security, including the one about names being blotted out of the Book of Life in Revelation, and after people turned to idolatry in the days of Moses, and God said he would blot their names out of his book. These debates never end, because all sides have differen't interpretations of the same scriptures, and both sides emphasize differen't scriptures. One might point out that no man can pluck us out of God's hands, and another would point out that doesn't stop you from walking out of his hand. LOL, so you are picking and choosing which parts of a Calvinism you will accept? It appears you have created a Calvinistic/Arminian hybrid form of theology that is at best, internally inconsistent with itself. Calvinism teaches UNCONDITIONAL election, not simply, "election." That means that God, in His sovereignty, and for reasons known only to Him, chooses some to be saved while passing over others. Calvinism teaches what you call "unconditional eternal security" in that God only calls those who will be saved, and that the call is irresistable meaning that the saved person has no personal choice. They chosen by God cannont resist His grace. Furthermore, Calvinism teaches that those who are unconditionally, God's elect are forever saved because God's choice cannot be rescinded. They cannot resist the grace of God, and therefore cannot be either rejected by God, fall out of Salvation or even walk away. They have no freewill to reject God's grace in the Calvinistic view. Furthermore, the Bible doesn't say that God creates people for the purpose of demonstrating His power. That is a misreading of Romans 9. God raised Pharoah up to show His power through Pharoah, but it does not say Pharoah was born for that purpose. Being raised up for a purpose is not the same as being born for a purpose. Those are two entirely different concepts. What God did was essentially allow Pharoah's own hardness of heart, pride and power to be his undoing. God incited Pharoah's pride and when Pharoah acted against Israel bringing to bear the full weight of his military might, God responded by crushing Pharoah once and for all to prove that He alone was God. You misunderstood what I was doing Shiloh. I was showing how you can take multiple scriptures to defend Calvainism, OSAS and the idea you can lose your salvation, depending on how you interpret things. My view is that God created us with free will, but knowing fully what we would choose to do. He knew our beginning and our ending. In other words, if he creates one man, Moses, and knows he will be a God fearing man that will lead Israel out of bondage, and he also creates Pharoah, knowing he will oppose Moses, even if they technically had free will, they really didn't, because the outcome was known at the time of their creation. As for salvation, I believe God knew if you would be saved or lost before you were created in the womb. Just as God formed Jeremiah in the womb, knowing he would be his prophet, he also formed Judas Iscariot in the womb, knowing he would betray Jesus. He made them the way they were, as a potter forms the clay. Only God know our final outcome, therefore, there is no such thing as absolute security. If you turn and fall away at the end, you really didn't belong to Jesus to begin with, though you may have thought you did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michae Posted December 27, 2011 Group: Members Followers: 1 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 62 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/25/2011 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/19/1958 Share Posted December 27, 2011 How do you become unborn, we have been birthed by the Father in spirit, with Christin us, is that still a mystery to some. Salvation is the life of another in us, Gal 2:20, salvation is Christ in the believer. Amazed we still feel like there is something we can do to perfect what our Father has done in us, could be the mind has not been renewed to the new creation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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