Matthitjah Posted December 27, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 1,285 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 17,917 Content Per Day: 2.27 Reputation: 355 Days Won: 19 Joined: 10/01/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted December 27, 2011 I sincerely am only puzzled by a few things in the Holy Bible. Sure a few consistency issues on eyewitness events, but those are fairly simple to conclude as different vantage points etc. But, How am I to answer a young person that asks me How our perfect God created all things, and His angels were also created by him; now to reference that I am being asked how Lucifer could even become filled with pride, thus rooting evil? I think about this particular question and really don't have a ready reply. I have withstood the ready replies for why horrible things happen to wonderful Christians, and why we even have a loving God that can allow for so much suffering. Many have issue with those tough subjects. I also have to dig deeply, but can resolve those. So, How could Lucifer decide that He was going to want to be God? God had to have knowledge that this was going to happen, and could have had an immediate antedote. EVen one step ahead of that, He could have given each Angel the impossible nature to rebel, which you would almost conceive would be God's desire. Anyone have scriptural exegetics to this? Even some good theological reasoning would be helpful. Appreciate it. Since it has puzzled another, it has also created that in myself. Grace to you, I would ask the child if he/she has ever had the sincere desire to tell a lie or to actually be naughty. Of course the answer is going to be yes. Then ask the child if he/she can postulate from hat answer what happened to satan. As for your question regarding why God didn't make the Angels perfect subservient creatures. I would ask why he didn't make you like that. Peace, Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lauri Posted December 27, 2011 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 25 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 2 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/24/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted December 27, 2011 I sincerely am only puzzled by a few things in the Holy Bible. Sure a few consistency issues on eyewitness events, but those are fairly simple to conclude as different vantage points etc. But, How am I to answer a young person that asks me How our perfect God created all things, and His angels were also created by him; now to reference that I am being asked how Lucifer could even become filled with pride, thus rooting evil? I think about this particular question and really don't have a ready reply. I have withstood the ready replies for why horrible things happen to wonderful Christians, and why we even have a loving God that can allow for so much suffering. Many have issue with those tough subjects. I also have to dig deeply, but can resolve those. So, How could Lucifer decide that He was going to want to be God? God had to have knowledge that this was going to happen, and could have had an immediate antedote. EVen one step ahead of that, He could have given each Angel the impossible nature to rebel, which you would almost conceive would be God's desire. Anyone have scriptural exegetics to this? Even some good theological reasoning would be helpful. Appreciate it. Since it has puzzled another, it has also created that in myself. I also have been asked this question by young people. Sin is a mystery. Why, when you were in an heavenly place, close to God and Jesus, your every need fulfilled, surrounded by joy and happiness, would you seek to sin against God. It does not make sense, that is why iniquity is called a mystery. There really is no explaining it. But because it happened sin can be explained. 2 Thessalonians 2:7 KJV (7) For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. Although the preceding verse in Ezekiel is directed at the king of Tyrus, many scholars agree that this is a reference to Lucifer based on the text. Ezekiel 28:13-16 KJV (13) Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. (14) Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. (15) Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. (16) By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. His sin started with pride over the gifts God had given him, as though they were not received, forgetting they came from God. Ezekiel 28:17 KJV (17) Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. His pride progressed to coveting the worship that belongs to God alone. Isaiah 14:12-15 KJV (12) How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! (13) For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: (14) I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. (15) Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. This is why Lucifer became Satan and was cast out of heaven. Revelation 12:9 KJV (9) And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. We can take comfort in the fact that after God makes all things new, sin will not rise up a second time. Nahum 1:7-9 KJV (7) The LORD is good, a strong hold in the day of trouble; and he knoweth them that trust in him. (8) But with an overrunning flood he will make an utter end of the place thereof, and darkness shall pursue his enemies. (9) What do ye imagine against the LORD? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time. Revelation 21:5-8 KJV (5) And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. (6) And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. (7) He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. (8) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floatingaxe Posted December 27, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 9,613 Content Per Day: 1.45 Reputation: 656 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/11/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/31/1952 Share Posted December 27, 2011 ...1/3 of the angel populace (millions!) succumbed to believing a lie and chose to follow after Lucifer and his deranged mindset, as the majority of these heavenly creatures are so familiar with and in awe of God that they could not even consider gong against such a glorious God. I suspect the number is more in the billions or trillions. I agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bold Believer Posted December 28, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 121 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,931 Content Per Day: 0.35 Reputation: 126 Days Won: 8 Joined: 01/22/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/13/1955 Share Posted December 28, 2011 If Satan "fell" on his own, that would make him greater than God. If God created Satan to be the adversary (hence his name) then it stands to reason that God had His eternal purpose in doing so. He hasn't seen fit to tell us what that purpose is. The idea that Satan made some sort of choice to be what he is is ludicrous on its face. How can the clay say to the potter: "I will do whatever I like." The obvious answer: It can't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthitjah Posted December 28, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 1,285 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 17,917 Content Per Day: 2.27 Reputation: 355 Days Won: 19 Joined: 10/01/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted December 28, 2011 If Satan "fell" on his own, that would make him greater than God. If God created Satan to be the adversary (hence his name) then it stands to reason that God had His eternal purpose in doing so. He hasn't seen fit to tell us what that purpose is. The idea that Satan made some sort of choice to be what he is is ludicrous on its face. How can the clay say to the potter: "I will do whatever I like." The obvious answer: It can't. Your answer is heretical. Jas 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. However, satan is a liar, he has been one from the beginning of the world; Joh 8:44 You are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. Peace, Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bold Believer Posted December 28, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 121 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,931 Content Per Day: 0.35 Reputation: 126 Days Won: 8 Joined: 01/22/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/13/1955 Share Posted December 28, 2011 My answer makes a LOT more sense than any I've heard here so far. Prove that Satan could just do whatever he wanted on his own, and I will believe you. BUT...if Satan could just go do whatever he wanted to do, then THAT MAKES HIM MORE POWERFUL THAN GOD. That would be heresy, not believing that God created Satan as the adversary. The real question (to me at least) is WHY did God create an adversary? Obviously, He had his reasons, but WE are not privy to them. We know from Scripture that some were in the Book of Life from BEFORE the foundation of the Earth. We know from Scripture that some were created to be vessels of wrath. Why then is it so difficult to believe that God created an adversary? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floatingaxe Posted December 28, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 9,613 Content Per Day: 1.45 Reputation: 656 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/11/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/31/1952 Share Posted December 28, 2011 My answer makes a LOT more sense than any I've heard here so far. Prove that Satan could just do whatever he wanted on his own, and I will believe you. BUT...if Satan could just go do whatever he wanted to do, then THAT MAKES HIM MORE POWERFUL THAN GOD. That would be heresy, not believing that God created Satan as the adversary. We are given free will. Does that make us more powerful than God, too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD Posted December 28, 2011 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 0 Topic Count: 909 Topics Per Day: 0.19 Content Count: 9,659 Content Per Day: 2.02 Reputation: 5,839 Days Won: 9 Joined: 04/07/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted December 28, 2011 I sincerely am only puzzled by a few things in the Holy Bible. Sure a few consistency issues on eyewitness events, but those are fairly simple to conclude as different vantage points etc. But, How am I to answer a young person that asks me How our perfect God created all things, and His angels were also created by him; now to reference that I am being asked how Lucifer could even become filled with pride, thus rooting evil? I think about this particular question and really don't have a ready reply. I have withstood the ready replies for why horrible things happen to wonderful Christians, and why we even have a loving God that can allow for so much suffering. Many have issue with those tough subjects. I also have to dig deeply, but can resolve those. So, How could Lucifer decide that He was going to want to be God? God had to have knowledge that this was going to happen, and could have had an immediate antedote. EVen one step ahead of that, He could have given each Angel the impossible nature to rebel, which you would almost conceive would be God's desire. Anyone have scriptural exegetics to this? Even some good theological reasoning would be helpful. Appreciate it. Since it has puzzled another, it has also created that in myself. Answer: Free will to choose not to follow God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthitjah Posted December 28, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 1,285 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 17,917 Content Per Day: 2.27 Reputation: 355 Days Won: 19 Joined: 10/01/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted December 28, 2011 My answer makes a LOT more sense than any I've heard here so far. Prove that Satan could just do whatever he wanted on his own, and I will believe you. BUT...if Satan could just go do whatever he wanted to do, then THAT MAKES HIM MORE POWERFUL THAN GOD. That would be heresy, not believing that God created Satan as the adversary. The real question (to me at least) is WHY did God create an adversary? Obviously, He had his reasons, but WE are not privy to them. We know from Scripture that some were in the Book of Life from BEFORE the foundation of the Earth. We know from Scripture that some were created to be vessels of wrath. Why then is it so difficult to believe that God created an adversary? Please provide scriputral evidence for your claim that God is the father of lies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peri Posted December 28, 2011 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 29 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 2 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/15/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted December 28, 2011 Hey now! I thought that my answer made sense! =) The question, as I understood it, is why God would choose to create a being who has the potential to sin. While there are a variety of theories -- some with more Biblical support than others, the Bible does not tell us exactly why God makes all of the decisions that He does. We know that He is good and that He has a plan and that it's all about His glory, but we really don't have the specifics. Which you kind of said too. Anyway, I think there is a difference between creating something with free will (the ability to sin) and creating a sin/lie in and of itself. Of course, God created Satan with the ability to do all that he does, but I really think that's different than God choosing for Satan to be his adversary. God is sovereign, but he doesn't choose evil or endorse it. I think Job has a really good example of that... showing that Satan is exercising free will. He's acting within the abilities that God gave him, but outside of the righteousness that God demands. Being sovereign is not the same as being a puppeteer. My answer makes a LOT more sense than any I've heard here so far. Prove that Satan could just do whatever he wanted on his own, and I will believe you. BUT...if Satan could just go do whatever he wanted to do, then THAT MAKES HIM MORE POWERFUL THAN GOD. That would be heresy, not believing that God created Satan as the adversary. The real question (to me at least) is WHY did God create an adversary? Obviously, He had his reasons, but WE are not privy to them. We know from Scripture that some were in the Book of Life from BEFORE the foundation of the Earth. We know from Scripture that some were created to be vessels of wrath. Why then is it so difficult to believe that God created an adversary? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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