If a child were to ask me this question

[DF_McLeod]

Really when it comes down to it, regardless of His reasons for allowing Lucifer to do what he wishes, it's about salvation. God allowed Satan to deceive Eve in the Garden. He allowed him to taint Adam and Eve in such a way that they could learn a valuable lesson, and with them every generation after learn that lesson too.

If God had not allowed Satan to deceive Eve, if she had not eaten the fruit from the tree of knowledge and given some to Adam, they would have continued on as immortals oblivious to pain or hardship or sacrifice and more importantly they would never have sought out the Father for salvation. They simply would not have had any reason to need him after that but when they ate the fruit they gained knowledge. Knowledge of being naked, knowledge of right and wrong, etc..

This brings up another important issue. If Satan rebelled and took a third of the angels with him (those that became demons), why didn't God destroy them right then and there? The answer is simple and one a friend of mine has been giving me for a while now: If God had destroyed Satan and the third of the angels that fell, what kind of God would he be? Why would the two thirds of angels that remained stay faithful to a God that would simply snuff out His creations like that? They wouldn't. They'd have fallen as well and I am certain God would have wiped us all out entirely long ago if that was the case.

The point is that regardless of what reason God created Lucifer and let him rebel and to this day cause trouble is because He needed him. He needed Satan as a tool to exact his beautiful and perfect plan. As someone mentioned, the story of Job is a great one to read up on. It really shows how little power Satan has and that he is NOT above God but a tool for Him to use to make a point, to teach a lesson.

Edited December 28, 2011 by DF_McLeod

[Matthitjah]

Really when it comes down to it, regardless of His reasons for allowing Lucifer to do what he wishes, it's about salvation. God allowed Satan to deceive Eve in the Garden. He allowed him to taint Adam and Eve in such a way that they could learn a valuable lesson, and with them every generation after learn that lesson too.

If God had not allowed Satan to deceive Eve, if she had not eaten the fruit from the tree of knowledge and given some to Adam, they would have continued on as immortals oblivious to pain or hardship or sacrifice and more importantly they would never have sought out the Father for salvation. They simply would not have had any reason to need him after that but when they ate the fruit they gained knowledge. Knowledge of being naked, knowledge of right and wrong, etc..

This brings up another important issue. If Satan rebelled and took a third of the angels with him (those that became demons), why didn't God destroy them right then and there? The answer is simple and one a friend of mine has been giving me for a while now: If God had destroyed Satan and the third of the angels that fell, what kind of God would he be? Why would the two thirds of angels that remained stay faithful to a God that would simply snuff out His creations like that? They wouldn't. They'd have fallen as well and I am certain God would have wiped us all out entirely long ago if that was the case.

The point is that regardless of what reason God created Lucifer and let him rebel and to this day cause trouble is because He needed him. He needed Satan as a tool to exact his beautiful and perfect plan. As someone mentioned, the story of Job is a great one to read up on. It really shows how little power Satan has and that he is NOT above God but a tool for Him to use to make a point, to teach a lesson.

Sorry friend,

God does not need satan. That is as heretical as Bold Believers testimony. He uses satans bad testimony for Good. He is Sovereign over it.

Every knee will bend and every head will bow.

[enoob57]

My answer makes a LOT more sense than any I've heard here so far. Prove that Satan could just do whatever he wanted on his own, and I will believe you. BUT...if Satan could just go do whatever he wanted to do, then THAT MAKES HIM MORE POWERFUL THAN GOD. That would be heresy, not believing that God created Satan as the adversary.

The real question (to me at least) is WHY did God create an adversary? Obviously, He had his reasons, but WE are not privy to them.

We know from Scripture that some were in the Book of Life from BEFORE the foundation of the Earth.

We know from Scripture that some were created to be vessels of wrath.

Why then is it so difficult to believe that God created an adversary?

It is not with our reasoning do we accomplish anything in knowing God- but - yielding to His Reasoning implanted by The Holy Spirit and verified by The Scripture...

Because your answer is against Scripture!

Eze 28:15-16

5 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created,Till iniquity was found in you.

16 "By the abundance of your trading you became filled with violence within, and you sinned; Therefore I cast you as a profane thing out of the mountain of God; and I destroyed you, O covering cherub, from the midst of the fiery stones.

NKJV

God 'IS' NOT the author of sin... that which manipulates that which is already brought into being is already under the authority of HE Who has brought it into being! The moment you reason from your mind God is the reason for satan and sin you have violated what the Son has taught us in His N.T. as well

Jas 3:11-12

11 Does a spring send forth fresh water and bitter from the same opening? 12 Can a fig tree, my brethren, bear olives, or a grapevine bear figs? Thus no spring yields both salt water and fresh.

NKJV

Ro 1:20

20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,

NKJV

2 Co 6:14-18

14 Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness? 15 And what accord has Christ with Belial? Or what part has a believer with an unbeliever? 16 And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you are the temple of the living God. As God has said:

"I will dwell in them and walk among them.I will be their God,And they shall be My people."

17 Therefore

"Come out from among them and be separate, says the Lord.Do not touch what is unclean, and I will receive you." 18 'I will be a Father to you, and you shall be My sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty."

NKJV

So the evaluation of satan in that he was created to be as he is... is in direct violation of what God has taught us in His Word.

Love, Steven

[enoob57]

If Satan "fell" on his own, that would make him greater than God. If God created Satan to be the adversary (hence his name) then it stands to reason that God had His eternal purpose in doing so. He hasn't seen fit to tell us what that purpose is.

The idea that Satan made some sort of choice to be what he is is ludicrous on its face. How can the clay say to the potter: "I will do whatever I like." The obvious answer: It can't.

In the study of Lucifer you will find He was created like all else to bring glory to God The Creator! His position and abilities were so impressive that by the abundance of his abilities to glorify God, he stole, what belonged to God and put it upon himself! These were of such greatness that ¹/₃ of the angels followed after his lies of his- that he was something to follow! His name adversary is given because he believes his own lies and opposes God... a foolish thought that God could be opposed is to look at the fruit of this world now in the throws of his power- what is seen is a desperate need to turn from his foolishness back to God!

God's Way, Truth and Life is so very clear to His Children by what is seen in those who are not...

What I do not understand is that God has told us He 'IS' and there 'IS' no other than Him (to the created this must be accepted by faith for there is only His Witness of such that is said) and that He fills all eternities... what exactly does the created or that which has beginning think that by opposition to God they shall ever have resolve in that opposition but simply an eternal separation from God and all that belongs to God which is good...

Love, Steven

[Bold Believer]

Really when it comes down to it, regardless of His reasons for allowing Lucifer to do what he wishes, it's about salvation. God allowed Satan to deceive Eve in the Garden. He allowed him to taint Adam and Eve in such a way that they could learn a valuable lesson, and with them every generation after learn that lesson too.

If God had not allowed Satan to deceive Eve, if she had not eaten the fruit from the tree of knowledge and given some to Adam, they would have continued on as immortals oblivious to pain or hardship or sacrifice and more importantly they would never have sought out the Father for salvation. They simply would not have had any reason to need him after that but when they ate the fruit they gained knowledge. Knowledge of being naked, knowledge of right and wrong, etc..

This brings up another important issue. If Satan rebelled and took a third of the angels with him (those that became demons), why didn't God destroy them right then and there?The answer is simple and one a friend of mine has been giving me for a while now: If God had destroyed Satan and the third of the angels that fell, what kind of God would he be? Why would the two thirds of angels that remained stay faithful to a God that would simply snuff out His creations like that? They wouldn't. They'd have fallen as well and I am certain God would have wiped us all out entirely long ago if that was the case.

The point is that regardless of what reason God created Lucifer and let him rebel and to this day cause trouble is because He needed him. He needed Satan as a tool to exact his beautiful and perfect plan. As someone mentioned, the story of Job is a great one to read up on. It really shows how little power Satan has and that he is NOT above God but a tool for Him to use to make a point, to teach a lesson.

Actually, God DID destroy them then and there, just as He did to Adam. Did Adam not die when he took and ate the fruit? Of course he did. And when God ordered Michael to throw Satan and his angels out of heaven, it was done at the proper TIME. You see Revelation 12 tells us that the war didn't start until Jesus was born. God waited until Christ was come into the world according to the prophecies. Genesis 3 foretold Satan that his head would be crushed, Revelation 12 told him that his time was short and Revelation 19 saw him cast into the bottomless pit. Revelation 20 will put paid to that vessel of wrath for good. Satan never stood a snowball's chance. He was destined to be doomed FROM THE BEGINNING.

Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

[Bold Believer]

If Satan "fell" on his own, that would make him greater than God. If God created Satan to be the adversary (hence his name) then it stands to reason that God had His eternal purpose in doing so. He hasn't seen fit to tell us what that purpose is.

The idea that Satan made some sort of choice to be what he is is ludicrous on its face. How can the clay say to the potter: "I will do whatever I like." The obvious answer: It can't.

In the study of Lucifer you will find He was created like all else to bring glory to God The Creator! His position and abilities were so impressive that by the abundance of his abilities to glorify God, he stole, what belonged to God and put it upon himself! These were of such greatness that ¹/₃ of the angels followed after his lies of his- that he was something to follow! His name adversary is given because he believes his own lies and opposes God... a foolish thought that God could be opposed is to look at the fruit of this world now in the throws of his power- what is seen is a desperate need to turn from his foolishness back to God!

God's Way, Truth and Life is so very clear to His Children by what is seen in those who are not...

What I do not understand is that God has told us He 'IS' and there 'IS' no other than Him (to the created this must be accepted by faith for there is only His Witness of such that is said) and that He fills all eternities... what exactly does the created or that which has beginning think that by opposition to God they shall ever have resolve in that opposition but simply an eternal separation from God and all that belongs to God which is good...

Love, Steven

IF you believe that Satan is Lucifer, then perhaps so. I am not 100% convinced that they are one and the same. If Satan can steal from God, then Satan is more powerful than God. I doubt any of us believe that. Since all was good from the creation, Satan could also not have simply come up with the idea to become the adversary. That concept had to originate from somewhere.

I am convinced from Romans 9 and from Genesis 3 and Matthew 25 that the way Satan brings glory to God is to BE the adversary, just what he was created to be. He is unable to repent. He is fulfilling the destiny his creator gave him. The Lake of Fire was a part of the creation. It was not created as an afterthought, post-rebellion. It was created during the 6 days, and it was specifically prepared for the devil and his angels. Remember, angels means messengers, so it was prepared not only for angelic beings but those human beings who are the devil's messengers as well. A hard pill to swallow, yes, but that doesn't make it untrue.

Ezekiel 28 is a pretty weak proof-text, Steven. Verse 15 tells us that unrighteousness was found in the King of Tyre (assumed by most to be Satan). The word for found is matsa whichs means to be discovered. Now if it was discovered, the question becomes: How did it GET THERE? Evil is not organic. It's not something that just floats around in the air. The only answer is: It was put there in the beginning by the Creator, to be discovered at the appointed time. Satan gives God glory by being just what He was created to be. The Devil. And when God is done with him, he will cast him into Gehenna. Satan is a vessel of wrath (Romans 9) who was eternally destined for Gehenna when his purpose is accomplished.

[enoob57]

IF you believe that Satan is Lucifer, then perhaps so. I am not 100% convinced that they are one and the same.

Isa 14:12 there is only one being who has made this claim and has been in fact cast from Heaven

Lk 10:18

18 And He said to them, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

NKJV

Isa 14:13-14 there has only one who has knowledge of this place by being there... so that such a boast might be made

Eze 28:14-15

14 "You were the anointed cherub who covers; I established you; You were on the holy mountain of God;

You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.

15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, Till iniquity was found in you.

NKJV

Isa 14:13-14 there was satan created great in Heaven so his will be the greatest condemnation

Isa 14:15

15 Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol, To the lowest depths of the Pit.

NKJV

Since all was good from the creation, Satan could also not have simply come up with the idea to become the adversary. That concept had to originate from somewhere.

Eze 28:16

16 "By the abundance of your trading you became filled with violence within, and you sinned;

Therefore I cast you as a profane thing out of the mountain of God; and I destroyed you, O covering cherub,

From the midst of the fiery stones.

NKJV

it is in this way ... He was involved in God's Glory and witnesses the results of angels in God's presence (their glorying in God's Glory) and then seeing his own addition to that glory given to God and turned from his created purpose of that addition to turning it to himself...

Jn 8:44

44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.

NKJV

If Satan can steal from God, then Satan is more powerful than God. I doubt any of us believe that.

I am convinced from Romans 9 and from Genesis 3 and Matthew 25 that the way Satan brings glory to God is to BE the adversary, just what he was created to be. He is unable to repent. He is fulfilling the destiny his creator gave him. The Lake of Fire was a part of the creation. It was not created as an afterthought, post-rebellion. It was created during the 6 days, and it was specifically prepared for the devil and his angels. Remember, angels means messengers, so it was prepared not only for angelic beings but those human beings who are the devil's messengers as well. A hard pill to swallow, yes, but that doesn't make it untrue.

That is just that- NO GLORY CAN BE STOLEN FROM GOD!!!!- no man has gone to far into Sovereignty and Free Will and not fallen into error! It's best to say what God says and to wait upon the increase of ourselves, when sight of Him allows, to understand these apparent depths or heights that exceed us all!

All that is required of us now is to preach Christ Jesus and Him crucified and risen again unto newness of life for all who come to Him in this belief to gain Life In Him eternally... Love, Steven

[Bold Believer]

IF you believe that Satan is Lucifer, then perhaps so. I am not 100% convinced that they are one and the same.

Isa 14:12 there is only one being who has made this claim and has been in fact cast from Heaven

Lk 10:18

18 And He said to them, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

NKJV

Isa 14:13-14 there has only one who has knowledge of this place by being there... so that such a boast might be made

Eze 28:14-15

14 "You were the anointed cherub who covers; I established you; You were on the holy mountain of God;

You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.

15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, Till iniquity was found in you.

NKJV

Isa 14:13-14 there was satan created great in Heaven so his will be the greatest condemnation

Isa 14:15

15 Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol, To the lowest depths of the Pit.

NKJV

Since all was good from the creation, Satan could also not have simply come up with the idea to become the adversary. That concept had to originate from somewhere.

Eze 28:16

16 "By the abundance of your trading you became filled with violence within, and you sinned;

Therefore I cast you as a profane thing out of the mountain of God; and I destroyed you, O covering cherub,

From the midst of the fiery stones.

NKJV

it is in this way ... He was involved in God's Glory and witnesses the results of angels in God's presence (their glorying in God's Glory) and then seeing his own addition to that glory given to God and turned from his created purpose of that addition to turning it to himself...

Jn 8:44

44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.

NKJV

If Satan can steal from God, then Satan is more powerful than God. I doubt any of us believe that.

I am convinced from Romans 9 and from Genesis 3 and Matthew 25 that the way Satan brings glory to God is to BE the adversary, just what he was created to be. He is unable to repent. He is fulfilling the destiny his creator gave him. The Lake of Fire was a part of the creation. It was not created as an afterthought, post-rebellion. It was created during the 6 days, and it was specifically prepared for the devil and his angels. Remember, angels means messengers, so it was prepared not only for angelic beings but those human beings who are the devil's messengers as well. A hard pill to swallow, yes, but that doesn't make it untrue.

That is just that- NO GLORY CAN BE STOLEN FROM GOD!!!!- no man has gone to far into Sovereignty and Free Will and not fallen into error! It's best to say what God says and to wait upon the increase of ourselves, when sight of Him allows, to understand these apparent depths or heights that exceed us all!

All that is required of us now is to preach Christ Jesus and Him crucified and risen again unto newness of life for all who come to Him in this belief to gain Life In Him eternally... Love, Steven

You haven't answered the matsa question yet from Ezekiel 28:15. If iniquity was found in Satan (assuming that the King of Tyre is a metaphor for Satan as most do) how did it get there? My understanding is that it was there from the beginning, placed there by an all knowing Creator Christ for purposes that bring glory to the Father. Your understanding says (basically) it just happened.

The very verse you (and Mattijah as well) use to heap an undeserved condemnation on me for my understanding actually does more to strengthen my position. It is written of Satan that he was "a murderer from the beginning"...THE ARCHE. The same word used by John to describe the point of the creation. So then was a murderer from THE BEGINNING. Which is what I'm stating: HE WAS CREATED A MURDERER, A LIAR, AN ADVERSARY. It's his JOB. He's a tool for God's glory. He was created FOR DISHONOR, Romans 9:21. Some vessels were created for honor and others for DISHONOR, but they ALL SERVE A PURPOSE IN THE PLAN OF GOD. When God is done with them, He discards them. That is His right; He is the potter.

And yes, Jesus saw Satan fall from heaven like lightning: It happened when Christ came into the world (Revelation 12), but until that point, God had Satan doing his will in whatever ways he (God) desired (Job 1 for instance). Satan was never an independant, roaming about doing whatever he bloody well pleased; everything that Satan has ever done has accomplished (whether immediately or ultimately) the will of GOD. I'm sorry you can't understand what I'm getting at, but it's IN Scripture. I'm sorry that the idea of a sovereign God scares you, but sovereign He is.

[enoob57]

You haven't answered the matsa question yet from Ezekiel 28:15. If iniquity was found in Satan (assuming that the King of Tyre is a metaphor for Satan as most do) how did it get there? My understanding is that it was there from the beginning, placed there by an all knowing Creator Christ for purposes that bring glory to the Father. Your understanding says (basically) it just happened.

I already explained that in what I wrote ... it will do no better the second writing!

The very verse you (and Mattijah as well) use to heap an undeserved condemnation on me for my understanding actually does more to strengthen my position. It is written of Satan that he was "a murderer from the beginning"...THE ARCHE. The same word used by John to describe the point of the creation. So then was a murderer from THE BEGINNING. Which is what I'm stating: HE WAS CREATED A MURDERER, A LIAR, AN ADVERSARY. It's his JOB. He's a tool for God's glory. He was created FOR DISHONOR, Romans 9:21. Some vessels were created for honor and others for DISHONOR, but they ALL SERVE A PURPOSE IN THE PLAN OF GOD. When God is done with them, He discards them. That is His right; He is the potter.

beginning is simply a word for the start of something... Creation yes had a beginning, sin yes had a beginning, us yes had a beginning... God said He created Him perfect in all His ways (God's beginning for him) and satan chose other than God's created path for him (his beginning of sin)!

And yes, Jesus saw Satan fall from heaven like lightning: It happened when Christ came into the world (Revelation 12), but until that point, God had Satan doing his will in whatever ways he (God) desired (Job 1 for instance). Satan was never an independant, roaming about doing whatever he bloody well pleased; everything that Satan has ever done has accomplished (whether immediately or ultimately) the will of GOD. I'm sorry you can't understand what I'm getting at, but it's IN Scripture. I'm sorry that the idea of a sovereign God scares you, but sovereign He is.

In direct conflict with Scripture where it states otherwise-

1 Pe 5:8-11

8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour. 9 Resist him, steadfast in the faith, knowing that the same sufferings are experienced by your brotherhood in the world. 10 But may the God of all grace, who called us to His eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after you have suffered a while, perfect, establish, strengthen, and settle you. 11 To Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.

NKJV

Love, Steven

[Floatingaxe]

We mustn't let the idea of the sovereignty of God carry us away to flights of fancy. When man was created, God let him have dominion over the earth, and Adam gave away that sovereignty to Satan. Jesus has ruined Satan by defeating death, and we who are His people are manning the helm for Christ, and engaging in skirmishes with Satan who continually tries to kill, steal and destroy what Jesus has won us. We continue to put him down until the Day Jesus comes to chain him.