Sinners Saved by Grace

[He giveth more grace]

Sin: What We Do or What We Are?

"The Bible tells us in plain terms that we are not sinners because we sin, but we sin because we are sinners. And I don’t think we can overstate what a fundamental difference this is! Source This defines who we were in our old life before coming to Christ.

Who we were were childdren of Adam, that person was crucified with Christ, his death is our death, because when we are saved God idenifies us with Christ on the cross.

Who we are are children of the second Adam.

The first (which died in Christ) was earthy, the second heavenly.

I have a new idenity!

“Sinners” Who Are Forgiven or “Saints” Who Sin?

Begin read after the line break.

[mizzdy]

Actually, that is not the case.

I know of no born again who, in understanding that the Word of God says they are sinners, then focus on sin.

They are focused on Jesus who saved them, gave them eternal life and a new nature which has more power than the old nature.

Some never do focus on it. There are some indeed who never look back and just keep going straight. But that does not mean that there are not those who do. Or, that it cannot happen. Those are the people Paul is addressing, the people who were struggling with the two natures.

I in no way mean to say that the born again believer is not able to sin, nor do I pretend that they are free from the temptation to sin. However, I will say to my dying day that the born again believer has been set free from the servitude of sin. Before a person is born again they have no choice but to sin, they are enslaved by it.

I know of quite a few people who focus on sin. But I think that we may be thinking about different definitions of this.

The analogy is like this;

Archery is a wonderful exercise of self-control, focus, and skillful training of ones body. When an archer draws and releases an arrow, there is much more to it than pulling back a string and then letting it go.

The master of archery is one who practices it every day. And not just every day, but throughout the day. It is something that you make apart of yourself. When an archer gets ready to shoot, the bow and arrow become an extension of who he is.

However, just like with anything else, you will never find an archer who even after spending day after day - year after year - will hit the mark exactly in the same spot he was aiming each time he shoots. In fact, archery is always based on the moment by moment time that you are shooting. And because no two moments in time and space are exactly alike, there is no way to ever prepare for anything that might happen.

So, the archer draws, anchors, picks a spot(mark), and releases. What happens? More often than not he misses the mark. But what comes next is what sets the amateurs apart from the true archers. The amateur looks at the spot he did hit and judges from it where he should aim next. But in doing so, he sets himself up for a unending cycle of never hitting the mark. Because he is not expecting to hit the mark he sets for the next shot, he is expecting to hit the mark he was looking at the first time. However, because no two moments in time are the same, he has ruled out any wind variation, humidity changes, changes in arrow weight, changes in draw length, changes in the anchor point, etc. The list goes on and on.

Contrast that with the master archer. He misses the mark on his first shot. What does he do? He forgets about that shot. He concentrates harder on the mark. He may very well miss again, but each time he shoots he concentrates harder and harder. He is able to do that because he never looses sight of the original mark.

The amateur cannot concentrate hard on the mark because the mark he looks too is always changing based upon where he hit last. Oh sure, he can see the original mark, but it does not mean as much to him as it does the master archer.

This is the Christian walk illustrated. There are many 'immature' Christians around because they do not keep Christ as their one and only mark in focus. They walk along, they sin, they look at the sin and say "I don't want to do that". So they look at that sin, examine it, see what they did 'wrong', and then try to avoid it in the future.

The fallacy in this is they use their judgement in trying to figure out what they did wrong. There are so many things that it could be. And even worse, a lot of the time they will look to others to see what direction they should go in to keep it from happening again.

But the mature Christian looks at the sin he commits and says, Jesus. Then turns from it(repentance) and never looks back. That is what repentance is, it is a turning away from. And if you turn away from something, tell me, how can you still see it?

Keep one focus, and one focus only. Jesus the Christ...His righteousness imputed onto you. The more this is your focus, the more times you will hit closer to the mark. But when one associates themselves with being a sinner, then they are associating themselves with the natural man and not the spiritual. These two are contrary to one another and cannot be focused on together. Its one or the other. And like it or not, you have to choose between the two.

Nice analogy. Torah at its root means to take aim or shoot, we aim to walk in His instructions because it is our teacher but just like the archer we never really hit the same place but as we grow we learn how to shoot or we are learning to walk with Him more closely. Sinning is to miss the mark.

shalom,

Mizz

[NathanH]

Your analogy parallels the definition of sin - missing the mark.

Well thats what I was aiming for...

But I think that your missing one point in it. That "identifying" yourself as a sinner you are automatically saying that you "must" sin, and do not have the ability to overcome sin.

In Biblical definitions a sinner is one who has not repented of their sins. And if you then take the Biblical definition of repentance, you see it is a turning away from; more specifically a 180 degree turn from. If, therefore, you have repented of your sins, then you have turned away from them. But if you turned away from them, what did you turn to?

You turned to righteousness. When one repents, they are taking(by faith) the free gift of righteousness and walking in that direction. You cannot walk in both directions at the same time. They are parallel to each other, but they go in two directly opposite directions.

But that is not to say that one does not ever sin again. They can and do. But when you sin, you did so because you turned away from the direction you were going.

Very simply, there are mountains upon mountains of passages that plainly state the difference between the two and how they cannot, in any way, be one in the same person. It is impossible to be righteous and a sinner at the same time.

Luk 15:7 Just so, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.

Psa 1:5-6 Therefore the wicked will not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous; for the LORD knows the way of the righteous, but the way of the wicked will perish.

Pro 13:21-22 Disaster pursues sinners, but the righteous are rewarded with good. A good man leaves an inheritance to his children's children, but the sinner's wealth is laid up for the righteous.

Mat 9:13 Go and learn what this means, 'I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.' For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners."

Jhn 9:31 We know that God does not listen to sinners, but if anyone is a worshiper of God and does his will, God listens to him.

These are just a few of the many contrasting passages in the Bible. To say that they are not exact opposites of each other is like calling good evil and evil good. Evil cannot be good, nor can good be evil. They are exact opposites. So too are the righteous and the sinners.

We were sinners who were saved by grace. Now we are righteous who are kept in faith.

[NathanH]

It seems you are absolutely correct. I had never parsed it before.

Could you explain Gal 2:17?

"If while we seek to be justified in Christ, it becomes evident that we ourselves are sinners, does that mean Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not!"

I would love too. I am glad you asked. Lets give a little more for context.

Gal 2:15-21 We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified. But if, in our endeavor to be justified in Christ, we too were found to be sinners, is Christ then a servant of sin? Certainly not! For if I rebuild what I tore down, I prove myself to be a transgressor. For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.

I think it might be best for the Bible to take it to the next level. Maybe this will help;

The entire chapter of Romans is dedicated to this explanation. I will draw a few excerpts from it, but I encourage the reading of it in its entirety.

Rom 6:1-2 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?

Rom 6:16-18 Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness.

We have been given the ability to choose between the two as born again believers. We can choose sin, or we can choose righteousness. If we choose sin that does not mean that Christ is right there with us, guiding us to sin. He does not promote sin. What we do when we sin is turn from righteousness and turn to sin.

What Paul was referring to in Galatians was Peter's "sin" in desiring to follow the manners of the law of Moses in front of those who had to yet believe in Christ for their righteousness, but when they were not around he did not do those things according to the way the Jew's felt they needed to be done.

So what Paul was saying was that those Jew's who had not yet turned to faith in Christ, but yet desired to follow Christ in their own methods(by the ritualistic following of Moses law), they would eventually come to the conclusion that they had not turned to righteousness(or had turned from it) and were following that which righteousness cannot be attained from. They would be then found as sinners, not righteous.

Gal 2:17-19 But if, in our endeavor to be justified in Christ, we too were found to be sinners, is Christ then a servant of sin? Certainly not! For if I rebuild what I tore down, I prove myself to be a transgressor. For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God.

Paul clarifies this further in the following chapter;

Gal 3:11 Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for "The righteous shall live by faith."

And then, in chapter 4 of Galatians, Paul makes the very profound and very controversial statement;

Gal 5:4 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.

Tell me, how can one be severed from something if he was not once a part of it? I know this goes into a whole different topic, and I will not go there in this thread. But this is what Paul's point is in chapter 2. One can step away from the free gift of righteousness and turn to the self imposed righteousness that seemingly comes from the keeping of Moses's law. That is what Paul is referring to in Galatians 2:17.

Paul is referring to the one who is righteous, turning from it, and turning back to a life of condemned sin. The man who does this has turned from being righteous to being a sinner. And just because he chooses this does not mean that Christ lead him there. It was done on his own accord. Which is precisely what Christ was telling the churches in His revelation to John;

Rev 2:4-5 But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first. Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent(turn back around), and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.

Rev 3:1-3 "And to the angel of the church in Sardis write: 'The words of him who has the seven spirits of God and the seven stars. "'I know your works. You have the reputation of being alive, but you are dead. Wake up, and strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your works complete in the sight of my God. Remember, then, what you received and heard. Keep it, and repent. If you will not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come against you. Christ comes "against" them because He is not with them. He is not a servant of sin.

Rev 3:15-19 "'I know your works: you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were either cold or hot! So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth. For you say, I am rich, I have prospered, and I need nothing, not realizing that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked. I counsel you to buy from me gold refined by fire, so that you may be rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself and the shame of your nakedness may not be seen, and salve to anoint your eyes, so that you may see. Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline, so be zealous and repent.

This last example is the most disturbing one. Because they "believe" they got it. This is evident from the point that they are not like complete "unbelievers"(cold), but at the same time they do not believe completely(hot). They are "stuck" in the middle. They are between sin and righteousness. They believe themselves to be righteous, but at the same time do not understand that because they still live in sin(are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked) they have turned from Christ(His righteousness imputed, and the power to overcome sin that comes with it) and have turned back to being sinners. They have to repent. They have to make that turn back to Christ.

The Bible draws a distinction between the righteous and the sinner from Genesis to Revelation. Its either one or the other, it cannot be both or else you are like the Laodiceans who are "lukewarm".

[NathanH]

This is the principal 'summed' up.

Rom 6:16 Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?

The "sinner" is one who is a slave to sin.

The "righteous" is the one who is a slave to righteousness.

You cannot be both. You are either one or the other.

[NathanH]

It seems you are absolutely correct. I had never parsed it before.

Could you explain Gal 2:17?

"If while we seek to be justified in Christ, it becomes evident that we ourselves are sinners, does that mean Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not!"

I would love too. I am glad you asked. Lets give a little more for context.

I need the "we are sinners" part explained in light of the "justified in Christ" part, since those in Christ are not sinners.

I'm sorry. But you have to include the word "seek" in order to fully grasp what Paul is laying out. They were "seeking" to be justified in Christ...by their own merits...by the ritualistic observance of the law.

If, while they were "seeking" it in that way, they come to the realization that they are convicted as sinners(which all must do before fully trusting in Christ), then that does not mean that Christ was leading them to try and obtain righteousness by the law, but rather it was their own sinful desire that did it.

[NathanH]

We can "seek" all we want to be justified in Christ, but it is Christ who justifies us in Himself. Repentance is given from God, not something we conjure up in ourselves.

[NathanH]

Rom 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

[He giveth more grace]

Rom 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Hammer meets nail head, bam.