The "Old Testament"

[jasoncran]

so if modern judiasm has a call to the temple for passover and the sanhedrin say bring an unblemish lamb then you wont have a problem?

what about daily obligations ?

There's no temple .

I think modern day Judaism has strayed a long way from it's biblical roots. I have no issue if people today want to participate in the yearly feasts. Let them celebrate. That's all I ever meant.

modern judiasm is attempted to rebuild the temple and end the diaspora. not all of it.

to eleanor. please dont think i know that but if you meant moses and the prophets and read what they do say you would find that the sin definitions are the same.

the law of christ and what is that based on? the first two commandments.

so we grace and saved christians dont need the strength from god to stop sinning? i think you know better then that., the law of christ doesnt make on holy it shows where we fail. what cleanses us? the blood, the law of christ doesnt.one can only do that if one asks christ to change us and waits on him to do that. perfection from man was never asked the law made man humble. the law of christ does the same.

so how do you tell the homosexualy he is a sinner. with the tanach or romans?

in pauls days as romans wasnt canon the tanach did it all.

[jasoncran]

i agree and see why it failed. where i disagree with you is that the law is a burden.

Who is this directed to?

elanor.

many assume that law was too heavy then to be done when they did and do teach very closely to what we do(the jews then and today).

you, candice, are aware of the sages statement on the idea genesis three with the thorns of life and that we can go to the YHWH and ask for help when life is hard. sound familiar? it should its was jesus also said. funny how the torah and jesus often line up.

[jasoncran]

i never said we should be under the law. i agree and see why it failed. where i disagree with you is that the law is a burden.

But that's the Word of God speaking, right?

Gal 4:21-31 - ". . .you that desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? . .these are (allegorically) the two covenants;

the one from the mount Sinai, which genders bondage. . .and corresponds to the present Jerusalem. . .but the Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all (NT believers). . .we are not children of the bondwoman (i.e., in bondage to the law issued at Sinai), but of the free (i.e., not in bondage to the law issued at Sinai).

what part of i dont desire to be under the LAW DONT YOU GET. I MADE IT CLEAR THAT I dont follow kosher laws nor do the shabat?

if you cant figure that out then dont bother with me.

so god didnt change nor transform idol worhshippers then

im talking..

rachab..

naomi

abraham and jacob.

abraham was in land full of idolatry, so why would he then believe on god with some measure of faith then grace? is it not written that abraham believed first then rightuosness was imputed?

so god did also want to do this with isreal but for the most they reject them but the prophets and godly kings didnt they sought him. its not that hard to see that throughout the tanach. i see it all over.

how then if the law was so burdensome did david say i keep the law in my heart so that i might not sin agaisnt thee

[jasoncran]

when paul talks about the law he had to deal with the fact that pharisees added to the law. they did add to the law.

the shabat is easy if one did it right. its the man additions of rules that tarnished it. the pharisees were considered pure at the time and there way of the law is what is paul refered too as he was one of them.

so its a bad thing if the christians of today(and its many do it) take say sunday off and go to church and worship and relax. that is what the shabat was all about. resting and giving thanks to the lord.

where it got hard is how much work was to be done but a little common sense went a long way.

so i guess david and moses and the prophets and myriad of psalmist were so burdened by the law they the didnt know of his mercy and sat aroung complaining of them hard commandments. funny how the writings say the opposite.

what paul also and the acts 15 council was the pharisees version of the law and their view of it(which the sages and the ancient hebrew never ever taught) that the law saved.

in context the YHWH revealed himself by signs then redeemed then then asked them choose the law or death. it was his way of saying here is how you come to me and by faith(yes moses mentioned faith alot in the torah)

he even says circumise the foreskin of your hearts and be ye no more stiffnecked!

the law was to a believing hebrew that was taught that god did those things(its also told when ye children ask tell them of the stories of why god delivered you).they then had to believe that God is and agree to his law.hebrews 13 never lists the law saving those men does it? it says by faith abraham did so and so and by faith joseph believed that isreal would enter the promise land and by faith joshua conquered jericho.

[gdemoss]

I understand the sentiment of the OP and agree with the horror of believing that the Old Testament is not of any use today is tragic but to me it is much like the problem the word 'religion' has today gaining a bad reputation due to all the false religion out there but the bible speaks of pure and undefiled before God religion.

I always go back to what God has said to see what is the right way to address these things.

2Cr 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which [vail] is done away in Christ.

According to God there is an old testament.

Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

There is also a new testament.

2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

The old testament can reveal the new testament to you so not to be considered invalidated or irrelevant.

From the beginning to the end of the bible we find that salvation was always understood as by grace through faith that is justified by works. God came and spoke to his creation. People believed and acted accordingly. God saved his obedient people. Adam and Eve left the Garden of Eden and walked by faith believing that they should be clothed as God provided and waited upon his promise of a coming Savior. Over time the description of the works given by God for us to do has changed but the promise of a Savior never changed but became realized. As the OP stated, the testament was basically modified rather than done away with.

Gary

I have been studying along those collated lines of thought! I find it unique how the O.T. is dealing with man in his unregenerate aspects and in the fullness of time Christ came to regenerate! It seems that we have the O.T. to reveal the battle we face against our unredeemed flesh and world we live in as New Born Spiritual Life with God while still here.... a manual so to speak on the how to of overcoming our flesh to glorify our Lord. I am fascinated with the study of it in this way! What started me thinking in these lines of thought was this passage

1 Cor 10:6-13

6 Now these things became our examples, to the intent that we should not lust after evil things as they also lusted. 7 And do not become idolaters as were some of them. As it is written, "The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play." 8 Nor let us commit sexual immorality, as some of them did, and in one day twenty-three thousand fell; 9 nor let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed by serpents; 10 nor complain, as some of them also complained, and were destroyed by the destroyer. 11 Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.

12 Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall. 13 No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it.

NKJV

Like Being born again as Israel delivered from Egypt and passing through the water to receive the the understanding of God's righteousness by Law and entering the promised land but the land is already inhabited by wicked influence (people)/(our flesh) and must be totally annihilated to assure no temptations of evil in their remaining etc...

Love, Steven

Hello Steven,

God has been taking time to show me that we can find evidence in the Old Testament of people who were led externally by the Holy Spirit. Today we have the convenience of being the temple of God and have his indwelling spirit to guide and teach us and have been shown how to access the holiest of holies within this 'tabernacle' that we walk around in. We are 'one' spirit with God. All of the OT saints who were 'born again' (remember Jesus said that everyone must be born again and expected Nicodemus to know that already) had their hearts circumcised from their flesh through their spirit. Man has always had a spirit. A mans spirit that is led by God through his Holy Spirit, whether externally or internally, is one that has been born from above. The law was meant to bring the Israelites to this place (faith of Christ), having been taught by the Holy Spirit externally. There were choice people whom God did pour his spirit out upon but they were merely to be the leaders and teachers of those who would be Gods people. But Israel failed to receive the law spiritually. They followed it in a carnal manner at best, abusing the ability that God gave them to receive an atonement though the offering of bulls and goats but God desired mercy and not sacrifice. Abraham was born again. He through the spirit mortified the deeds of the flesh by following the Word of God even when his flesh begged him not too. Everyone who is mentioned in chapter 11 of the book of Hebrews went against the logic of the human mind to follow the Word of God which has always been given by the Holy Spirit. A man can only do these things through his own spirit when the heart becomes circumcised from the flesh. The divine nature goes completely against human sinful nature. Jesus shocked people because he showed up saying things like 'give to all that ask of you' and 'do good to those that hate you'. These concepts were foreign to these people but were readily able to be studied in the Old Testament through people like David who was a man after Gods own heart. Nothing has changed except we now have seen the righteousness of God manifest in the likeness of sinful flesh and God has poured out his Spirit upon us that we might be taught directly by him internally rather than externally. To whom much is given, much is expected.

I pray that our Father will continue the most excellent work that he has begun in you and keep you blameless until the day of Jesus Christ by revelation of the righteousness of him who has called you to glory and honor that you might be strengthened in the inner man and able to have victory each day over the sin that so easily besets men.

Gary

[jasoncran]

when paul talks about the law he had to deal with the fact that pharisees added to the law. they did add to the law.

the shabat is easy if one did it right. its the man additions of rules that tarnished it. the pharisees were considered pure at the time and there way of the law is what is paul refered too as he was one of them.

so its a bad thing if the christians of today(and its many do it) take say sunday off and go to church and worship and relax. that is what the shabat was all about. resting and giving thanks to the lord.

where it got hard is how much work was to be done but a little common sense went a long way.

so i guess david and moses and the prophets and myriad of psalmist were so burdened by the law they the didnt know of his mercy and sat aroung complaining of them hard commandments. funny how the writings say the opposite.

what paul also and the acts 15 council was the pharisees version of the law and their view of it(which the sages and the ancient hebrew never ever taught) that the law saved.

in context the YHWH revealed himself by signs then redeemed then then asked them choose the law or death. it was his way of saying here is how you come to me and by faith(yes moses mentioned faith alot in the torah)

he even says circumise the foreskin of your hearts and be ye no more stiffnecked!

the law was to a believing hebrew that was taught that god did those things(its also told when ye children ask tell them of the stories of why god delivered you).they then had to believe that God is and agree to his law.hebrews 13 never lists the law saving those men does it? it says by faith abraham did so and so and by faith joseph believed that isreal would enter the promise land and by faith joshua conquered jericho.

It's not real clear to me what your point is here, but does not the Word of God clearly state

that all are cursed by the law (Gal 3:10), according to Dt 27:26, and

it is that curse from which Christ redeemed us (Gal 3:13)?

You don't think that means it was impossible to keep the law?

of course not that was the whole point of the law it made them sages and ancient hebrews lean on christ as he then forgive them. that is what i mean. surely if that wasnt the case no mention of the right"spirit" in joshua and caleb.

now then is grace just sit back and let christ do it all theres no do for a christian in commandments(this is taught these days) why would god ask men to do the impossible? he wouldnt. he knew then they couldnt do it and it was to show the world that he would make the way for the redeemer to come but until then he did mean that they could come to him for forgiveness and he gave them the strength to the do the law. if not why then did abraham believe or the prophets by whose spirit did they see god with?

[~candice~]

I guess I would view the Noahic covenant as not pertaining to salvation, per se.

So I guess I don't view all the covenants as soteriological.

However, the notion of soteriological and non-soteriological prophecies and covenants is totally new to me, since I have seen nothing in the NT didactics that would cause me to look into such a notion.

Hi Eleanor,

Sorry I don't have much time so I'll just address this. I also do not believe that all covenants are soteriological, but there are some who believe all covenants are just the covenant of grace cleverly disguised, as a progressive revelation sort of thing. Hence they believe that because the most revealed form of the covenant of grace is in the NT, they avoid all of the OT. So if you were wondering how my question related to the OP, there ya go.

Candice

So I need to think of them in terms of covenants of grace to decide if I think they are soteriological or not?

Okay, let me try that.

This is so totally new to me.

Okay, I think the Noahic covenant is the only one that I don't see as soteriological, and I may change my mind about that after looking into it more.

So I guess that just leaves all those prophecies, regarding destruction of God's enemies which were accomplished in the OT, which I do not see as soteriological. Unless I change my mind about that after looking into it more.

This is just so new to me.

Don't bother, unless you like learning false theology to know how to spot it. I was just wondering where you stood on the issue because you believe (correct me if I am wrong, I often am) that all the promises of the OT (covenants/prophecies) were fulfilled in Christ.

[jasoncran]

just so you know. its the lord who gave the prophets the withal to do the things in the law. it in the book of numbers when God praised caleb and joshua for having that spirit.

why would godly men risk death for a harsh and cruel god who didnt show them mercy and grace? men like shadrach et all. the prophets, joshua and moses.

just saying..

[jasoncran]

when paul talks about the law he had to deal with the fact that pharisees added to the law. they did add to the law.

the shabat is easy if one did it right. its the man additions of rules that tarnished it. the pharisees were considered pure at the time and there way of the law is what is paul refered too as he was one of them.

so its a bad thing if the christians of today(and its many do it) take say sunday off and go to church and worship and relax. that is what the shabat was all about. resting and giving thanks to the lord.

where it got hard is how much work was to be done but a little common sense went a long way.

so i guess david and moses and the prophets and myriad of psalmist were so burdened by the law they the didnt know of his mercy and sat aroung complaining of them hard commandments. funny how the writings say the opposite.

what paul also and the acts 15 council was the pharisees version of the law and their view of it(which the sages and the ancient hebrew never ever taught) that the law saved.

in context the YHWH revealed himself by signs then redeemed then then asked them choose the law or death. it was his way of saying here is how you come to me and by faith(yes moses mentioned faith alot in the torah)

he even says circumise the foreskin of your hearts and be ye no more stiffnecked!

the law was to a believing hebrew that was taught that god did those things(its also told when ye children ask tell them of the stories of why god delivered you).they then had to believe that God is and agree to his law.hebrews 13 never lists the law saving those men does it? it says by faith abraham did so and so and by faith joseph believed that isreal would enter the promise land and by faith joshua conquered jericho.

It's not real clear to me what your point is here, but does not the Word of God clearly state

that all are cursed by the law (Gal 3:10), according to Dt 27:26, and

it is that curse from which Christ redeemed us (Gal 3:13)?

You don't think that means it was impossible to keep the law?

of course not that was the whole point of the law it made them sages and ancient hebrews lean on christ as he then forgive them. that is what i mean. surely if that wasnt the case no mention of the right"spirit" in joshua and caleb.

now then is grace just sit back and let christ do it all theres no do for a christian in commandments(this is taught these days) why would god ask men to do the impossible? he wouldnt. he knew then they couldnt do it and it was to show the world that he would make the way for the redeemer to come but until then he did mean that they could come to him for forgiveness and he gave them the strength to the do the law. if not why then did abraham believe or the prophets by whose spirit did they see god with?

I think you are saying that it was possible to keep the law.

But it looks like it wasn't possible to keep it well enough to avoid its curse, since all were under its curse (Gal 3:10).

You might like, more than you expect to like, the bolded top part of what I sent you on freedom from the law.

so cursed men wrote the bible? david a man after gods own heart was a cursed man? the point here is that when you did sin you could get forgiveness. if not why then david then repent when he heard from nathan god said thou shall not die thy sin has been forgiven. or isiah say come let us reason though they clothes be crimison red they shall be white as snow?

so there wasnt grace then? no mercy given.

hmm thats not the god i recall in the tanach.that is the dichotomy i disagree. mercy and grace was very much active then. the difference then is how close one could get to the lord and that the law didnt operate inwardly as it does in christ.

[Guest]

The Law Man

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 5:17-19

And The Law

I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. Exodus 20:2-6

Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, Psalms 119:105(a)

Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee. Exodus 20:7-12

and a light unto my path. Psalms 119:105(b)

Thou shalt not kill.

Thou shalt not commit adultery.

Thou shalt not steal.

Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's. Exodus 20:13-17

What's Not To Like?

Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.

But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night. Psalms 1:1-2

~

Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:

The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27

Love, Your Brother Joe