Can Women Lead The Flock?

[Matthitjah]

Something to consider:

Acts 18

24 Now a Jew named Apollos, an Alexandrian by birth, an eloquent man, came to Ephesus ; and he was mighty in the Scriptures. 25 This man had been instructed in the way of the Lord ; and being fervent in spirit, he was speaking and teaching accurately the things concerning Jesus, being acquainted only with the baptism of John ; 26 and he began to speak out boldly in the synagogue. But when Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they took him aside and explained to him the way of God more accurately.

What should be noted here is that Priscilla's, the woman, name is mentioned first. This indicates that she took the prominent role in explaining things.

That doesn't mean she was usurping her husband; it most likely means she was the better teacher. ( Perhaps Aquila was more a doer than a talker? Some men are like that.)

The religious-minded would object to such a relationship and demand the male take on the teaching role, even when he isn't much of a teacher while the woman is. But this isn't what we see here. It is clear they worked together in teaching Apollos, but Priscilla took the dominant role. She can do this while still be submitted to her husband.

Bravisimo!

[Matthitjah]

Acts 16

12 and from there to Philippi, which is a leading city of the district of Macedonia, a Roman colony ; and we were staying in this city for some days. 13 And on the Sabbath day we went outside the gate to a riverside , where we were supposing that there would be a place of prayer ; and we sat down and began speaking to the women who had assembled.

14 A woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening ; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul. 15 And when she and her household had been baptized, she urged us, saying, "If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house and stay." And she prevailed upon us.

40 They went out of the prison and entered the house of Lydia, and when they saw the brethren, they encouraged them and departed.

It would seem the church of Philippi began with women, or at least a woman, in the lead. Certainly later men took their leadership roles; however, Lydia was the one who the Lord used to get things going.

Yes!

Something to consider.

There was a Sociologist who wrote a book as an atheist. I will look up his name later. Regardless, he wanted to know why Christianity spread so quickly throughout the world and in particular in Rome when it first started.

He found that the Roman cities were so densely packed, in fact more densely packed than modern day cities, that they were squalid and breeding grounds for disease. What happened was that when a plague struck, evey one else left but the Christians were pouring in. The other thung that he found was that there were many widows and orphans in these cities as the men were either off in the Roman Legions or dead. The men because of their pagan propensities were keeping other women in other Nations that they were battling in and also visiting prostitutes rampantly. They were also inclined to treat the women like dirt. They would even leave them unsupported and run off with other woman. When plague struck Christians were the relief group pouring into the cities, in spite of the plague, and they were meeting these womens needs, in fact they were getting them Saved because God cared about them when no one else did. These early Roman Churches were full of women and orphans with no men. The men came later but the evangelization happened with the women in large numbers because they were the ones in need.

This Sociologist got saved after he saw real Christianity in action.

By and Large the woman in need were getting Saved and then by and large they were the ones evangelizing others throughout the Roman Empire at a time when Christianity was spreading the fastest.

[Wagonmaster]

There have always been special women in the Bible -

Miriam who saved her baby brother Moses from death when she was just a child;

Deborah, prophetess, judge and military leader;

Huldah who taught at the college in Jerusalem.;

Rahab the prostitute who sheltered the two fugitive Israelis,

The evangelist Philip had four daughters who were prophetesses;

The early Christian sect in Phrygia was led by Montanus and two prophetesses, Priscilla and Maximilla..

And Paul paid glowing tributes to women -

"I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a servant of the church in Cenchrea..she has been a great help to many people, including me..

Greet Priscilla , my fellow worker in Christ Jesus, she risked her life for me.

Greet Mary, who worked very hard for you..

Greet Tryphena and Tryphosa and Persis, those women who work hard in the Lord.

Greet Rufus, chosen in the Lord, and his mother, who has been a mother to me, too.

Greet Julia.." (Romans ch 16)

And he reminds us -

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus" (Galatians 3:28 )

Edited March 19, 2012 by Wagonmaster

[Wagonmaster]

Jesus spent a terrible long night before his death,unable to sleep and racked with loneliness as his disciples fell asleep,

But next day on the cross, as he slipped into death his tired pain-filled eyes saw a host of loyal women who'd stuck with him to the end..

"Jesus cried out with a loud voice, and breathed his last. There were also women looking on from afar, among whom were Mary Magdalene and Salome, who followed him and ministered to him when he was in Galilee, and many other women who came up with him to Jerusalem" (Mark 15:37)

They gave him the last womanly comfort they could by making sure he never died alone..

Some of his disciples ran off in fear of the Romans, but women stuck with him to the end-

[mizzdy]

Acts 16

12 and from there to Philippi, which is a leading city of the district of Macedonia, a Roman colony ; and we were staying in this city for some days. 13 And on the Sabbath day we went outside the gate to a riverside , where we were supposing that there would be a place of prayer ; and we sat down and began speaking to the women who had assembled.

14 A woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening ; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul. 15 And when she and her household had been baptized, she urged us, saying, "If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house and stay." And she prevailed upon us.

40 They went out of the prison and entered the house of Lydia, and when they saw the brethren, they encouraged them and departed.

It would seem the church of Philippi began with women, or at least a woman, in the lead. Certainly later men took their leadership roles; however, Lydia was the one who the Lord used to get things going.

Lydia was in charge of this church! so Paul must be double minded when he wrote woman should 'learn in peace'. Phillipians 4:2 references to two women, Euodia and Syntyche who were in leadership roles. Poor Deborah who was appointed as a judge just didnt know Paul yet to find out how he decided things. First its not about Paul but about what God says, God leads Ruth into an extremely important postition, to teach Naomi about Yahweh then leads her to find the 'kinsmen' redemer. In Romans 16:7 we see Paul extending greetings to a female apostle, Junia.

This short article by a gifted Messianic teacher has a lot to say about this:

It must be noted that the verb authenteō (auqentew) is rendered as “usurp authority” in the KJV, and this can significantly alter our perception of the circumstances in Ephesus that Timothy was facing. While commonly rendered with “I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man” (NASU), 1 Timothy 2:12 in the TNIV has the noticeably different, “I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man.”

A scholastic lexicon like BDAG does define authenteō (auqentew) as “to assume a stance of independent authority, give orders to, dictate to,”[d] followed by a more classical lexicon like LS, having “to have full power over.”[e] AMG actually defines authenteō as being related to the noun “authéntēs [auqenthß]...murderer, absolute master, which is from autos [autoß]...himself, and éntea [entea] (n.f.) arms, armor. A self-appointed killer with one’s own hand, one acting by his own authority or power.”[f] At our disposal are lexical definitions which would support how authority in general terms is not the issue Paul is addressing in 1 Timothy 2:12. The rather negative verb authenteō only appears in one place in the Greek Apostolic Scriptures (and not in the Greek Septuagint either), whereas the noun exousia (exousia) and verb exousiazō (exousiazw) are used throughout the Pauline letters to describe “authority” in general.[g] In the estimation of Philip B. Payne,

“If Paul wanted to convey the meaning of ‘to have authority’ without any negative nuances, it would have been natural for him to use a term such as he did in verse 2 of [1 Timothy 2] en uperoch einai or exousian ecein [Romans 9:21] or exousiazein [1 Corinthians 6:12; 7:4] or one of the many other expressions Paul uses for having, using, or sharing authority.”[h]

link

I agree with this author as well as scriptures its about creating authority, power, putting oneself as 'lord' over the other. Not even male leaders have that over us, a pastor leads the flock, cares for it but does force feed it grapes but allows it to feast on the grass. We often fail to take into account what Paul is actually addressing, woman, pagan gentile woman who have come in to the synagogues and decided to 'upsurp' their husbands, standing up and addressing the teachings instead of waiting, gossiping instead of hearing. Those are the things Paul is speaking against not that woman cannot teach others. I personally have no problems sitting and learning from woman in the pulpit, almost every week we have a woman give part of the talk and boy have I learned a lot from them sometimes more so than the pastors talk. There is an order to all things we see that from creation but to take the stance that woman are not to teach at all is wrong, and on the flip side that all men have authority over all woman is equally as wrong. Saying all that I have a problem with woman as well as men who think they have the truth and force feed it to others also.

Let me ask this question, if a man has less understanding, less knowledge of scriptures should a woman or anyone for that matter listen to him over a woman who has greater understanding/knowledge?

shalom,

Mizz

[AnotherSinner]

Jesus spent a terrible long night before his death,unable to sleep and racked with loneliness as his disciples fell asleep,

But next day on the cross, as he slipped into death his tired pain-filled eyes saw a host of loyal women who'd stuck with him to the end..

"Jesus cried out with a loud voice, and breathed his last. There were also women looking on from afar, among whom were Mary Magdalene and Salome, who followed him and ministered to him when he was in Galilee, and many other women who came up with him to Jerusalem" (Mark 15:37)

They gave him the last womanly comfort they could by making sure he never died alone..

Some of his disciples ran off in fear of the Romans, but women stuck with him to the end-

Women, from what I have seen in scripture tend to take on the roles of motivators...encouragers....as well as nurturers. They lift up fellow brothers and sisters in Christ, stand firm in their faith inspiring others, and support their fallen brothers or sisters in faith. So when Paul speaks of the women being silent in church, think he is trying to say they need to be attentive and be a strong supporting role to the men.

An old saying that comes to mind here for me is:

Behind every good man is a good woman.

[Matthitjah]

Listen,

If you're going to be religiously consistent with your quoting Paul in Timothy stating that a Deacon must be husband to one wife you will have to exclude Paul and even Barnabas because neither were Married. Do you believe that Paul was excluding himself?

He was addressing a pagan practice of Polygamy at Ephesus and likewise he was most likely addressing a pagan practice of Matronistic shouting out in Church. It appears that some women were idle and even felt the need to gossip.

It is likely that Paul was addressing a local situation because he clearly applauds and even lauds other women like Phoebe in Rome.

Ro 16:1

¶ I commend unto you Phebe our sister, who is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea:

That word there for "servant of the church" is Deacon.

Diakonos is the word used. Not Deaconess but Deacon. It's the same word used in 1Tim 3:12.

[Rekrap]

The question was can women lead the flock. According to scripture the answer is plainly no. To try and explain that they can pastor a church is in direct conflict with His Word.

1 Timothy 2

8 I desire therefore that the men pray everywhere, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting; 9 in like manner also, that the women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with propriety and 5moderation, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly clothing, 10 but, which is proper for women professing godliness, with good works. 11 Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. 12 And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. 15 Nevertheless she will be saved in childbearing if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control.

Can women teach in classes and other parts of the church, by all means yes. Priscilla did this as stated above but notice she did it appropriately. She took him to the side and explained one on one. It was common for the men to confront someone they disagreed with openly in the temple.

God has different roles for the different sexes because we are different. One is not less than the other but they are different.

Edited March 19, 2012 by Rekrap

[AnotherSinner]

Listen,

If you're going to be religiously consistent with your quoting Paul in Timothy stating that a Deacon must be husband to one wife you will have to exclude Paul and even Barnabas because neither were Married. Do you believe that Paul was excluding himself?

He was addressing a pagan practice of Polygamy at Ephesus and likewise he was most likely addressing a pagan practice of Matronistic shouting out in Church. It appears that some women were idle and even felt the need to gossip.

It is likely that Paul was addressing a local situation because he clearly applauds and even lauds other women like Phoebe in Rome.

Ro 16:1

¶ I commend unto you Phebe our sister, who is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea:

That word there for "servant of the church" is Deacon.

Diakonos is the word used. Not Deaconess but Deacon. It's the same word used in 1Tim 3:12.

Paul not married? Was he not training to become part of the Sanhedrin before he was converted to faith in Christ? If so....the man was in fact, married. Will do some research just to make sure. From what I had known of Paul he was more or less the equal or working towards being such with a Pharisee or Sadducee type. They were religious leaders of the day. A lot of them were required to be married so as to set a 'holy' or 'godly' example to lead the faithful with.

[Matthitjah]

The question was can women lead the flock. According to scripture the answer is plainly no. To try and explain that they can pastor a church is in direct conflict with His Word.

1 Timothy 2

8 I desire therefore that the men pray everywhere, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting; 9 in like manner also, that the women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with propriety and 5moderation, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly clothing, 10 but, which is proper for women professing godliness, with good works. 11 Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. 12 And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. 15 Nevertheless she will be saved in childbearing if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control.

Can women teach in classes and other parts of the church, by all means yes. Priscilla did this as stated above but notice she did it appropriately. She took him to the side and explained one on one. It was common for the men to confront someone they disagreed with openly in the temple.

God has different roles for the different sexes because we are different. One is not less than the other but they are different.

Can you explain the historical context in which Paul was speaking and addressing in the Church where Timothy was the Deacon?