Saturday or Sunday

[Tyler John]

If, for instance, I find myself in breach of one of the ten, then I know I am not acting out of love! But my response should not be to try harder to keep the commandments, but to seek more of Jesus, his spirit and his love.

I replied: Then you agree that the TEN are still applicable to believers today and that to break the fourth is "not acting out of love". When you include all ten, are you including them as written by Yahweh or the man-made version where the fourth commandment is changed from the seventh day to the first day?

That was a serious question that I hoped you would answer so I could know where you are coming from. Can you answer it now?

And thanks for clarifying about the KJV comment.

Personally, I no longer dedicate one day per week to my God, for every day is holy - as, no doubt, every day is to you. As for working or 'doing no work', I sincerely believe that we must read the whole of scripture within its context and not get too carried away with which day or how many hours there are in a day. I take a day off each week - it is good for me, and Yahweh knew that (though it is not always the same day as I am self-employed and can make my own schedule). On the other hand, I do not keep a sabbath year, nor worry whether my clothes are made of two fabrics, nor banish my wife outside the camp when she has a period. The Pharisees tried to trap Jesus with 'working on the sabbath' and he told them in no uncertain terms what he thought of their method of following laws to the letter instead of interpreting them within the overall context of love and salvation. I tend to accept Jesus's approach!

[Tyler John]

Sorry for the quadruple posts. My computer was cycling as though it was sending the first post, but it didn't register as sent. It just kept cycling. So I did it again with the same results. And again and again. Evidently they went through.

Also, I have to clear my browser data (cookies, etc.) after every use of this forum or else my computer doesn't work correctly. It won't load other web pages. Any way to correct that?

Sorry, no idea!

[Tyler John]

Brothers there will be no sabbaths to keep in heaven.

Isa 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, says Yahweh, so shall your seed and your name remain.

Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, says Yahweh.

The intention of a sabbath is to get man to come away from his labours to rest and to be taught of God through those He has annnointed for such.

Correct. Yahweh wants His people to do that on the seventh day.

The sabbath is for man, and not man for the sabbath. God is not offended by what day is kept, but by its misuse or abuse.

To work on the seventh day is a misuse or abuse of the Sabbath command. It does not please Him to do so.

The sabbaths kept by the Jews were for them as a nation, but are not practical to be kept literally now that the gospel has gone out to all peoples. God knew this would be when He created the world large enough to have time zones.

There are Sabbath keepers all around the world that have no problem keeping the Sabbath holy. Man-made time zones have no effect on the Sabbath which begins and ends at sunset. Yahweh, in His wisdom, did not allow the Sabbath or His Feast Days to be influenced by man’s calendar or method of keeping time. Even though there are evil men who seek to change Yahweh’s times and laws (Dan 7:25), Yahweh’s faithful people will not conform to such manipulation of truth.

Furthermore the work of creation completed on the 6th day cannot be compared to the work of salvation and resurrection completed on the 7th day. The first is always superceeded by the latter. The work of creation is temporal, but the work of redemption is eternal.

The work of salvation was completed on the day Yeshua died which was not the seventh day and the resurrection was completed on the first day, not the seventh day. However, if you are referring to the ultimate completion of those works when all that will be saved are resurrected from the graves unto eternal life, then yes, that will take place on the typical seventh day, the Millenium (6,000 years for man to work and 1,000 years for him to rest).

Christ knew it was not profitable or necessary to insist on the 1st day as a new day of worship, but it is clear that this day became the new focus of believers as they were led by the Holy Spirit to esteem the latter work over the earlier. This is backed up Acts 20:7, the general tenor of the Christ`s teachings, and the high esteem of what became known as the "Lords day" and also called " the queen of days" by 1st and 2nd century christians.

That is the exaltation of the traditions of men over the commands of Yahweh resulting from misunderstanding NT verses concerning events on the “first day of the week”.

But let us not destroy one another for whom Christ died for, on account of days and customs that will perish.

Teaching men about the Sabbath is not destroying them, but encouraging them unto holiness.

Following my previous posts concerning language...

Do you, in your everyday life and work, talk in the same language that you use for discussing doctrinal questions? For instance, would you say to someone,'This is a great incentive! It will encourage us unto higher performance.'? Unto?! I suggest that the common use of translations such as KJV encourage us to use jargonistic language that makes our message to non-believers sound unpalatable and out of date. That is why I would prefer we all cultivate the habit of speaking about Jesus in normal, everyday language. After all, he is with us today, not just in the past. If Jesus were here now, in an Englsih-speaking country, would he speak in Tudor language? I very much doubt it.

[Tyler John]

Brothers there will be no sabbaths to keep in heaven.

Isa 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, says Yahweh, so shall your seed and your name remain.

Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, says Yahweh.

The intention of a sabbath is to get man to come away from his labours to rest and to be taught of God through those He has annnointed for such.

Correct. Yahweh wants His people to do that on the seventh day.

The sabbath is for man, and not man for the sabbath. God is not offended by what day is kept, but by its misuse or abuse.

To work on the seventh day is a misuse or abuse of the Sabbath command. It does not please Him to do so.

The sabbaths kept by the Jews were for them as a nation, but are not practical to be kept literally now that the gospel has gone out to all peoples. God knew this would be when He created the world large enough to have time zones.

There are Sabbath keepers all around the world that have no problem keeping the Sabbath holy. Man-made time zones have no effect on the Sabbath which begins and ends at sunset. Yahweh, in His wisdom, did not allow the Sabbath or His Feast Days to be influenced by man’s calendar or method of keeping time. Even though there are evil men who seek to change Yahweh’s times and laws (Dan 7:25), Yahweh’s faithful people will not conform to such manipulation of truth.

Furthermore the work of creation completed on the 6th day cannot be compared to the work of salvation and resurrection completed on the 7th day. The first is always superceeded by the latter. The work of creation is temporal, but the work of redemption is eternal.

The work of salvation was completed on the day Yeshua died which was not the seventh day and the resurrection was completed on the first day, not the seventh day. However, if you are referring to the ultimate completion of those works when all that will be saved are resurrected from the graves unto eternal life, then yes, that will take place on the typical seventh day, the Millenium (6,000 years for man to work and 1,000 years for him to rest).

Christ knew it was not profitable or necessary to insist on the 1st day as a new day of worship, but it is clear that this day became the new focus of believers as they were led by the Holy Spirit to esteem the latter work over the earlier. This is backed up Acts 20:7, the general tenor of the Christ`s teachings, and the high esteem of what became known as the "Lords day" and also called " the queen of days" by 1st and 2nd century christians.

That is the exaltation of the traditions of men over the commands of Yahweh resulting from misunderstanding NT verses concerning events on the “first day of the week”.

But let us not destroy one another for whom Christ died for, on account of days and customs that will perish.

Teaching men about the Sabbath is not destroying them, but encouraging them unto holiness.

Following my previous posts concerning language...

Do you, in your everyday life and work, talk in the same language that you use for discussing doctrinal questions? For instance, would you say to someone,'This is a great incentive! It will encourage us unto higher performance.'? Unto?! I suggest that the common use of translations such as KJV encourage us to use jargonistic language that makes our message to non-believers sound unpalatable and out of date. That is why I would prefer we all cultivate the habit of speaking about Jesus in normal, everyday language. After all, he is with us today, not just in the past. If Jesus were here now, in an Englsih-speaking country, would he speak in Tudor language? I very much doubt it.

I didn't know "unto" was an archaic word. Doesn't everyone know what that means? I understand your intent and the need to make our message clear to unbelievers, but I am not addressing unbelievers in this forum. Everyone who reads me should fully understand my meaning even though I may quote the KJV. If they don't, they need to learn because many believers still use it. It seems to me that you are "disputing about words" (to use a modern translation) rather than focusing on the issue of the Sabbath. Let's not get off topic.

My point was that it is rarely used in everyday speech, and the problem with using it (and other uncommon expressions) during discussions like this is that we cultivate bad habits. Language that is virtually unique to any particular specialism is jargon, and jargon should always be discouraged! No, I am not 'disputing about words', but about the principles of how we use words that can and do affect people's lives.

Now, I think I am on the subject. The two issues are very much connected, for both have their roots in an unhealthy addiction to past forms - a past form of language and a past form of spiritual requirement. The fact that many believers use the KJV, or any other translation, does not validate it; many believers pray to Mary and saints, but that is no validation of the practice. I am not suggesting that the KJV actually equates with such nonsense, but showing that the argument of mass usage is unhelpful. The issue should be one of quality, not of quantity. Lovely though the KJV may be, it is archaic, much misunderstood (because language has changed over the past 500 years) and less accurate than some more up-to-date translations. Similarly, the 'observance' of a sabbath should be about time, not timekeeping. The rule, like many others, is there to ensure that everyone in ancient Hebrew society had a day of rest and worshipped weekly. The actual day of the week was not laid down, but arrived at by tradition, and Jesus asks us to worship daily. It is often argued that the commandments are timeless, but they are not; my neighbours have no oxen or donkeys. The usual argument is that we should interpret this in the modern context to mean cars and BBQs, but if we are to reinterpret one, then we must be allowed to do so with others that have an equally temporal context.

Jesus summed up the commandments in two simple statements - effectively: love Yahweh with your entire being, and love other people in the same way that you love yourself. Love is the key, not adherence to each individual Hebraic law. It is quite clear what Jesus felt about 'working' on the sabbath - it was unimportant whether one did or not so long as love and justice were maintained. Strict adherehce to individual laws cannot be maintained without breaking other laws. The NT writers made this very clear and we should surely all accept that it is by grace, not lawkeeping, i.e. the 'works' to which Paul refers, that we are saved.

[OneLight]

As I said several times, there are extenuating circumstances when it is acceptable to break the Sabbath or even lie. To save lives from murderers is one reason to lie. To pick a few grains on Sabbath out of hunger is also acceptable, but to do work that doesn’t save health or life or do any such works of righteousness is not permissible. That would include working one’s normal job, playing sports, doing gardening, farm work, yard work, etc. All that can be done on the six work days that Yahweh provided.

You contradict yourself here. I am done with discussing this with you. It seems you move just enough to cover your statements, but not willing to accept that the law was given to prove that we could not keep the law, as you try to do and are accusing others of not following the Lord if they don't. That idea misses the whole picture of what the law was for and why Christ came.

Enjoy your discussions with others.

[JCISGD]

Hi Joco, i see your fully persuaded in your opinion as am I, but the use of scripture does not make proof of doctrine. Paul says we must rightly divide the word of God and study to show ourselves approved.

I think you will agree if we either mishandle the word or have wrong study methods we will have wrong doctrine yet still be quoting scripture, just as the pharisee. Im not saying you are such, but i will say you have not changed my mind by the scriptures you use, and i dont choose to strive with anyone about Gods word.

God bless.

[JCISGD]

Hi Joco, i see your fully persuaded in your opinion as am I, but the use of scripture does not make proof of doctrine. Paul says we must rightly divide the word of God and study to show ourselves approved.

I think you will agree if we either mishandle the word or have wrong study methods we will have wrong doctrine yet still be quoting scripture, just as the pharisee. Im not saying you are such, but i will say you have not changed my mind by the scriptures you use, and i dont choose to strive with anyone about Gods word.

God bless.

I agree. It is not my intention to change anyone's mind, although I hope I will. My desire is to present the issue as I believe the Scriptures teach it. I am merely planting seeds of truth. Another may water them, but Yahweh will bring forth the fruit. I know a man that fought against the Sabbath for seven years, but could no longer resist the leading of the Holy Spirit. If you don't walk in it now, you will in the Kingdom as all flesh will worship Yahweh from one new moon to another and from one Sabbath to another.

Nice to talk with you Joco, i think you are a balanced thinker and want to let truth speak for itself. Agree to disagree then, as i am fully persuaded there will be no need for the sabbath in heaven, having put off corruptible flesh, and putting on the incorruptible we will worship Him moment by moment in spirit and in truth.

What do you make of Isaiahs account of this earth and heavens being rolled up like a scroll and tossed away? do you think Gods new heavens and earth will be a rehash of these or a complete new thing such as eye has not seen or the mind conceieved?

Remember we are told that there will be no sun, as God himself will be our light.

Have you read John Bunnyans account of being taken to heaven in the book "Visions of Heaven and Hell" ? not that it proves anything contrary to what you say, its just a really sobering account of hell, and a snippet of thje joys of heaven.

[OneLight]

As I said several times, there are extenuating circumstances when it is acceptable to break the Sabbath or even lie. To save lives from murderers is one reason to lie. To pick a few grains on Sabbath out of hunger is also acceptable, but to do work that doesn’t save health or life or do any such works of righteousness is not permissible. That would include working one’s normal job, playing sports, doing gardening, farm work, yard work, etc. All that can be done on the six work days that Yahweh provided.

You contradict yourself here. I am done with discussing this with you. It seems you move just enough to cover your statements, but not willing to accept that the law was given to prove that we could not keep the law, as you try to do and are accusing others of not following the Lord if they don't. That idea misses the whole picture of what the law was for and why Christ came.

Enjoy your discussions with others.

Your not going to point out the contradiction or how I moved "just enough"? I believe I have been consistent in all my posts.

Why is that needed? You know what you wrote and everyone can read it.

[gdemoss]

Joco, one of your contradictions is saying that you can break the letter of the law but you must keep the letter of the law. You contradict yourself because you assign errant meanings to the letter of the law versus the spirit of the law. Some have tried to help you understand this but we lack the necessary approach/words to enlighten your understanding.

May God help you understand the difference between the spirit and letter of the law and how these two are contrary to one another just as the spirit and the flesh are.

In Jesus Name,

Gary

[OneLight]

As I said several times, there are extenuating circumstances when it is acceptable to break the Sabbath or even lie. To save lives from murderers is one reason to lie. To pick a few grains on Sabbath out of hunger is also acceptable, but to do work that doesn’t save health or life or do any such works of righteousness is not permissible. That would include working one’s normal job, playing sports, doing gardening, farm work, yard work, etc. All that can be done on the six work days that Yahweh provided.

You contradict yourself here. I am done with discussing this with you. It seems you move just enough to cover your statements, but not willing to accept that the law was given to prove that we could not keep the law, as you try to do and are accusing others of not following the Lord if they don't. That idea misses the whole picture of what the law was for and why Christ came.

Enjoy your discussions with others.

Your not going to point out the contradiction or how I moved "just enough"? I believe I have been consistent in all my posts.

Why is that needed? You know what you wrote and everyone can read it.

It is needed because I don't know what you are seeing as a contradiction and I doubt anyone else does.

If it will help ...

In one exchange, you replied to my question with:

May I inquire as to what difference it makes? When we set aside a day to the Lord, there is no difference. It is to the Lord.

There may be no difference when WE set aside a day to Yahweh, but when YAHWEH sets aside a day for us, that makes a big difference. And when He goes further to tell us to keep that set apart day by not working, that makes a big difference. Feel free to set aside any day you choose, but if you fail to keep holy the day that Yahweh set aside for you, you will not only lose out on the blessings of it, but you will be judged according to your works.

Then you go on to say:

Yeshua did NOT teach us that it is OK to work one’s normal employment on Saturday or to do yard work, or to participate in sports leagues, etc. He simply corrected the legalistic Pharisees who said healing should not be done on the Sabbath and that even the slightest plucking of grain should not be done.

Then you backtracked when asked about the disciples eating on the Sabbath and Christians lying to save lives. Justification is just an excuse. Sin is sin period, and if one is to accept the 4th commandment without excuse, they have to accept every commandment without excuse. There is a difference between the "royal law" and the "law of liberty".

As I said several times, there are extenuating circumstances when it is acceptable to break the Sabbath or even lie. To save lives from murderers is one reason to lie. To pick a few grains on Sabbath out of hunger is also acceptable, but to do work that doesn’t save health or life or do any such works of righteousness is not permissible. That would include working one’s normal job, playing sports, doing gardening, farm work, yard work, etc. All that can be done on the six work days that Yahweh provided.

I could go on, but others have addressed your theology and I don't want to appear as someone pointing fingers. That is not my intention.