Mcgyver Posted February 27, 2013 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 321 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 80 Days Won: 2 Joined: 11/28/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/03/1957 Share Posted February 27, 2013 I'm sorry, but if you answered the question then I did not understand you answer... So I ask again: Could (i.e. was it possible) the Apostles have given absolution and forgiveness on behalf of God to an unrepentant sinner? Would you answer "yes" or "no" to the above query? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mcgyver Posted February 27, 2013 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 321 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 80 Days Won: 2 Joined: 11/28/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/03/1957 Share Posted February 27, 2013 So then, if I understand you correctly, you are saying that the Apostles had the authority to forgive sins against God to whomever they desired...and to retain the sins of whomever they desired. If this is the case...why the conditions of repent, believe, be born again in the first place? If the Apostles could forgive sin on behalf of God, then they could conceivably forgive the vilest sinner apart from any work of the Lord in the heart of said sinner. Conversely, if there was one who was converted yet the Apostles determined to retain a certain sin against him, then that sin would remain with the person. You really don't see a problem with this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldenEagle Posted February 27, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 764 Topics Per Day: 0.18 Content Count: 7,626 Content Per Day: 1.80 Reputation: 1,559 Days Won: 44 Joined: 10/03/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted February 27, 2013 So then, if I understand you correctly, you are saying that the Apostles had the authority to forgive sins against God to whomever they desired...and to retain the sins of whomever they desired. If this is the case...why the conditions of repent, believe, be born again in the first place? If the Apostles could forgive sin on behalf of God, then they could conceivably forgive the vilest sinner apart from any work of the Lord in the heart of said sinner. Conversely, if there was one who was converted yet the Apostles determined to retain a certain sin against him, then that sin would remain with the person. You really don't see a problem with this? In all the other scriptures that speaks of forgiveness, Jesus always told His disciples to forgive the sins of others. It is ONLY the Apostles that He specifically gave this instruction: Whoever sins you forgive will be forgiven and whoever sins you do not forgive will not be forgiven. This is a very odd command because in all the others, Christ ALWAYS told His disciples to FORGIVE. He never said NOT to forgive. It is only the Apostles who was told that whoever sins they do not forgive, they will not be forgiven. You don't find it a bit odd that it was only the Apostles He gave permission NOT to forgive sins?? It is not the Apostle who forgives or retains forgiveness. It is actually the Holy Spirit in them who does that.....the same Holy Spirit that Christ breathed on them. And only God can forgive the vilest of all sinners.......like the Apostle Paul who persecuted Christians. So Selene... I'm sorry, but if you answered the question then I did not understand you answer... So I ask again: Could (i.e. was it possible) the Apostles have given absolution and forgiveness on behalf of God to an unrepentant sinner? Would you answer "yes" or "no" to the above query? Is that a yes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLight Posted February 27, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.23 Reputation: 9,762 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted February 27, 2013 So then, if I understand you correctly, you are saying that the Apostles had the authority to forgive sins against God to whomever they desired...and to retain the sins of whomever they desired. If this is the case...why the conditions of repent, believe, be born again in the first place? If the Apostles could forgive sin on behalf of God, then they could conceivably forgive the vilest sinner apart from any work of the Lord in the heart of said sinner. Conversely, if there was one who was converted yet the Apostles determined to retain a certain sin against him, then that sin would remain with the person. You really don't see a problem with this? In all the other scriptures that speaks of forgiveness, Jesus always told His disciples to forgive the sins of others. It is ONLY the Apostles that He specifically gave this instruction: Whoever sins you forgive will be forgiven and whoever sins you do not forgive will not be forgiven. This is a very odd command because in all the others, Christ ALWAYS told His disciples to FORGIVE. He never said NOT to forgive. It is only the Apostles who was told that whoever sins they do not forgive, they will not be forgiven. You don't find it a bit odd that it was only the Apostles He gave permission NOT to forgive sins?? It is not the Apostle who forgives or retains forgiveness. It is actually the Holy Spirit in them who does that.....the same Holy Spirit that Christ breathed on them. And only God can forgive the vilest of all sinners.......like the Apostle Paul who persecuted Christians. I need to ask if you believe the Holy Spirit who is in us today is different than the Holy Spirit who was in the Apostles then? If you believe He is the same, than why do you believe that He will not forgive those whom we forgive, since He is the same Holy Spirit and we also have been told to forgive those who sin against us? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mcgyver Posted February 27, 2013 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 321 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 80 Days Won: 2 Joined: 11/28/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/03/1957 Share Posted February 27, 2013 It is not the Apostle who forgives or retains forgiveness. It is actually the Holy Spirit in them who does that.....the same Holy Spirit that Christ breathed on them. And only God can forgive the vilest of all sinners.......like the Apostle Paul who persecuted Christians. Here then is the conundrum that must be faced if you are correct... You have stated that the Apostles had the authority to forgive, yet here you say that only God can forgive. You have also stated that the Apostles had the authority to retain sins...yet the word testifies to the fact that all sin and blasphemy (save one) will be forgiven men. Also, the ministry of the Holy Spirit is not forgiveness... Acts 5:29-32 says: But Peter and the other apostles answered and said: “We ought to obey God rather than men. The God of our fathers raised up Jesus whom you murdered by hanging on a tree. Him God has exalted to His right hand to be Prince and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins. And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him.” It is Christ and not the Holy Spirit that gives forgiveness of sins according to the above passage... How do you explain all this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mcgyver Posted February 27, 2013 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 321 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 80 Days Won: 2 Joined: 11/28/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/03/1957 Share Posted February 27, 2013 It is Christ and not the Holy Spirit that gives forgiveness of sins according to the above passage... How do you explain all this? The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are the same and one God. I'm sorry, but that is outside of orthodox Christian theology: The Father is not the Son, The Son is not the Holy Spirit, The Holy Spirit is not the Father...Rather, God has expressed Himself as 3 persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit; each with a different ministry yet of one essence and indivisibly one God. So once again, it is the Ministry of Jesus Christ to provide forgiveness...or is Acts 5 wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLight Posted February 27, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.23 Reputation: 9,762 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted February 27, 2013 I need to ask if you believe the Holy Spirit who is in us today is different than the Holy Spirit who was in the Apostles then? If you believe He is the same, than why do you believe that He will not forgive those whom we forgive, since He is the same Holy Spirit and we also have been told to forgive those who sin against us? Where in my post did I say that the Holy Spirit will NOT forgive sins?? I said that Christ stated to the Apostles: Whoever sins you forgive will be forgiven and whoever sins you do not forgive will not be forgiven. That biblical verse is found in John 20:22-23. You said the following: This is what Christ said to His Apostles and ONLY to His Apostles. Do you believe what Christ said? JOhn 20:22-23 And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven." You stated in the above that Jesus said this only to the apostles, and nobody else, implying that only the Apostles could forgive sins, but then again, you backtracked when you said later that it was the Holy Spirit who forgives sins. Again, if Jesus said this only to the Apostles, which is it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mcgyver Posted February 27, 2013 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 321 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 80 Days Won: 2 Joined: 11/28/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/03/1957 Share Posted February 27, 2013 I need to ask if you believe the Holy Spirit who is in us today is different than the Holy Spirit who was in the Apostles then? If you believe He is the same, than why do you believe that He will not forgive those whom we forgive, since He is the same Holy Spirit and we also have been told to forgive those who sin against us? Where in my post did I say that the Holy Spirit will NOT forgive sins?? I said that Christ stated to the Apostles: Whoever sins you forgive will be forgiven and whoever sins you do not forgive will not be forgiven. That biblical verse is found in John 20:22-23. I wanted to comment on this briefly, for I believe your exegesis is faulty...Let me explain. Jesus said in Matthew 12:31: “Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. Mark 3:28-29 echos this: “Assuredly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they may utter; but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation” If what you assert is true, then in fact the Apostles have been elevated to a higher position than Christ. Setting aside the blasphemy against the Spirit...ALL sin/EVERY sin will be forgiven according to Jesus... But yet in your theological argument the Apostles could retain sin(s) against a person, which means that not all nor every sin will be forgiven, because the Apostles could retain sin. That is the conundrum that you IMO really can not work around... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jayyycuuup Posted February 27, 2013 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 68 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,384 Content Per Day: 0.37 Reputation: 155 Days Won: 1 Joined: 01/20/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/22/1996 Share Posted February 27, 2013 I am quite surprised to see this thread still going! Not sure if anyone has brought up this scripture- if so, is worth bringing up again Hebrews 7:27 "Who needs not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLight Posted February 27, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.23 Reputation: 9,762 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted February 27, 2013 I need to ask if you believe the Holy Spirit who is in us today is different than the Holy Spirit who was in the Apostles then? If you believe He is the same, than why do you believe that He will not forgive those whom we forgive, since He is the same Holy Spirit and we also have been told to forgive those who sin against us? Where in my post did I say that the Holy Spirit will NOT forgive sins?? I said that Christ stated to the Apostles: Whoever sins you forgive will be forgiven and whoever sins you do not forgive will not be forgiven. That biblical verse is found in John 20:22-23. You said the following: This is what Christ said to His Apostles and ONLY to His Apostles. Do you believe what Christ said? JOhn 20:22-23 And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven." You stated in the above that Jesus said this only to the apostles, and nobody else, implying that only the Apostles could forgive sins, but then again, you backtracked when you said later that it was the Holy Spirit who forgives sins. Again, if Jesus said this only to the Apostles, which is it? It is true that Jesus said this only to His Apostles after he breathed the Holy Spirit in them. Are you saying that He did not say it to the Apostles? And it is true that the Holy Spirit in them is the one who forgives sins because it was never the Apostles who were speaking. It had always been the Holy Spirit in them speaking. Mark 13:11 But when they shall lead [you], and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost. His Apostles were the only one with Him at the time, so yes, He did say this only to them. We read in scripture the following pertaining to the forgiveness of sins. Acts 5:30-32 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus whom you murdered by hanging on a tree. Him God has exalted to His right hand to be Prince and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins. And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him. Here, Jesus forgives and the Holy Spirit, like the Apostles, are witnesses. Acts 13:38-39 Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through this Man is preached to you the forgiveness of sins; and by Him everyone who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses. We are told that through Christ we receive forgiveness of sins. No mention of the Holy Spirit. Acts 26:12-18 “While thus occupied, as I journeyed to Damascus with authority and commission from the chief priests, at midday, O king, along the road I saw a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, shining around me and those who journeyed with me. And when we all had fallen to the ground, I heard a voice speaking to me and saying in the Hebrew language, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.’ So I said, ‘Who are You, Lord?’ And He said, ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. But rise and stand on your feet; for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to make you a minister and a witness both of the things which you have seen and of the things which I will yet reveal to you. I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’ Jesus Himself states clearly to Paul that it is through faith in "Me" (Christ) that one receives forgiveness of sins and an inheritance, not through the Holy Spirit. Ephesians 1:3-14 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved. In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory. In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. Again, forgiveness of sin through Jesus alone. The Holy Spirit did not die on teh cross for our sins, Jesus did. Colossians 1:13-14 He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins. One more time, forgiveness comes through Christ and His sacrifice. When you consider what Christ said to His Apostles, and to us in general, you should see that when we find it in our hearts to forgive someone, they are forgiven by us. Is not God more forgiving that we are? God is not waiting for our permission to forgive, and the Holy Spirit did not die for the remission of anyone's sins. The Father is whom Christ came so we will be reunited with. When Christ left, He sent the Holy Spirit to help us out. The whole point is that the Holy Spirit is here to do the will of the Father, as was Christ when He was here, all pointing us back to the Father. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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